3rd party apps cannot access aGPS on Verizon Palm Pre, Pixi Plus 129
The good news is that we've finally gotten to the bottom of the mysterious location issues that have plagued Verizon webOS users. That's also the bad news.
On Tuesday's PalmCast, I said there were three possible explanations for the location issues on Verizon:
- We are crazy and everything is working fine
- It's a strictly technical issue that can be resolved via technical means
- Verizon is actively denying 3rd party apps full access to GPS
As is often the case with GPS troubleshooting, the real answer is a combination of all three possibilities. 3rd party apps do have full access to GPS and to tower-based location, but there's a third kind of GPS called aGPS - that's assisted GPS. In this context, aGPS means that Verizon's towers are able to provide satellite and other location information to handsets right away, which massively speeds up getting a direct GPS lock. It's of course complicated, but if you want to learn more, our sister-site WMExperts covered the differences between GPS and aGPS two years ago.
We've confirmed with Palm that the root of the issue is that Verizon has a proprietary aGPS system - a system that only VZ Navigator can access on webOS devices. 3rd party apps can still use GPS, of course, but they will first have to use basic tower location and then for an exact fix they'll have to wait for the traditional, slow-to-find-a-fix GPS receiver to find its satellites.
Palm has updated their developer page for GPS with the following:
Some carriers may not support, or may limit access to, Assisted-GPS (A-GPS) for location services. This can dramatically increase the time necessary for an initial position fix. This can be mitigated to some extent by choosing the parameters "responseTime:1" and “accuracy:3” when requesting position information. These settings, when combined with Google Services, will return a low-resolution fix within 30 seconds in most environments. Once the low resolution fix is acquired, updating the location using ‘responseTime:3’ and ‘accuracy:1’ will provide a high resolution location fix when available.
"Some carriers" is of course code for "Verizon." It's a serious bummer all around. It's a bummer for Palm and for the mobile space at large that Verizon is limiting access to their aGPS data for certain devices - we'd be interested in hearing if any Android devices suffer from the same limitations, we bet not. It's a bummer for users, of course, because it means that it is much more difficult to use Google Maps. It's also a bummer for developers - there's a thread up in Palm's forums where it's clear that developers with Location Based apps are getting negative reviews because of an issue they cannot control.
At the end of the day, it's Verizon's network and it's their aGPS data, so demanding they open it up isn't likely to change things. A charitable person might even say you can't fault a company for profiting off of the hard work they've put into their aGPS system. We'd like to say we're in a charitable place right now, but our Verizon Pre Plus phones are still trying to get a location fix.
Thanks to Arthur and Kevin for the tips!
129 Comments
I freaking love the graphic, though. Something about imaginging Google Maps not having a clue where it is amuses me.
I like it too! Now if they could add a traditional map under the icon as if it is searching a paper map trying to find itself :)
lol, that's a great idea. =D
I seem to remember verizon doing the same to blackberry maps a while ago. Makes me glad I pay less for more services through sprint
Stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everybody looks bad...due to Verizon's aGPS which really isn't Verizon's fault. It's nobody's fault? What an unfortunate issue. Does this mean a potential iPhone in June on Verizon would have the same issues? If not, then something is more fishy about the Palm/GPS/Verizon issue.
Not Verizon's fault? There is a way to access aGPS data on the Verizon network if the VZW Navigator for webOS can do it. They have just chosen to now share the capability. They would rather you pay to use their solution when you're already paying $30 for the data abilities what's another $10
Question then: No problems on Sprint? Bell? Other? Or do they work as badly all the time as we do before we tap of VZNavigator?
In other words, do they have good aGPS?
At least I can speak for Sprint -- they provide full access to A-GPS. The only reason not to is to "cripple" other GPS apps.
I have use GPS based apps on Sprint and they work fine. Only time I have issues is when the signal is really weak or if I am "gulp" roaming onto a Verizon tower. Then it is a mess.
No problems with GPS or aGPS on Sprint.
I'm on a Bell Pre and I've had intermittent GPS issues for months. It doesn't work more often that it does. I usually have it turned off to save battery, but there are several apps that I would love to use but can't until this works again. I've seen several threads in the forums discussing this problem. Precentral staff, any word on whether this is similar to the Verizon problem?
I'm on Bell as well, same issues with GPS!
I have a Sprint Pre and my GPS works excellent with all apps including all third party apps. Locates me quickly and precisely.
SPRINT is the answer! Why is it people are so blindly loyal to Verizon? I do not get it.
1 Sprint is CHEAPER BY FAR AND ALL INCLUSIVE UNLIMITED
Unlimited LD, Roaming, Messaging (SMS and MMS), Data, Web, Email, GPS, Navigator, EVERYTHING. Just $69/mo. Or even also unlimited talk for $99, or Unlimited everything on family plans that are way cheaper than Verizon. Why are you paying all that extra money?
2 Sprint is CDMA - same technology as Verizon, same quality calls, same or better coverage (used to not be true bu now it is. And Sprint roams free on Verizon's network too so you get both network's coverage areas for voice and data included FREE
3 Sprint has turned around amazing under its new CEO and has awesome Customer Service and Tech Support
4 Sprint treats Any customer who spends 69/mo or more as a Premier customer with all kinds of perks including the ability to upgrade to a new phone with discounts/free every year instead of every two years, first access to new phones, and much more.
5 Sprint has unlimited calling to ANY mobile phone in the US 24/7.
6 If you travel out of USA to countries that have CDMA (surprise! Lots of countries HAVE CDMA networks and your phone will work. You do not necessarily need GSM for overseas!) then Sprint has a great deal: $50/mo. for unlimited data while overseas. better: It can be prorated for only the dates you will be gone. You will be in another country just ten days? only pay for those ten days, i.e. $16.67 - for uNLIMITED overseas data! This overseas add on also reduces all overseas calls to only 1.50/minute (which is very cheap for using a domestic cell phone in another country, though I usually use only the data on my Pre when I am away. I use ribbit transcribed voicemail and then call back using a calling card or Voxophone, Google Voice etc.
7) and now we learn that not only does Verizon charge for Navigator (!!!) they also restrict their GPS so it cannot be accessed by third party apps. Sprint allows FULL ACCESS TO GPS BY THIRD PARTY APPS.
I could list more. trust me. If you are at Verizon you are just throwing your money down the tube.
If you want to switch to Sprint and feel like helping me get a credit for it, message me, I would be much obliged. But I write this not to get credits but because it is all true and I want to support Sprint because despite a dark past before the current CEO, the new Sprint is truly great.
I believe you only roam for voice for free on Verizon's network, not data. I don't know for sure, but that has been discussed on this site before and that was the consensus. However, perhaps things have changed?
There is a reason that folks may need to stay on Verizon that I don't think was mentioned in your post. My company provides my phone and pays the bill (unless I incur notable overages, then I chip in). I don't have a choice. But Verizon's coverage is the best, of course with voice, Sprint's is, by default, just as good I suppose.
Re: data roaming... It has been discussed before, and it is included (although there may be limits - you probably don't want to move into a roaming-only area and expect to retain service for long periods of time).
Your average user who lives and works in a Sprint-covered area but travels outside should be fine.
You have to enable data roaming after a reset or doctor, but it does roam data. Might be 1x, but I rarely roam off of Sprint.
I agree with ravsteve. I have no clue why Sprint isn't doing better as a company. I'm very happy I have Sprint. Their cellular service is great and customer service just amazes me.
Like right now, Sprint is having a contest for their customers to win an HTC EVO before it comes out.
.. getting back on topic though... I am experiencing no GPS issues with 3rd party apps on my Sprint Palm pre.
My only complaint is GPS relies on cellular service. So if you're lost deep in the woods with no cell service then you can't get GPS to help you either. :( This should not be the case.
@janter
Not true on GPS. Try this...
1. Go into Location Services and disable GPS and Google Location.
2. Put Pre in Airplane mode.
3. Try to browse the net\make a call to confirm all radios are off.
4. Open phone app.
5. Key in "##477#" (aka ##gps#)
6. Press "Get Fix"
The tool WILL return your Lat & Long FROM the gps chip all alone w\o assistance from and of the radios. For some reason, the apps are coded\can only use aGps to get a fix??
The apps get their map data over the data network. So even if you/your app could get your GPS fix from the satellites using the GPS chip (as opposed to aGPS using cell tower triangulation), if the data connection was bad and the map was not already cached for your current location, the app can't show you where you are on a map.
So what could you do with GPS coordinates if you were lost in the woods without a data connection but with voice? Call someone and have them look up your position for you.
If you had neither voice nor data, the info would only help if you had a paper map with you that had lat/long coordinates listed on it.
You know, it could be more than just a carrier thing that people go to Verizon.
It's been noted that the Plus's slider is quite a bit better than the original Pre's, and that the lack of the center button is (generally) more aesthetically pleasing (and more usable).
"and now we learn that not only does Verizon charge for Navigator (!!!) they also restrict their GPS so it cannot be accessed by third party apps. Sprint allows FULL ACCESS TO GPS BY THIRD PARTY APPS."
It isn't GPS they aren't allowing access to, it's just aGPS. There's a big difference.
And then, there is the perennial counter; Verizon's coverage is simply better for more people.
For you, it might not make a difference, but my friends on Sprint get HORRIBLE coverage where I live, and roaming 1x on Verizon's towers (if that is the maximum) isn't going to cut it.
Sprint roams on Verizon's EVDO. There is no data difference. And since Sprint roams on Verizons coverage coverage for voice and data is identical.
For those who are stick because your employer provides your phone, you should talk to your employer and tell them how they can save a lot of money.
Yes I do agree however the Plus is a better Pre. Of course that will be irrelevant this summer when Sprint gets either the Plus or the next generation WebOS phone.
I've tried suggesting our company could save money. They said the don't trust the coverage on another network. I mentioned that Sprint roams on Verizon's network then necessary, but they don't quite buy that, especially regarding the data roaming. So, you see Sprint is still not an option for me...sorry.
I know I mentioned earlier that I think you only roam for voice, NOT data, and others have said no to that, but I'm not fully convinced yet.
I haven't searched for it, but I distinctly remember there was a discussion on this, and that the consensus was that not only did Sprint only have access to voice on Verizon's towers, that they only got the last dregs of the signal if there were a bunch of Verizon users using that tower. Again, I'm not sure about this, but I didn't make that up all on my own...I'm not THAT creative! ;)
hear, hear!
My apps on Sprint work great with GPS. My Navigation app, Google Maps, and all other GPS location apps have worked really well with speed of service and pinning down my location within a few feet.
(There has been one or two apps I have used that seem to get the distance off more than they should, but I believe that is a problem with their programing as 98% of the 3rd party apps work great.)
There has been a few times that I wanted Verizon for the coverage, but I am unwilling to pay aprox. twice as much for my wife and I and now with the GPS issue I am even more glad I have Sprint as MANY of the apps I use are location based and they work well and fast.
I'm on Sprint and my GPS works fine all the time. There might be a time or 2 I can remember since I bought the Pre on release day in June that the GPS glitched but it was for a brief moment and was back to pin pointing with eirie accuracy where I was. Sorry everyone on big red... But that reminded me why I stayed at Sprint and their CDMA network when their phones sucked and their customer service sucked worse. The wait was worth it because now they have good phones, customer service kicked up back to friendly and helpful 90% of the time and the pricing plans are awesome with goodies like GPS thrown in for no additional costs.
I've been trying to figure out how the VZ Navigator app does it's GPS thing. So far, I've determined that when the app calls the GPS service, it passes 2 additional parameters (host and port) that are undocumented and (to this point) not acknowledged by Palm. I've created a quick app that shows GPS tracking and also includes these 2 parameters. If you're a developer and want more details, contact me through PM (at moserjj). I have no idea if this makes any difference whatsoever, but I find it very interesting that Palm won't respond to it and VZ Navigator can magically use aGPS using the standard GPS api call.
I'd say there's no magic here. I'm betting there's some money or legal muscle preventing something from being done on either side of the issue.
nxd10: I'm on Sprint, and no problems here.
I think I missed something - why exactly wouldn't Android devices be affected by the same problem?
Possibly money and legal muscle.
VZW has ALWAYS crippled devices in this way. Hell, they didn't let BlackBerries use GPS AT ALL until relatively recently.
yeah this isn't anything new, but I can bet my last dollar turn by turn works fine on the droid.
Now you have 2 last dollars...assuming you went for double or nothing! The turn by turn is stellar on the DROID (Motorola). I've used it many times and love it. Verizon apparently lets Android v2.0 have any GPS system data it wants....but for webOS we are crippled.
No problems with GPS or aGPS on Sprint.
I am on Sprint and YP and Google maps take forever to boot since 1.4. Anyone else?
I don't use GM very oftern, but I did last weekend and it took several minutes to fire up and show me the address I was looking for.
I was not impressed.
Not the device's fault. Google maps on WebOS is more of a web page than an actual application. Lame. It runs nicer on my old blackberry curve, for frak's sake.
Yell at Google's crappy support of our platform. You'll notice that sprintnav works pretty well. If we could get a decent map and search on that, I'd ditch google maps and ypmobile entirely.
They used to work great before the upgrade.
Ditto. On Sprint and pre-1.4 Google Maps was rocking. Now it takes twenty seconds to start. And that's with overclocking.
I just think Google is no longer supporting webos.
User: "Can you find me now?"
Verizon: "Not unless you're VZ Navigator."
I have a Bell Pre with Sprint Nav and I have no problems using 3rd party apps which use GPS. There was a brief period of time of about 2 weeks when Bell's aGPS system seemed pretty unreliable for some reason but that is now ancient history.
Very happy Bell Pre user here!
How did you get Spring NAV on your Bell Phone? Please show me the forum where it tells you how? Would like to give it a try, Google Maps down not give me Turn by turn directions which my Wife and I would both love.
Thanks
Am I the only one who read this and thought, "I'll bet homebrew finds a way to fix this?"
I read it as Verizon only lets aGPS for people who pay for VZ navigator... so unless homebrew pays for you to use VZ navigator you cant get the aGPS information.
Not true - there is a workaround.
If you are getting a bad GPS signal, go to VZ Navigator and tap it. Refuse it when it asks you to pay. This accesses aGPS and you will get a good signal in Mapquest that lasts until you reboot your phone.
Mapquest???? I wasn't aware they had an app. Where can I get it?
Google Maps is the best
True that.
Double true.
My biggest question is, if Verizon can drop the charge on their WiFi Hotspot feature which was $40 a month. Why wont they do the same for VZ Navigator? Wouldnt this make them more competitve, especially since Sprint offers their service FREE already?
On my old phone-phone, you used to be able to pay $3 for the service for 2 days, which was sometimes worth it if you were on a trip. Not on the pre.
Mobile Hotspot being free for a (relatively) few Palm Pre customers isn't much, but what about the massive number of folks with dumbphones who currently pay for VZnav? They won't give that away for free.
They charge so much money for their services already, they could at LEAST lower the price. I am getting unlimited everything, except minutes (which with mobile-mobile does not matter) for my wife and myself, and with insurance on each phone for just over $120. With Verizon I would be over 2 hundred for similar options.
I am on an O2 Pre in the UK and I have no problems, never have.
Bell Canada, my gps works just fine. Never had a problem.
I have Sprint and YPMobile and google maps open within a few seconds, GPS is fast and accurate. I like the Sprint Nav with itLs voice turn by turn directions which is included free in there unlimted plan for 69.99 a month, no need for Google maps
Occasionlly I use Google Maps when Sprint Navigation can't get a signal, but it's not very often. I don't use Navigation incredibly often, cause I hardly ever venture off the beaten path, but its nice for getting a rough idea of how long a drive is going to take, and it's free so there's definitely no gripes here. Plus I'm driving to Ohio in a month, and I've never been there before, so it'll come in quite handy then, I would say.
Don't forget your charger!!!
Oh yes! And bringing my Touchstone, too, for good measure!
As VZW likes to say: "It's the Network!"
...that's causing issues, in this case.
The reason we are interested in hearing if any Android devices suffer from the same limitations is because if the Android programs that use agps or gps work perfectly, then Verizon open the doors for Google Android and single out Palm to not give their device access. Guess we will find out what "DROID DOES"
From Phil's Droid Incredible review:
"GPS: The Incredible can pinpoint your location with full assisted GPS, and it can use WiFi and cell towers to get a ballpark location and help speed satellite acquisition. In our testing, either way worked fast in Google Maps."
My company's after hours emergency phone is a Moto DROID. I have it with me from time to time. The Google Navigation works wonderfully...pretty much flawlessly. I believe Verizon has allowed Android phones to have FULL functionality, and has crippled webOS phones. Only when I run VZ navigator in the background do I get the accurate and relatively quick lock.
This is not a court of law, but the evidence is becoming overwhelming against Verizon. How do we effectively confront this issue now?
"Guess we will find out what "DROID DOES"" RIGHT WORDS WOULD BE, NOW WE KNOW WHY "DROID DOES". AND PRE DOES NOT...
Wow, Verizon hates Palm!
Slightly on-topic, in-case it helps anyone. I'm currently using a VZW BB Tour (eagerly waiting for AT&T to sell me a Pre) --> have found the VZW BB spotty when using GPS. Google maps seems to work 80% of the time, but, other apps like Trapster and YPMobile never manage to acquire a GPS location.
I have about the same experience on my at&t blackberry curve...
Then Verizon really should reimburse us for any 3rd party GPS apps we've bought and been unable to use thanks to them.
I'm really surprised that talks of lawsuits are always shot down when this convo comes up. To me it sounds like a clear cut case of Verizon misleading the devs from the start. Did Verizon ever officially state what they were doing? I think not, since PC has had to clear the air with an article. It would be interesting to see if anyone takes Verizon to task on this.... Or if somebody already has, yet failed. This situation irks me all over. There really should be some regulatory agency that can fine and force Verizon into complying with giving opportunities to all devices. Their actions only serve to benefit Google, and just recently BB, and of course themselves.
Completely agreed. If I had the time and money to hire a lawyer, I would. But I'll sign any petition you send my way without hesitation.
I have a Verizon Pre Plus. I've found that since 1.4.1, if I open VZ Navigator, don't buy it and then open another GPS enabled app, it works well. Even indoors.
It is frustrating that Verizon blocks this. I've worked with Verizon professionally and they want to maximize as much revenue as possible. They are a behemoth trying to get everything they can.
Have you tried this recently? My VZ Navigator wont even open without buying it. My app opens to a offer screen, if you decline to buy the app closes. What does yours do?
It's open now. I didn't have any issue opening it. VZ Navigator is at the "BUY" "DECLINE" screen.
Okay so you are considering the app to be open when you see the offer screen????? This is confusing to me because the app used to open with an option to allow it to access GPS, now it does not do this. Since I have not changed my GPS setting to auto locate, I would assume that VZ Nav. should not be locking my position from this offer screen. Does anybody else agree with my logic?
Just start VZ Navigator. Don't decline, don't accept. Just leave that first page up, then open google maps...I think after a short bit you will be surprised at the accurate position...walk down the street, your little blue dot moves with you. Before I tried opening VZ Nav I would get a 'lock' within a mile of my location, and it wouldn't move unless I drove a good bit down the road, then it would lock onto a new tower and sit there for a while.
Okay finally got a lock!! I think I was being too impatient, and you're right I am surprised at how accurate it is! Thanks!!
I just opened VZ Navigator, declined, and got a perfect indoor GPS signal in GoogleMaps within 10 seconds.
We're in a rural area. It actually has never failed and I've never waited longer than 20 seconds for the lock.
Devs - app or patch to do this in the background whenever a GPS app is activated?
love the charitable place pun.
Also glad to have a Sprint Pre
it sucks to be a verizon customer, not being able to use simple features on your phone ah? again that is what you get when you get brain wash by verizon subpart service.
Had and Incedible for a day on Verizon. Google maps acquired an extremely accurate position, and instantly after maps was opened. The real question is why does Androids maps work on Verizon but not Palm?? WTF.
perhaps money and or legal muscle
Ah Verizon.... Just another reason why I'm glad to be a Sprint user. Thanks for letting me roam your towers every once in a while though. :-)
Amen.
Here is where I call BS on Verizon for false advertising. Here is the list of features they have on their site currently for the pixi plus:
# Instant Messaging for Google Talk and AOL
# VZ Navigator Capable
# Assisted & Standalone GPS
# View Microsoft Word, Excel
OK, so here's the deal. I was about to say that if it truly is aGPS obtaining the info and not GPS, then it's not Verizon's fault, because they figured out a way, using their own equipment, to enhance the phone. Is it slimy of them to block aGPS so users are not able to take advantage of enhancing a phone on their network, sure. But reality is, they fixed what Palm didn't get right on GPS.
HOWEVER, since Verizon has advertised GPS & aGPS with no asterisk or any side-bar notice on that specific label saying "in order to get aGPS, you will need to pay a subscription fee", that puts them at fault, for developers or anyone else using the device.
I'm not lawsuit crazy, but when companies run deceptive tactics, it can bother enough people to warrant them to be upset about it.
Either way you look at it, GPS on the Pre Plus just doesn't work because without opening VZ Nav, I never get a signal; and I have waited outside in clear skies for about 30 minutes with my GPS apps open. So Palm needs to fix this ASAP.
From what the article says, this isn't something that Palm can fix. What Verizon is doing - crippling the GPS feature selectively - is wrong. The most effective way to fix that is with a lawsuit.
The word '&' in this sentence is the key here. If they had put 'or', then this argument would be moot. Definitely misleading. I can't see how they could expect the Pre to be a success when they purposefully hamper an advertised feature.
As the developer of the foursquare app, this both angers me and makes me happy.
It makes me happy because this explains why a lot of my users on Plus model phones have issues with the app and points out that it isn't something I can control.
On the other hand, it angers me because it's something I can't control and I'll continue to receive bad reviews from uninformed users. Great. Guess I'll have to mention this fact in the app description now.
Yes I think ALL developers should mention in the app descriptions that do to Verizon limiting certain GPS features that Verizon customers will get sub par performance. And that they should contact Verizon to complain.
Dieter - thanks for this update. Based on what you have written, it seems as if we should have "Use Google Services" checked under Location Services.
Other posts have indicated that it is best not to use "Google Services". Should we use it or not?
You would think with charging the extra $$$ for data that Big Red would have at least things with GPS/aGPS a little more welcoming. I'm sure if this is a problem with webOS devices it's a problem w/ Android and WinMo.
Thank gosh for Sprint because I have no problems w/ the Nav app. Now google maps...that app just sucks - at least the webOS version. Google needs to update that thing badly!!!
I don't think Android has a problem accessing all GPS functionality. Google Navigation works flawlessly on the MOTOROLA DROID. It is wonderful, love the voice search feature...I can't speak to WinMo devices, but the DROID has full access to GPS, and I assume aGPS. It just works. I think VZW has crippled the GPS/aGPS for webOS.
I wonder how hard it will be for someone to find a workaround for this. The code that's used for aGPS is in there somewhere, right? What would prevent a homebrew developer from accessing it?
I think someone mentioned the code above... But I wonder if there would be legal problems with Verizon then?
It's worth pointing out this post from the forums: http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre-tips-information-resources/206982-...
The post describes how to enable additional GPS modes on the Pre, including cached information, which drastically speeds up the phone's ability to get a fix quickly. (Though Verizon might have caching turned on already, since it sounds like they have standalone GPS enabled, which is not the case with Sprint.)
Verizon promised over a year ago to stop crippling GPS on its smartphones. Check it out - and while the article focuses on the Omnia, it quotes a memo released from Verizon that should provide support for our position on the Pre Plus.
http://www.intomobile.com/2008/12/18/verizon-wireless-promises-unlocked-...
anyone bad mouthing sprint and tmobile as "small" carriers take note. This will be your mobile life without the existence of sprint and tmobile, pay more, get less from the two big guys.
lol ... been a Sprint user on Palm devices since the first Palm device was available... always got my job done on Palm w/SPRINT network.
Google maps gets my location to within a few feet if I turn on Wifi. Weird. I wonder why it works then, but not when data is through Verizon's 3G network?
FYI doing my part by convincing family and friends to go PRE on Sprint... up to 10 new PRE / Sprint users since June 2009.. This article helps answer the question... "Why not sign up with Verizon????"..."Cuz it just doesn't work as well as when on SPRINT!"
AT&T Remains to be reviewed on this site...
Verizon users have many good reasons to stick with Verizon, and Sprint users have many good reasons to stick with Sprint. Rather than wasting time and space bashing carriers, perhaps we could simply work on the problem at hand.
My other half has a Droid - and Google Maps works flawlessly, without any VZNav. Pretty sure location based apps work too - but I will double check. For what we pay for service and data - using things that are built into our devices really shouldn't be a fight...
Well my unlocked Nokia works extremely well with built in Nokia Mapping and google maps-although the voice enabled map search was just enabled-that works great also. In fact, Google maps pinpoints my location indoors/outdoors almost instantly AGPS then finds GPS sats in about 30 seconds more. I couldn't ask for better performance.
On the Pre/Pixi at ATT: I am sure ATT-after all it's their phone-will do the same thing that Verizon has done. I truly want the ATT Pre to work with Google maps and other providers, but we'll have to wait and see. I'll probably get one anyway!
Do we know if Verizon has aGPS deployed to all towers in all markets? I was thinking that might be an explanation for why some are having GPS issues, and others (including me) are not...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGPS
Coming from the recent BlackBerry crowd, I had a Tour and a Storm2 both that used Google Maps perfectly. There is NO reason that this shouldn't be fixable. BlackBerry, Android, and probably all newest Windows phones use full aGPS for Google Maps.
Face it, us Verizon Palm users got screwed.
Hey Sprint people, I'm not sure I'd count slightly better GPS functionality as a valid offset against having inferior hardware and a lesser network.
I've always found GPS to work fine, just rather slow to get going. Everyone is right, it really does work MUCH faster if I open VZNav first even just sitting at the offer screen.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blindly supporting Verizon here - I'm rather dismayed to find out that Verizon is doing this. Hopefully now that it's out in the open Verizon will be forced to officially unlock full GPS functionality.
Slightly inferior hardware... Yes... For now.
But I pay about $80 less/month for unlimited text/data on 4 phones AND I have very little network issues (while traveling). In fact Verizon in my area is actually worse than Sprint.
I am a Sprint customer. I have the same GPS problems that are reported for Verizon customers. There are many like me, according to another thread that took a survey of Sprint customers the other day. Does this mean that Sprint shares some of Verizon's towers?
Yeah, I think Sprint is leasing the towers from Verizon. TMobile does the same with AT&T's towers. (I think)
Basically there are two networks, and all or most of the service providers share them.
I'm glad to be with Sprint :) Never had any issue with GPS. It works in downtown Philly where my tomtom gets confused.
I had a Samsung Omnia WM6 before my pre and verizon had disabled all GPS access to third party apps, so I guess some access is better than none. I will consider it a trade-off for free wifi hotspot.
Roaming onto Verizon towers wouldn't be the issue since I can do a reset and Sprint GPS will again locate precisely. Unfortunately, I guess I'm one of the few remaining Sprint Pre users with intermittant GPS problems. Not too big a deal if I can plan ahead.
Here's the text of the email I just sent to VZW. I'm sure this will change their minds :)
I'm writing to urge you to allow WebOS (Palm Pre Plus / Pixi Plus) applications to access the assisted-GPS (aGPS) capabilities provided by these phones.
As a Palm Pre Plus owner, and someone who constantly praises Verizon to anyone who'll listen, I was disappointed to read today that Verizon does not allow applications (other than VZ Navigator) to access aGPS. Apparently, this is not a technical issue, but a market-driven decision. This means that people who want to use third-party applications like Google Maps can only get less accurate GPS location instead of aGPS.
What's worse, you don't treat all customers equally in this regard. It turns out that, had I bought a Droid, I wouldn't have this issue. That wasn't at all clear in your marketing materials, which said that the Palm Pre Plus offered aGPS without mentioning that Verizon had decided to cripple it in all applications but one.
Please consider changing this policy by opening up aGPS access to all WebOS applications. Please respond to this email if at all possible. Thank you.
It's great you took some action. The only thing that confused me was the line "...can only get less accurate GPS location instead of aGPS".
GPS location (using GPS chip and satellites) is MORE accurate than getting location using aGPS. The advantage of aGPS is that the initial location fix is faster (almost immediate) because it does not have to wait for the GPS chip to get a satellite lock.
ouch!!! I tried to stay far away from blaming VZW....Until now!
FREE MY PRE
Petition anyone?
Yesterday and today I have noticed better performance on my Pre Plus' VZW GPS. Are they maybe doing something about this? We want free Navigator!!!!
This really does make me made but at this point in time I got to stick with VZW. The only reason is that they allow tethering or the hotspot with this phone and it's included in the price. I need the tethering because that's my only internet option. I was with Sprint and loved them and I've been hounding them over and over to provide the service and they won't. The price difference for me is enough to move to verizion. While I'm not happy and I would never recommend verizon to anyone it (at this time) is my only real choice. As much as I liked sprint if they don't have what I need I can't stay with them.
makes sense... For me it takes a few minutes to get a fix. Even with ##477#. Here I was thinking it was because I was opening "App A" before "App B" etc. Probably finding sats all that time. One I get the initial fix, things work great... That said, I wish it was sooner.
And to all the Sprint-ters... My signal was horrible where I lived. I had no choice. When I was outside on a clear day and it would fluctuate from "no signal" to 1x w/ one bar, that was unacceptable. In Chicago no less... Verizon seems to give me overall better coverage. Wish it weren't the case, but it is.
First let me say that I am very unhappy about this situation and want it corrected.
But for those bashing VZW for increasing their revenue stream let me point out some information.
VZW is part owned by Vodaphone. VZW has to "Feed the Beast" (Vodaphone)because as a partner they demand a certain return on their investment.
Large and very reliable networks are not cheap. Ever. There is a real cost associated building and maintaining this network and, as with all businesses expenses, the cost is passed on to the consumer. This always happens unless the company wishes to go out of business.
Sprint's business model does not seem to be working out well as seen by the constant reports in the business news. Better for the customer right up until they go under.
Just my $.02
makes sense... For me it takes a few minutes to get a fix. Even with ##477#. Here I was thinking it was because I was opening "App A" before "App B" etc. Probably finding sats all that time. One I get the initial fix, things work great... That said, I wish it was sooner.
And to all the Sprint-ters... My signal was horrible where I lived. I had no choice. When I was outside on a clear day and it would fluctuate from "no signal" to 1x w/ one bar, that was unacceptable. In Chicago no less... Verizon seems to give me overall better coverage. Wish it weren't the case, but it is.
I was a longtime satisfied loyal customer of Verizon until I got a blackberry in 2008 and ran into this issue. Luckily I discovered it during my initial trial period on the new contract. What really galled me was the way they lied and insulted my intelligence over it. First they claimed the GPS was only for emergency location services, not apps. When I pointed out that their $10/month navigator could use it they hemmed and hawed and tried to deny it was crippled. I returned both my and my wife's phone plus a data card and cancelled all contracts and moved to Sprint. Over this issue Verizon lost my business that had been worth over $200/month for many years. When I explained to the store personell why I was returning and cancelling they said the didn't blame me.
I never looked back at Verizon and in nearly two years with Sprint I've had better coverage, better service, it's cheaper and all the features on my phones work.
I'd like to chime in here with another possible workaround to A-GPS
Obviously, here in the U.S., those of us who have the Palm Pre Plus through Verizon have quite a bit of trouble "waking" the GPS chips in our phones. The thing is, I think using the term "waking" to describe the problem is incorrect. I think it's waking just fine. It seems to me that the GPS is "forgetful".
A real GPS unit does not need to rely on A-GPS. It stores known satellite information in NVRAM so that, on subsequent uses, it can obtain a lock again very quickly. The first time you turn one on, however, it can take up to 15 minutes or more for it to find that first satellite then seek out its neighbors. The only time it ever has to do this again is if you turn it on hundreds of miles away from the last location it was used. Then it becomes lost and it has to start from scratch again.
This damn Pre GPS does not play by the same rules as truly dedicated GPS devices, caching nearby satellites in NVRAM. There apparently is no real NVRAM associated with the Pre GPS. It only retains local satellite information for a short while. This is proven by getting a good lock, doing a Luna reset and restarting the GPS application. Reacquisition is practically instantaneous. Try it again the next day and it's lost again, usually taking a long time to lock again. It's not that the GPS didn't "wake". It's just lost. A-GPS does not work as it should on the Pre either. If it did it would be able to associate local satellites to nearby cell towers almost as quickly as a restart.
If one could figure out a way to emulate the NVRAM function in software, store the satellite info on the usb drive and reload it back to the GPS chip upon launch, he'd be a f----ng HERO! Not to mention it would be the only Pre GPS app in the world to solve a very annoying problem EVERY Verizon customer has with their Pre GPS service.
So the question is: Can it be done? and.... Can you do it?
Brand new webOS 1.4.5 (at least for Verizon Wireless), but the same old GPS crap. After two months waiting for a new webOS, you would think someone would fix this problem. It can't be rocket science level stuff. Getting the satelites up in orbit yes, making GPS work down here, no.
It's time to fire up the Ski Mask guy again.
I'm thinking it's location related (tower hardware)? I have no issues with VZ and GPS (northern lower Michigan). Use Google a lot, Mapping Tool, Send My Location. With occasional bad cell service here my location is sometimes at the tower, but soon I'm right on my front porch. Worked with 1.4.0, 1.4.1.1 and 1.4.5 (no patches, no "fixes", vanilla software). And I don't use Navigator. When VZ says no problem, they're saying not where they're sitting.
I have been having major issues with GPS (lack of it!) in the Chicago area since Monday- anyone else experiencing new issues? Worked fine before that and when I was in other cities. (I have Verizon)
What is the latest on this issue? I bought this phone because of the ease of the mobile hotspot, but I really wanted a turn-by-turn GPS application. Beyond spending the $10 a month through VZ Nav, is there a real solution?
Thanks.