4S, BBX, RAZR, and Ice Cream Sandwich – oh my [the competition] | webOS Nation

4S, BBX, RAZR, and Ice Cream Sandwich – oh my [the competition] 99

by Derek Kessler Wed, 19 Oct 2011 9:59 am EDT

This week has been one of the more insane weeks in the mobile tech space, and that’s saying a lot, since it’s only now Wednesday morning. We’ll start with Monday, which was dominated by our friend Rene Ritchie’s epic review of the new iPhone 4S (S standing for Super). Rene’s conclusion: “Apple has produced an incredibly compelling upgrade from feature phones, and the iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS. iPhone 4 owners have little reason to upgrade unless speed, camera, or Siri are unusually important to them.” The same can be said of current webOS device owners on Sprint – early adopter Palm Pre owners are well past their two year mark, and those that picked up the Palm Pixi within the first month of availability are also eligible for an upgrade on Sprint. With any future webOS phones on Sprint a distant hazy “maybe,” it’s hard to discourage anyone from pulling the trigger on an iPhone 4S.

That was Monday. “Hard to discourage” still rings true, but for the webOS fan the options became many on Tuesday. The day started with Research in Motion’s BlackBerry Dev Con, where they announced the next generation phone/tablet platform BBX, but failed to deliver any specifics, except to say that it’s going to be all sorts of graphically rich with a new UI called Cascades. We also got our first official look at the PlayBook OS 2.0 developer beta and RIM opened the floodgates on their PlayBook Android Player Repackaging Tools used to, well, repackage Android apps for the PlayBook (Waterloo loves them some descriptive titles). No new hardware, or even a demo of BBX, so a little bit of a let down.

Simultaneously, Motorola was getting busy in New York City, unveiling the Droid RAZR, and like its sexy featurephone namesake, this is one thin phone. The Droid RAZR is essentially a Droid Bionic, but one that Motorola managed to somehow slim down to a ridiculous 7.1mm thin everywhere but the camera bump at the top. The body is made of steel and Kevlar with a Gorilla Glass front and splash-guarded internals (so you can get it wet, though we wouldn’t recommend full-on submersion). The quick specs run-down: a 4.3” 540x960 Super AMOLED Advanced display, dual-core 1.2GHz processor, 1GB RAM, 16GB storage, 8.1MP camera, and CDMA/LTE. In a 7.1mm body. It’s insanely thin.

But the Android camp was not yet done for the day: Hong Kong still called. As if the Droid RAZR wasn’t enough, Samsung and Google had to show-up Google-owned Motorola with the Samsung Galaxy Nexus and Android 4.0, otherwise known as Ice Cream Sandwich (nom). The Galaxy Nexus is another hot piece of kit, with a 4.65-inch 1280x720 Super AMOLED screen (with HD resolution!), a 5MP camera, dual-core 1.2GHz processor, 1GB RAM, 16/32GB storage, and HSPA+ or LTE, all packed into a 8.94mm body. It’s thin, but not Droid RAZR thin.

The real story is Android 4.0, which in many ways will look familiar to the webOS user. And that’s in no small part thanks to UI designed Matias Duarte, who left Palm for Google about a year-and-a-half ago. Since then he’s worked a little bit of magic on Android 3.0 Honeycomb, but saved the real UI work for Ice Cream Sandwich. What we have here is a lot of webOS, from a multitasking cards-style layout (it’s become so ubiquitous we doubt HP can laying any patent claim to it anymore) that scrolls vertically and dismisses horizontally, individually dismissable notifications, a music player-controlling notification widget, a buttonless design, and Android Beam device-to-device NFC sharing. Yeah, that looks really quite familiar. Duarte’s work ensures that webOS users will be more than comfortable with Android 4.0, not to mention making it looks all sorts of smooth and clean (another thing of which we are fans).

So there you have it. The iPhone 4S, BlackBerry BBX, PlayBook OS 2.0, the Droid RAZR, Galaxy Nexus, and Android 4.0 are all ready to scoop up the remnants of the webOS userbase. It’s getting harder and harder to justify sticking it out on an aging platform with a questionable future. Who are we kidding? We’ll be here until the bitter end (which is hopefully far far away).


Man, H/P couldnot have competed against these, I wish they had outsourced hardware to Samsung, motorolla and HTC. It would have been a different picture today. Android 4.0 looks so similar to webOS

For me android 4.0 comes closest to webOS, so I am thinking of moving to android. I like windows too, but want google maps and google emails. Wish android had facebook integration instead of google plus integration.

Actually, Google has Facebook integration as well. In Google, you can share photos, etc, with Twitter, Facebook, Google Plus, etc.

Although contact integration is left to HTC devices with Sense. Ever since Nexus S 2.3.3(ish) update, Facebook contact sync has been pulled from Android's core OS.

Fear not my friend! Google mentioned that anyone would be able to take advantage of the new API's for things like the people app and other core apps. it would be foolish for Facebook to neglect these API's, so I would fully expect Facebook integration going just about as deep as Google+ integration in a short deal of time.

With Android 4.0 it seems like they have pretty much all the parts of Synergy/Account management copied (except perhaps the intuitive automatic matching of contacts). That's what was really unique with webOS, so now I'm getting ready to jump ship, after a Pre, Pre2, Pre3 and a TP.

ANy one knows how does super amoled advance differs from super amoled plus?

I see WebOSroundup is claiming that the rest of the WebOS engineers will be let go at the end of the month, so the end might be sooner than people think.

With these new incredible pieces of hardware and software, one would be crazy to think that the HP Pre 3 could hold it's own. Anyone that refutes that is in absolute denial at this point.

As a former webOS fanboy (June 6, 2009 - October 5, 2011) and the former owner of a Palm Pre, HP TouchPad, and Palm Pre 2, being a fanboy only hurts you as a consumer. You shouldn't have to live life making up for webOS's and HP's shortcomings.

Sometimes it's just time to move on and fondly remember the good 'ole days of webOS glory.

The Pre3 could hold it's own... against devices released in April. (I'm totally agreeing with you btw, I'm just reinforcing your point). Theoretically the Pre3 is plenty fine for most people. It has everything I want (except for NFC): fairly quick processor, enough RAM, a decent resolution, front facing camera, auto focus camera, compass.

The problem comes in to comparing it to the devices it was released against. Just compare it to the Samsung Galaxy S2. It's worse by leaps and bounds in many categories (processor, RAM, cameras, NFC). It's hard to justify not giving up a little (and that's debatable) in the OS department and lose out on all the huge benefits in the hardware department.

I was (and still am actually) sad about having to leave webOS (probably will do it this weekend), but seeing Ice Cream Sandwich is making me a bit excited about switching to Android. At least Android is improving release by release.

If webOS manages to survive (let's not kid ourselves on the chances), then I'll go back once they make a decent device. But let's look at how things look. If HP decides to go back to it... we've seen how HP handled webOS before. (Spoiler: with great incompetence). Samsung, HTC both passed. Amazon is unlikely due to how much they sunk into making their own Android market. It just doesn't look good and if I'm going to wait for a good webOS phone, I might as well wait while using an actual good phone.

"...if I'm going to wait for a good webOS phone, I might as well wait while using an actual good phone."

this is exactly how many of us felt a year ago when jumping to Evo and Epic as the diehard webos fanboys accused us of treason and were talking about rumors how a superphone was coming in september, coming soon, coming, coming...

considering that my sprint pre runs quick and smooth and does A LOT, why didn't hp get any of the patches run natively as part of the os?

I'm just so disappointed by hp, and will stay away from their products for killing webos.

For a basic smartphone user like me who doesn't need a multimedia phone with a lot of whistles and bells, a Pre 3 would have been perfect for me. So disappointed I'll never own one. UI is very important to me though.

Pre3 and TP were amazing back in February when they were announced. Even today 1.5GHz on the TP is not bad at all! Whatever HP did all this time is just mind numbing! No carrier support? No problem - offer Pre3 unlocked directly. 1.4GHz among 1GHz would have been something, but today not so much.

I wish Google or at least HTC bought Palm, but NO! HP had to step in... ugh!

i LOVE the synergy integration on my Sprint Pre. In fact i LOVE how beautiful an CLEAN webOS is. WebOS just needed more functionality.

yeah pre 3 didnt' stand a chance to me. not just the old dated hardware form factor but even the software. i mean i compare the camera app in android that's full featured with all kinds of extras like to the pretty pedestrian webos one and don't think there's much comparison. i compare the full featured mail app on android with the pretty mediocre basic webos email app and i don't think a nuetral person would choose a vertical slider webos phone over those android features in a slab or whatever for factor they want.

Although I appreciate mobile news...when I come to this site I expect to read things about hp/palm/webos. I realize news is relatively quiet but these types of articles really dont belong here imo.
In other news that update to the touchpad (still ahead of android tablets) really was more than a camera app from my standpoint as overall performance is snappy even without an OC. Nice work webOS team.

yeah well they are just trying to help us transition from a dead platform to whatever is out there. i appreciate this and please keep it up with the comparisons as webos is dead.

PreCentral has always* had [the competition] articles giving us a heads up on, eh, the competition..

* I think :)

TAT is very good at demoing but RIM never seems to deliver anything they demo. I don't think this will change in the near future. RIM is quickly become a vaporware shop.

Ice cream Sandwich is probably the best UI I've seen from Android but still feels messy and unintuitive.

The iPhone 4s is really just about Siri. Updated camera will still likely produce the same blurry shots everyone takes, until some later date when they incorporate Adobe's unblur filter. The reality is that most people aren't going to take advantage of any of the upgrades or potential of the phone.

I'm becoming a curmudgeon in my old age. None of the phones I've seen lately really excite me or capture my imagination. It's like ooh look another gray/black slab, ooh another gray/black slab but this one has .15 inch more screen, ooh another gray/black slab but this one has an extra megapixel/megahertz/gigabyte. I might as well be choosing between tires with all of the "variety" these phones provide. Do I want the black ones or the whitewalls.

The thing that makes me sad is for all the problems of the "competition", everything they're doing and have done is head and shoulders above Palm/HP.

They've basically stumbled around making gaffe after gaffe. Palm is a partly understandable because they were fighting early on when people weren't sure what was going on. Some (not all though) of the mistakes they made would be hard to see without having the power of hindsight.

HP though, I think is unforgivable. If they just looked at the market they should've done things very differently.

I'd rather have to pick between 5 brand new, top of the line webOS devices that are almost identical than pick from 1 modern device (which very few people like) and just the backlog of old devices.

I agree with everything you said. It amazes me how companies make money considering all of the failures that occur even with "successful" products. It just comes down to how much pain the consumer is willing to deal with and how beholden they are to a particular company. One significant barrier to picking the best product is carrier lock-in and 2 year contracts. Without it I think we might see a different market place.

It reminds me of the healthcare industry. There's nothing in the industry that requires any process be made easy or usable. Healthcare sites are on average between HORRIBLE and USELESS. The problem is... everyone needs healthcare and they're usually tied to the healthcare via their employer, so it's not easy to switch, which means companies usually have a 3-5 year lock on a group of users with zero incentive to improve the product offerings. They make money in spite of themselves most often.

TAT conceptual demo's are never meant to be productized anyway.

TAT actually did a lot of work on the Playbook's UI --- that are invisible to the naked eye.

Before RIM bought TAT, all the Playbook UI's were swf flash animations. Then TAT completely rewrote the UI into native c codes. The UI looked the exactly same --- but it is actually completely different.

Went to the Sprint store last week to explore my options for when my Pre dies, and came out unimpressed, not enough real variety.

One thing to note in thisismynext's preview was the lagginess of the samsung nexus, Looks like the cards interface and synergy is resource intensive across platforms except QNX.

That was Vlad's opinion. Josh had an entirely different experience as did Engadget. Not one video demo of ICS I've seen has struck me as laggy or stuttery.

That being said, I'm befuddled as to why Samsung's Galaxy S II line has a better processor/GPU and seems a tad smoother in operation than stock ICS on the nexus Prime thus far. Pocketnow has an extensive speedtest video with the Galaxy S II vs. the iPhone 4S, and in most app loading and webpage loading.....the Galaxy S finished seconds faster and with smooth scrolling all of the way.

I just upgraded from Pre- to iphone 4s and I have to say I am not impressed at all. Yes it's fast and very smooth but it is missing a lot of little functionalities that is not even funny. The fact that I had to pay $1.99 to get the stupid calendar to show a weekly view is outrageous. Why did HP have to ruin Palm like this.

Someone please pickup webOS and Palm so I can buy a new Palm phone.

First: I agree. Every time I use my Wife's iPhone, I find myself swiping up, left or down from the top for WebOS things that aren't there.

That said:

-Week view with IOS5 - turn your phone into landscape orientation while viewing the calendar.

-Swipe down for agenda & notifications is a step closer to WebOS goodness (still a long way away).

Figured you'd want to know.

Yeah I bought Week view and it is very close to webOS calendar. The only thing missing is the way webOS shrinks the hours in between calendar events which is awesome you don't have to scroll up and down to see the events.

Until the last of us fall.....we will be WEBOS!

Its sad.. webOS was soo ahead of its time in terms of user interface.. if they had the money/ability to make good hardware and advertise as needed, webOS would be #1 or #2.. they needed to release a slab phone with the pre minus or shortly there after.. maybe instead of the pixi.. I still cant believe after the slab domination, they still stock with a slider phones all the way through till the end.. keep the slider, there is a market for that, but without a slab, you lose a HUGE portion of the market..

Webos 3.0 on slab, dual core processor, nice camera front and back = my dream phone..

I still dont know why people havent copied the touchstone inductive charging.. I hate pluggin in my iphone 4s :(

Wish I could have gotten a pre3 on sprint.. even off contract

This sounds great, but WebOS was never made to run on "great hardware", at least how the market sees it. There was never an onscreen keyboard. Most of the app and most of the OS was portrait-oriented only. The GPU was rarely used to provide a smooth experience. The phone resolutions were dismal and behind the times from 2010 onward.

Beyond that, no one ever developed an ecosystem to support it. No surprise why it could never compete. Throwing it on a slab wouldn't make it a success anymore than throwing WebOS on a contemporary dual-core tablet made the Touchpad a success.

Android doesn't have an eco system and doesn't utilize the GPU either.

Palm would have done just fine if they had the cash flow. HP take over was what ruined it. HP had no experience in mobile market. In fact if HP hadn't bought Palm HTC would have purchased Palm and it would have been a completely different story now.

Google Movies, Google Books, Google Plus, Google Music is soon to become a purchase AND storage service, Google Maps, Gmail, Google apps like Goggles....

No Android ecosystem?

BTW, not only have various skins (e.g. SPB Android launcher, TouchWiz) been using the GPU, but live wallpapers always have, and now ICS uses it throughout with RenderScript as Honeycomb has since February of this year.

What would Palm had done differently with more cash? The answer is obvious since that's exactly what they got when HP acquired them....


And HTC DECLINED to even bid on Palm the first time around: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/23/palm-idUSTOE63M04J20100423

That makes it kind of hard for them to have purchased them, don't you think? Please do some research.

"Never made to run on great hardware". That statement makes no sense. WebOS was dying for great hardware and will, ironically, die because HP didn't give it hardware to thrive in. I fail to see what you point is in your various post. Palm and HP never even tried to put it on great hardware which of course if they did, it would have made all the difference in the world. Palm didn't have the cash and HP, just because they bought Palm out didn't supply it to them. And when I say "them" I mean the engineers and programmers. In hindsight I think that's why many of them left shortly after the acquisition. They saw that HP wasn't going to really commit to the mobile space in a way that was needed. Now look at how HP has abandoned everything HW related. Shows that they aren't really concerned with PC, laptops, tablets,phones etc. Use regular people will never know why HP did what they did or why they didn't do what we thought they would. Also Palm was overpriced. The 1.2 billion asking price is what turned alot of potential suitors away Palm and it's IP had, still has great value but not over a billion plus of it. In the end so many mistakes was made in so many areas and at so many points in time. But why get mad at people that love WebOS. I'm one of them. But i did jump ship to a Samsung GSII from my original Pre- And my TP will be my tablet for awhile. :-)

Wow, you need some line breaks.

The point is, the Pre had the most powerful chip available at the time and the Touchpad had a more powerful SoC (Snapdragon APQ8060) than the Tegra 2 chips in every Honeycomb tablet.

That's two opportunities to be on the market with state-of-the-art horsepower, and both times, the devices were unoptimized and laggy. Oh, and both devices were failures.

Yep, this was one of my biggest complaints about Palm/HP. WebOS IMO has the best potential of being the best OS, but it was so rough that it couldn't really compete.

webOS (software) was lacking 3 things: API hooks to allow developers develop powerful apps for ALL webOS users, optimization, and various features.

The least important of these things ironically was the various features because those usually could be filled in by apps. API hooks was super important, and Palm took care of that in a stupid, boneheaded method ("ok, we'll let you code great apps for unreleased devices even though it's highly questionable if anyone will buy those unreleased devices! no, your apps can't be sold to most of our current user base. you want to make apps for us right?").

The last thing was the optimization. webOS is laughably unoptimized. The battery usage is unpredictable. Smoothness/responsiveness varied (scrolling would stutter a lot and it wouldn't be that smooth). You would have random freezes for a second or so. Applications launched at different speeds depending on how the OS felt (I've had Calendar take 10 seconds to load. It usually takes 1-2 seconds). The whole unnecessary slow logging on the Touchpad highlights this problem.

yeah the slab should have been the first phone they release. At least the second. not that pixi. But webos was also lacking many features then and still lacks the virtual keyboard.

The lack of a slab form factor isn't as important as just hardware in general. Look at the competition for the Pre phones.

Pre competing vs iPhone3GS.
Pre+ vs Nexus One.
Pre2 vs iPhone4/Evo4G
Pre3 vs Atrix.

I should mention that those competitors I listed above came out BEFORE the webOS equivalent. Can you imagine if Palm only released Pres but stayed on the cutting edge of technology?

In May 2010, Palm releases the Pre2 instead of the Pre+. It has a 1Ghz processor, a 3.5" screen, 512MB RAM. 800x480 resolution. Auto focus camera, and a compass.

In October 2010, Palm releases the Pre3 instead of the Pre2. 3.5-4" 800x480 screen with 512MB RAM, 4G, a 1Ghz processor, front facing camera, compass, rear auto focus camera.

On April 2011, Palm releases the Pre4 instead of the Pre3. 3.5-4.3" 960x540 resolution screen. 1GB RAM, 4G, dual core processor, front facing camera, rear racing auto focus camera, compass, NFC.

Yeah, I think I would've liked Palm to stay more in sync with the higher end hardware than move to a slab form factor. Though that option would've been nice.

well i think the vertical slider form factor has not proven very successful while the slab has so i don't think they could have just released 20 vertical sliders.

people here like them. The rest of the world doesn't.

I think it's fine to have the hottest cutting edge tech. it's a value add. but i think launching a bunch of phones that all look like your failed first phone is a mistake. i think it's fine if you have a successful blackberry and keep releasing similar phones but as we are seeing now that has limits. It's a different thing to have a failed device and keep releasing something that looks the same. It's like releasing the Kin 2 or the Kyocera Echo 2 and then wondering why nobody bought it. To me every Pre has largely been a spec bump. And that' snot good if you don't like the design to begin with. I think they needed much more then just a pre form factor to appeal to the widest amount of people.

Also where as you point out hardware increases i think only some hardware truly matters to most consumers. Most consumers don't care about ram. I can't recall a discussion about ram on here before the original pre launched. i surely didn't ask when i bought mine. Camera? yeah. screen size? yeah, but most people just buy a phone. They don't care how many cores it has. That's tech geek stuff and that's fine for message boards and gizmodo but not for the vast majority of people walking into a store. For every tech geek there's two sisters that just want to text and have apps and music and a dad that just wants it to work. And a mother that doesn't want to fuss with technology and is never gonna get close to Precentral or dream of jailbreaking, prewaring or rooting squat. And to be a success you've got to sell to them not the tech geek.

There's a good reason you never hear about cores or ram at an iphone event. Because they know full well that most consumers don't care. i'm not saying it has no effect on performance. Just that the average consumer doesn't know, couldn't tell, and don't ask. I phone either works or doesn't.

The media is much more important, the apps, the email, the calender the camera, the video camera, the voice mail, voice commands the music player the video player, the messaging. And many of those are areas that Pre phones have launched lacking (scrobbler, video recording, camera features, robust email) and it's areas that others phones have hit out the park.

Regardless, as we can see from the iphone 4 and the 4s. And even the best selling android phones. Having the best tech does not equate to sales. Tons of phones get away without having the highest end specs and still sell well. Now i'm not saying they don't matter. And i think Pre's have lagged. Like the pre 3 was gonna launch in sept with a 5 mega pixel camera and 720p while earlier that summer phones had already launched with 8 megapixel camera's and 1080p recording. Not only that the iphone launched with both those. So i do think that certain specs need to be met. You need to keep up with the big boys on cameras and possibly screen sizes but ram i don't think matters to the normal consumer. the phone works or doesn't and they'll never know if ram or lack of ram is the fault and thus they don't look for it.

As for slabs i can honestly say i never wanted a vertical slider (did want a keyboard) but i settled cause i liked webos. But after the Pre minus i was done with keyboards and any physical keyboard phone was a nonstarter for me.

RAM and processor matters to the normal consumer A LOT depending entirely on the OS. Let's be realistic here. webOS is unoptimized and a disgusting resource hog.

iOS4.x was more resource intensive too. People were happy with the specs on the iPhone3G, iPhone3GS because iOS was optimized for those devices. When iOS4.x came out happy people with iPhone3G(S)s were no longer happy and wanted the device with more memory and processor speed.

Having used iPhone3G/S back when they were on iOS3.x, I can tell you that they were fine and people wouldn't care about processor or RAM. Same with WP7 devices. Optimized, react beautifully even w/ lesser specs.

webOS devices... have never ran that beautifully. webOS to become smooth has two ways of going that are not mutually exclusive. One is to optimize the software. Two is to use better hardware. Ideally you'd do both. Palm barely did either. So yes, RAM and processor mattered a lot to webOS devices. And it mattered to Android devices but Android devices got the crazy good hardware (and they also got optimized over time).

Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of people DO like slabs, but I think the "negative" of having a keyboard isn't NEARLY as much as the negative of being WAY behind in technology.

I would easily take an auto focus camera (only the Pre3 has one) over a slab form factor. I would take a compass (only the Veer and Pre3 have it) over a slab form factor. I would take a front facing camera over a slab form factor (Pre3 only). Give me 800x480 resolution (Pre3 only) or better over the slab.

Give me the exact equivalent tech wise and THEN the form factor becomes important to me.

But yes I'll agree that once the threshold has been crossed, the slab form factor becomes much more important. But I think that threshold is a lot higher than you think just because of how unoptimized webOS is.

I'm not saying specs are irrelevant specifically ram or cpus. But, i've been in many a phone store and never in my life heard a single person ask how much ram does that phone have?

i'm sure phone nerds do but not most people. I'm NOT saying it doesn't matter or effect performance just that people don't make the connection and don't ask. I bought my pre minus. it wan't until many months later that i understood that more ram in a later pre versions meant less too many cards and web pages holding more info when i scroll. And i didn't know to even ask before i bought the phone. And had i asked i'd have had no clue whether what they told me was enough to not have that problem. Like there's no chance i'd go "512? well that will definitely cause too many cards errors and thus i'll pass on the PRe minus." The galaxy nexus just got announced. I've no clue what the an adequate amount of ram is for it to satisfy me. my only test is to use it and see if it works. That's what i'm saying most people do in a store. They use it and play with it. But most people don't know an o.s. in and out and know exactly what the proper ram amount is to not have certain problems in a phone.

as for form factors. I know people here love vertical sliders but pre central users are not a proxy for the general population. And i think if you're a company and want to sell as many units as possible you first have to appeal to the biggest customer base you can. And most people are not buying vertical sliders so i think you confine your sales when you limit yourself to that. The market has gone virtual keyboard and horizontal slider. People on precentral may not love it. But now most people want some other form factor. I think trying to get them to buy what they don't want is spitting in the wind.

I think there's a reason Toyota is one of the biggest car sellers. They make cars that appeal to most people. Palm Pre's are like Teslas. It's gonna appeal to a select segment and until they make a more mainstream car they won't compete with Toyota camry's, Accords, Tauras' level of sales. I just think they needed more appealing form factors in addition to what they already had. wanna offer a vertical slider? fine. but also offer a slab, a candy bar if you want and a horizontal slider.

Oh, you know I think we agree but are thinking we don't agree.

I agree most people don't care about what the specs are, and you agree that they care how it performs. It matters in a general sense. But you're ignoring the other aspects where Palm/HP was behind. Auto-focus camera. Front facing camera. Compass.

And I really think you overestimate how many people here love vertical sliders. I'm pretty sure there's a fair amount of people who love slabs a lot more to the point they really care (like you), a few who love vertical sliders a lot more, and a lot of people (like me) who have a preference but the preference is weak enough that they don't care to sacrifice features for the form factor. My guess is most people think: features (all hardware and software features), then price, then form factor. Like I said, I think it matters, but I think most people would NOT give up a lot of features for it.

I mean ideally, I would say Palm would release 2 devices. One a 3.6" vertical slider (since they seem to love it) and a 4" slab. But that's assuming BOTH of those devices get current generation specs/features.

If the choice is adding a new form factor or getting current generation features, I can't imagine people picking new form factor.

And I'm not sure if your analogy is accurate at all. That analogy is implying Android devices are "ordinary" while Palm/HP devices are precision, high tech premium devices (which is pretty much the opposite). I would say using that analogy Palm/HP devices are cars with outdated engines, outdated air conditioner, outdated stereo systems, and shaky reliability, but just has something about it that makes them incredibly fun to drive.

I WANT to Be Strong! I'm TRYING to Be Strong!! BUT, the Truth Hurts!! And "Life Moves Fast ...", Everyday!! Rest In Piece webOS!!

ummmmm.... last time i checked HP said they weren't competing anymore.

something about marathons being too long to run, idk...

Would you rather we call it "Your Options" or "The Temptation"?

I would ask the question: Is this really related to news about webos for a site called "precentral"?

If I want android, iphone or rimm information I know where to go. I dont know why comments like these get voted down (like mine above) but thats fine.

Count the comments and page hits on articles like this versus 'WebOS Weekly", and then you have your answer.

It's general industry news. It's not an issue of finding something to talk about - it's an issue of we should talk about this and how it compares and relates to webOS.

Fair enough... differnet strokes.. I can dig it. I still love how I get voted down for those comments that werent negative just more of an observation. I am a fan of the site (been here for a long time) and the DK. So everyone remain calm and carry on.

you got voted down because people like Derek Kessler and because your comment infers that his column does not belong or that discussion of other phones do not belong hear but should only exist on other sites. I'm sure there are some that agree with you but many, me included, welcome discussion of all kinds of devices in the mobile space regardless of who sells them.

And by your rational this site, being precentral, i guess should only talk about Pres. I guess they need a whole new site for us to discuss the veer and the touchpad.

Except in the forums you'd get banned for saying how it compares and relates to webOS.

It's frustrating watching other companies scavenge the best parts of webOS like vultures tearing flesh off a corpse.

Can you shed some light as to why HP isn't sueing all the WebOS copycats out there?

This comment is the most on point. All of those who talk bad about how bad WebOS is and was should at least be able to see how great it could have and should have been.
I dont know if it was marketing, fear from consumers to going to a new OS, or what, but WebOS had all of the right tools, just not the right amount of money in the right places to make it the glowing success it should have been.
I believe, had they come out with more apps, they would have been able to dominate eventually, but they didnt, and they didnt, so now we are here. Everyone has realized what we already knew about all of the things that made WebOS great.

Money isn't the factor people here make it out to be. Microsoft has endless amounts of money, an innovative and modern OS, slab handsets all over the place and an ecosystem. It's still a very tough road for them.

Apple, on the other hand, spends WAY less on R&D than the competition and thanks to their ace component acquisitions years in advance, less on manufacturing. Yet, they're running the show.

Money is one very small factor. WebOS was missing a WHOLE LOT of the other factors needed for a successful device these days.

It goes both ways. WebOS copied the competition just as much. There's really no OS out there that is wholly original nor one that is wholly a clone (well, except for BBX on the Playbook).

Yes it is, but those vultures know a good meal when they see one, unlike HP.

It is frustrating. However, the innovation lives on and we have something to look forward to.

This shows why webOS is already dead. If you are coasting along with no new hardware and releasing the updates that were already in the pipeline then you are dead in the water. The other mobile platforms are moving along at breakneck speed.

If you still feel some kind of loyalty to the remnants of Palm, for whatever reason, that's fine but don't expect your hardware or software to magically keep up with what the other mobile platforms are doing.

Homebrew isn't going to do much for software and they can't do anything about the outdated hardware. Plus, I'm sure even homebrew hobbyists are interested in the new devices and their potential rather than webOS and the absence of it.

Those are not really alternatives for me, because I like to have a local full GNU environment, with various scripting languages and libs.
For example I had a special need recently, so I wrote a small perl script and it was done. The result works on all my devices.

The funny thing is that I was hesitating between N9 (more open) and pre3 (a keyboard), but both are dying.

I know there is a kind of scripting sandbox for Android, but it's far from what we get with WebOS or Maemo/Meego.

I used an N9 for two days last week. It's a wonderful piece for hardware and the UI is superb, but it's got a lot of bugs - think the first release of webOS. Serious issues with Exchange mail, no flagging mail, doesn't map multiple gmail calendars, etc.

It's a great hobby phone, but as for work? Forget it.

If I could get a subsidised N9 I would. I just can't see paying$700+ to get one imported. I'm going to have to settle for a GalaxySII.

I love my Pre 3 (although I had to send it off to get the slider fixed) and Touchpad, but I can't shake the feeling we are about to hear bad news.

I'm sorry, but what bad news are you expecting at this point? That HP webOS hardware has been discontinued? Is PreCentral some kind of alternate reality universe where the Pre 3 and Touchpad live on?

Yes, yes it is. If you read most of the comments we, yes we dont want to give up the ghost.

They gave us an update, that is enough to keep it on the respirator, to keep us hoping against hope. If more people believed in God like we believe in Palm/HP, the whole world would be a different place.

Whittman, the new chair, is still undecided about starting back up with the hardware. That is what we are waiting on. That is also what you are waiting to hear. The nail in the coffin hasn't stopped any of the anti-pre people from coming in here and stomping on dreams.

Got any babies you wanna take candy from, or any one you want to convince that there is no Santa, or Easter Bunny? There are websites out there that the believers use that may need someone to crush their dreams.

The article left out the news about the iPhone 4S's subpar display. If you're a fan of sepia-toned photos, if yellow is your favorite color, or if you think contrast is over-rated, then Apple's new bestseller is for you. Just google (or Bing) iphone 4S yellow screen contrast. The good news is that Siri lets iPhone 4S owners tell their new phone about their problems with the new phone.

Apple will come back and say that's just their new "vintage" feature. It's like instagram, for your screen!

We should make a comparing post. How Android (and iOsx) got inspired from Webos (as the apple boys always like to do).

I don't see how being brain-dead "like everyone else" will improve my life, so thanks for the Idea, but No, thanks.

I find it hard to find any other platform interesting.
I had an iPhone(and still use an iPod Touch) and the os is so boring. It is easy and functional but it is boring
I recently just got rid of my Android device to return to WebOS(Pre3 I think that if HP does sell WebOS then that company should just take a couple of years and REALLY plan how to make it compelling. Just my opinion.

Well, I just tried Android for a couple of weeks and was glad to give the device away, when my Pre3 finally arrived.

Since I don't care for how many Apps there are and how chic my device is and whatever, I'm going with the Pre3 and the Touchpad for as long as they are in working condition.

Download a game if you want fun? The UI shouldn't be a game.

...no, the UI should DEFINITELY be a nightmare to use (like Android WAS - up until today & 4.0 announcement), that's a mark of a great UI :)

The title should say the replacements because to be considered competition you need to be in the game. WebOS isn't in that game.

I love webOS just as much as any of you and when I knew there was not going to be an upgrade to my pre. I took matters into my own hands and dipped over to Android as it was the next best option. Now I see the big picture clearly the handwriting was on the wall you need money and heart to play this game palm had the heart but not the money and HP had the money but not the heart to follow through so here we are. I'm not going to wait anymore time crying over webOS... Android is the future. #ThatIsAll

About heart and money, it's a very nice illustration of the problem. However saying that HP had the money is not entirely correct. They never spent any significant money on palm/webOS, they just kept it on life support. They needed to double the amount of people working on all aspects of the development and they didn't.

Derek. I for one appreciate this. I'm still a WebOS user and have no immediate plans to switch .... but: unless there's some great-news surprise, I know I will switch someday.

Seeing as how I don't folllow the other SPE blogs regularly as I do P|C -- it's helpful to me to get an overview on the most likely 'suitors' for WebOS users as given from a WebOS perspective.

I see this article as good news. There's innovation & improvements. The rest of the industry is benefiting from WebOS goodness. Since I can't buy a new WebOS phone, when my Pre+ days are over --> I'm glad the modern Smartphone OS'es will look & feel more like WebOS than devices currently for-sale.

I like WebOS so much that after getting excited about the Galaxy Nexus I get sad it isn't a *Pre Nexus* ha ha.
All that flicking and notifications are a copy of WebOS, just like iOS5 is also copying stuff. And it makes you think...
... if all this things were available on WebOS SOOO LONG AGO, what would've happen with decent hardware and marketing.
Just think about it, we are using phones with practically the STOCK OS and it just works, because unfortunately we don't get all those constant updates and fixes that Mac delivers every now and then.

after reading/seeing ICS last night its definately a possible which for me if WEBOS isnt saved. Thanks HP for the HP TP update, now waiting to hear some more good news!

I have a new pre 2 unlocked on at&t(backup phone), a new At&t HP Pre3, and an almost new HP Touchpad 32 GB. I will keep my webOS devices "forever", I hope.

So much has been said about this decline.

Pre3 and TP released in March would have rocked the boat. Together.

The TP is now running as it should have been from the start.

If you want to do this right - just look at Apple. I know it doesn't go down well, but that is my fact.

You announce and you deliver the next weeks...preorder page. Delivery date set. Carriers on board.

That is about it.

Next: Hardware

Was it so hard to foresee what would available now? No, it was obvious for those interested.

So why would you wait for such a long time until your hardware is outdated? Nobody really knows...

4G/LTE is a must even if the net isn't ready for it, exception: Apple, but they come with Siri and 64GB phones with all things working out of the box and the filled up App-Store.

So what is so hard to understand in techworld?

And why do people at HP getting paid big checks to come up with **** all the way?

Any idea? Sorry me neither.

Android is picking up features from webOS in 4.0. they even have cards to be swiped away...in the multitasking view...and notifications ...

TTS isn't so cool the way it is. Airdrop and Beam are cool.

It's a sad story...with webOS.

One day in 2012 I will have to decide wether to get a new phone state of the art or stick with my then almost two year old Pre2...

I am considering all options already.

How about releasing the 7 inch Touchgo with 4G data and the webOS slabphone with 32GB and NFC and 8megapixel high definition camera and a 4 inch screen, memory card slot and front facing camera with decent resolution?

That would be a bundle for 600 USD...

what you said is largely true and will be criticized because of it.

And to add to your point about android picking up features from webos. What we needed to see was webos picking up features from other platforms. like voice commands, Android had it. Apple added it. Webos was always lagging in many areas just like it's launches lagged. But little things like all the features in camera apps, robust email, hdmi, i mean a full featured music app, auto correct and spell checking, etc. there are many things but i think webos for all it's strengths also failed to sort out some basic things, like i shouldn't need music player remix. It should get close to replacing my point and shoot camera. I should get visual voicemail out the gate.

Gotta remember a lot of WebOS fail was on Palm's part. Yes we can all agree that one of the issues was hardware. That being said Palm didn't do themselves any favors with getting out api's or the sdk in a timely fashion.

Heck when the music api was fished out. Palm went nearly apoplectic on the developer who found it cause it hadn't been released to the public. One thing we knew early on was that to get the performance out of the product you had to enable the GPU. Again a non starter on Palm's part. Heck they even brought in specialists in GPU optimization and they didn't even get it to work.

With all this then HP buying them. We still didn't get a better product. When everyone under the sun expected a slab phone from HPalm. They come out with more sliders. Oh not now in February noo months from now. The rest of the disaster we all know.

Meanwhile Duarte slides over to android and in lil over a year. Delivers a polished unified Mobile OS with many of the features that we bought into for WebOS. As much as I am a fan of WebOS. Seeing what he did on the live cast from HK. It just made me squeeze with delight at the screen. I may not get the Nexus Galaxy, but will be looking at an ICS phone in my future.

Anybody know how the work is progressing in porting BBX to the TouchPad?

How many people at Android and IOS, and even Crackberry, are still fighting with people about how great their original devices are. I still have my Pre- and I love it. How many of you people using the other OS's can say that about your year 1 devices.

How many still use them even though you have the next model or 3 models up. How many of you would fight to keep it up if it ever falterred. There are so many to choose from so you dont have to have a favorite. You are still come here though. To see what real love for an OS is.

Dont try to over analyze the love, but just understand if you can why we have it. If you cant understand it, just at least try to respect it.

With the multi-tasking gestures of Android 4.0 and a free open-source ssh client, it's getting really tempting now.

Honestly, it isnt that hard to me at all. I am still enjoying my Pre- and White TP.

Where did you get a white TP?

You know, if hp really wanted to unload webOS, then they should sue the copycats of their parents. I can't see anything else motivating a company to purchase webOS. Unfortunately.

I think our next best hope should be that Matias turns Android into some kind of crazy webOS on steroids. Wouldn't it be nice to have all that functionality, great hardware AND apps? Sounds like they're well on their way with ice cream sandwich.

Microsoft paid HP big time to unload WebOS IMO. They want HP to put Windows 8 on their new tablets. They should have at least license it
to 3rd party hardware first. WebOS on phones rock! Sure I love webOS on a big screen tablet, but don't take away the phones! that's what started it all! Resurrect the phones at least!!!


Dude, HP never STOPPED buying Windows licenses by the boatloads, or haven't you noticed they're the number one WINTEL manufacturer?

Why would they have to pay HP anything? They already ARE virtually the entirety of their profitable computing income.

The posts here get more laughable by the day.

Yeah but Windows Mobile OS's aren't doing jack... so ditch WebOS altogether to sell our **** mobile OS.

I guess that's why HP makes Windows Phone handsets? Oh wait...they don't.

Sure, those are flying off the shelves... why put webOS in the mix. To confuse potential Windows customers?

Honestly. I had the Pre+ on verizon and was holding out for the pre3. after the announcement I waited to see if the verizon pre3s were going to come out and when they trickled out at $500-$700 I bought a Thunderbolt. I... hated it... it was all over the place in all the wrong ways. nothing was consistent and it just made me long for my stack of cards back. so i went out and got a pre2 online for $150 off a plan. i love the webOS and actually love the pre2. good solid phone. also, their homebrew is a joke. friggin took me forever to try and 'root' the damn thing and i ended up just saying to **** with it. when i finally leave webOS, that is what im going to miss the most.....

but i really cant call the pre2 a smartphone. its as much of a smartphone as a windows mobile 6.5 is. or that microsoft kin. it does the internet and apps. but its not the same level of galaxy nexus or 4S. its not smart. siri is smart(albeit kinda needless). IceCreamSandwich is smart. our webOS could have been top of its class but never will be.. sad.

Ill wait for the pre 2 i bought to die and when it does ill decide what is out there. but saying that, a year ago i didnt like the iOS4 and i didnt like android2.3. but with the GalNex and 4S they actually have amazing hardware and finally competent software wise. (that vertical multitasking on android4.0 is hottt.. id go get that tomorrow if i had to choose..)

There might be a bright side to this. If the two are similar there might be a way to integrate them together easily giving us the best of both worlds. Keeping fingers crossed that WebOS Lives on.

Everything new looks like a webOS device and contain webOS features because most webOS devices and new software iterations live only in the imagination of PreCentral.net users.

Irrespective of Matius Duarte now being at Google - the biggest indication of the gulf in culture and talent between Google and Palm is easily demonstrated by the implementations of technology sharing data between devices.

HPPalm implelemented Touch-To-Share - half baked, limited in scope (both functionally and in device support) and completely useless.

Google implemented Beam, incredibly useful, easy to use, wide in scope and supported on all devices with Bluetooth.

Things like this are the reason webOS is dead and Android rules the world. Palm just never have delivered in either hardward or software.

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