Analysts and investors drop Palm like a hot rock; stock ends day down 29% | webOS Nation

Analysts and investors drop Palm like a hot rock; stock ends day down 29% 188

by Derek Kessler Fri, 19 Mar 2010 4:09 pm EDT

  Palm HQ

“Palm is essentially an accelerating death spiral.”

That’s not a good thing to hear, and given yesterday’s bleak financial report, we can’t say we disagree (though we do maintain that it is possible to pull out of a death spiral). That little nugget comes from Ilya Grozovsky, analyst at Morgan Joseph & Co. As CNN Money noted, Grozovsky was one of two analysts to cut their price targets on Palm stock to a heart-stopping $0/share. By valuing the stock at zero, Grozovsky and Peter Misek of Canaccord Adams are declaring that Palm the company is worth nothing.

Those two doomsayers aren’t the only ones kicking Palm to the curb. At this point, not a single analyst will recommend buying Palm stock. Given Palm’s current cash burn rate, most estimate that Palm has only about twelve months to execute a turnaround or find a suitor with deep pockets.

Not all analysts think Palm is completely worthless, as Shaw Wu of Kaufman Bros. said, “While we believe Palm has some value with its webOS and tight integration of hardware and software, we are unsure of the company’s prospects as an ongoing concern.” Essentially, as All Things D pointed out, while webOS may still be a valuable property, it’ll do Palm no good to have it if they can’t get customers (or another company) to buy it.

And therein lies the problem: Palm can’t seem to properly demonstrate what it is that makes webOS unique. To market it effectively is going to take a considerable marketing investment, and that’s money that Palm doesn’t have. Well, they do have it, but at the rate they’re going to have to spend, they won’t for long. Said Charlie Wolf of Needham and Company: “[Palm] could invest even more in marketing the Pre and Pixi. But it’s unclear whether Palm could ever spend enough to reach a position where Pre and Pixi sales were sufficient to cover its marketing bill and return the company to profitability. In the mean time, time is running out.”

Just how badly does Palm need to invest in marketing? As Business Insider noted, Morgan Stanley analyst Ehud Geldblum estimates that Palm currently has 1.15 million devices on shelves and shipping to carriers. That’s an alarming amount of excess inventory for any company, but when that amounts to six months of sales for Palm, that’s a disastrous number. Even if Palm drastically cuts their shipments in the next quarter and manages to spur a significant bump in sales, they can still expect to have hundreds of thousands of devices still lodged in inventories around the world.

The bad news from yesterday’s conference call and the compounding bad reports from analysts has pummeled Palm’s stock like it’s never been pummeled before. Palm shares closed the day’s trading at $4.00, a drop of 29.16% from the previous day’s close, and the lowest the stock has been in nearly fifteen months. From the high of $18.09 at the beginning of October 2009, Palm’s value has declined a staggering $4.5 billion (outstanding shares plus Elevation Partners’ 1/3 stake). As of the close today, Palm’s value stood at a hair over $1 billion ($1.005 billion, to be precise).

The most frustrating part is that it’s still difficult to figure out exactly why the Pre, Pixi, and webOS haven’t caught on. Said John Gruber on his site Daring Fireball, “I don’t really understand why. Their webOS phones are, to my eyes, the best competitors to the iPhone. People who own them seem to like them. Their marketing hasn’t been great, but it’s been better than Android’s. But Android is taking off and webOS isn’t, and, trite though it sounds, Palm really has bet the company on webOS.”

What does Palm need to do to turn this around? We’re not entirely sure, but we do know that the next several months sure won’t be pretty.


outch :(

Lets buy palm for $10 and make it great again :P

I'll be glad to help. Let me know how many shares you need at $10 per share. I have a source.

I have a source at $9.

omg...0 USD for common shares does NOT mean that Palm is worth nothing!!!
Analysts did NOT say that!

It just means, that there is no value for common shareholders, because all the value belongs to debtholders and preferred shareholders.

You should correct this point in your posting because in that way your statement is just wrong and VERY misleading...

Disagree with your point. If the common stock is worth $0 (I'm not saying it is, just if), then there is no "equity" and the "equity" is its value - it is what an investor would pay. Yes, as you say, their are still significant assets, but if the debts are as much as the assets, then the net "value" is indeed zero. Again, I am not agreeing with the assessment that price target is zero - that seems like a huge overreaction. And at least for today, investor consensus is that it is worth $4 per share. And, I LOVE my Pre. But zero stock value is zero.

Palm cant cover their debts (bonds and accounts payable), the stock is "worth" zero at the moment. But it does have speculative value. Speculation depends on your confidence that something can make the company profitable, or compell others to pay more than you did for your shares.

Palm do not give up! Start looking for more inverters!

I cant go back to using a primitive phone with no card view, no gesture bar, etc etc..


Palm Pre is one of the best, if not the best, smart phone on the market..

The palm pre is sure as hell the best concept out there, do to the card view, gesture bar, webos etc etc.. Unfortunately, it can be a bit slow at time. What palm needs is a phone that has more ram (the pre + got this), expandable memory slot (cuz so many ppl would love that) and (top of the line) faster processor IMO.

Intel buy palm and pump your big bucks and awesome processors in there.

Palm would be so sick if Intel bough them and was basically hardware consultant and money backer. It would instantly give the phone more credibility, with a big name like intel backing it. Like how the androids are so popular just because Google makes it.

Basically, Palm needs a well known backer to get them more main stream and into public eye and provide them with more money and credibility for those who dont really know palm (i never really knew palm before the palm pre)...
they just need to knock the socks off competitors in terms of hardware on their new phone, it wont even need much adverting if it crushes competition in terms of processor speed, ram, and expandable memory slot.

and next palm phone should be slab style, bigger screen, virtual keyboard (and maybe physical keyboard) but i think if u have a well done virtual keyboard with great smart auto correcting, then physical keyboard is waste of space. IMO

Palm i love you!! Find a way to stay alive!!

Derek sucks balls. Palm should ban him from owning their products.

We all know you secretly jerk off to the IPhone.

Here's to hoping it will work out... Nobody wants a paperweight, but at least we have a solid dev/homebrew community to keep things running.

Yes this is true, but now there will most likely be no flash, and also no non homebrew apps, or web os updates. People will most likely jump ship, except for me, I signed a ridiculous 2 year agreement...

I think it will come down to a new device with webOS 2.0 that will have to have superior hardware and all the bugs out of its software. Then maybe a great phenomenal campaign comprised of about at least 6 commercials that span 6-8 months prime time talking about the power and speed of webOS and the multi-functionality of that palm device as well as Palm's one golden horse, synergy. Then also statewide campaigns in all major cities promoting and informing people on WebOS and Palm followed by contests like the one they are doing in SoCal. But, see now, its sad cause I do not think they will have the money for such a come back...

IMHO of course....

What do you guys think?

I think starting a new generation of WebOS when this one has not even been completed would destroy what credibility they have left.

And while I'd like upgraded hardware, releasing a new device would obsolete 6 months of inventory which would kill Palm before they could get a prototype into a photo studio.

But, judging by the mis-steps in the last 15 months, both of these seem quite likely. I've smelled doom in the wind since McNamee opened his mouth and fluttered his chins. When Ruby said he'd never used an iphone, it seemed to increase the arrogance factor even further. Now his bad mouthing of VZ is killing Palm's image with the carriers. Seems everybody is to blame except Palm.

We've been saying this for a while and really it boils down to this. If Palm is to succeed, they HAVE to come out with webOS 2.0 with a new and improved device. Specifics aside, it must be bigger/faster and most important, it has to have much more stable hardware. If they miss any of these in this year's release of their new device, they won't survive, unfortunately. To be quite frank, I don't know if this will even be possible. I say this because in order to succeed with better hardware, it's going to cost them more to manufacture it and unfortunately, I don't think they'll have enough resources, without investors, to pull this off, along with marketing. I hate to hear myself say this, because I love webOS and have been a loyal Palm fan for years, but unfortunately, things aren't looking good. Their biggest mistake was releasing it exclusively to Sprint first and bringing it out at the same time people were anticipating the iPhone release. Then they did it again when Verizon users were begging for it, they waited for Android to drop first. Everyone was anticipating Droid. Too many bad plays by Palm. They need to stop making poor decisions and listen to the people. Bigger, better, more reliable and market it. Go back to the original Droid commercials and see why they caught the attention of the users. They made people anticipate something big was coming. This is your last shot Palm - let people know something big is coming. Start soon so people are waiting. Then release the fastest webOS 2.0 device out there with all the bells and whistles. Nothing restricted. And well, if it isn't the biggest and the best, at least you went out with a bang. Just whatever you do, DONT release it when they release the Supersonic, or whatever the next big phone is coming. Three strikes you'll be out Palm....

... might want to start talking to Cisco - see if they'll pick up webOS. They seem to be picking up every other angle to fill their portfolio. This is one they haven't grabbed yet. Be a nice buy for them....

It took them this long to get the video camera functioning with bugs. Yeah, they're ready to start over. They still have room to fix the latency concerns with WebOS 1, starting over, doesn't make the problem go away. Starting over, doesn't make the million units collecting dust go away. Starting over, isn't cheap. WebOS 2.0 will make their remaining cash disappear faster than it will speed up app loads.

I saw PALM stock was on sale today, so I bought some.

I'm really considering doing the same thing... Palm stock is a steal right now, and even if things don't work out *God forbid*, the company has enough intellectual property that will definitely raise that stock a good bit before any possible acquisition. At least that's my hunch.

Yes! Despite my bearish comments about Palm's financials, I will definitely buying Palm stock here in a few days. Palm will not just shutter itself into oblivion. Somebody will want to buy it eventually. Or they will succeed in the comeback. Either way, the stock will go back up again. It may take a while, years even, but it will come back.

I know. People just think that the Palm people are crying in corners in fetal position with nothing to do but give up. Is the design team doing nothing since the Pixi? Is the software team not doing anything to fix the 1.4 bugs? Would elevation partners just pat Jon on the back and say "that's alright"?

Can you walk into a Sprint or Verison store TODAY and buy a Pre? Yes.

Point made. No bankruptcy.

When they no longer sell Pre's at Sprint, reply to this post. In the meantime, go play in traffic.

First off, I love Palm, I love my phone, but...

a) The hardware has not been reliable. I have a launch day pre and it's fine, but many do not. It doesn't matter how much money you put into advertising, if the Verizon or Bell sales person is saying that the hardware of the phone is not as good as other phones, then all the ads in the world won't help

b) It's still WebOS 1.x. Android was in the same situation at Android 1.x. People liked the OS but only when Android got to 2.0 did it really shine. Same with WebOS. When it reaches 2.0 it will be awesome.

I really hope they can turn this one around, but they have to stop advertising, put money into making a solid 2.0 phone and then advertise THAT. And I don't know how much money they have left.

I just don't see how a new phone could come out. They still have 1.15 million phones now.

I agree. No need to advertise the Pre anymore - it is old news. Hope we get to see a new device with software enhancements. Time & cash seem to be running out to make this move.

Yeah personally i think The Palm Pre has been dead since December and the Pixi pretty much right at launch had no pop. But i posed the question over and over what happens if Iphone has a new version with multitasking and better notifications and new hardware in June, along with 10 more android phones, 20 or so new Windows 7 phones, and 7 or 8 new blackberry versions? Who wants Palm's 2 old version phones in that market? But i got pie in the sky responses. Regardless i think a tough road has always been in the cards. And the Pre's days were numbered long ago as evidenced by declining sell through at Sprint. People didn't want to see it. They were also saying at $10 Palm was a buy. And $7. And $6. And earlier this week. It's a spec stock now plain and simple.

The Foleo killed Palm. That was a horrible decision put them in a hole they haven't been able to climb out of. While palm was busy developing the Foleo, apple was developing the iPhone. Palm's lack of vision for their phone is what killed them. Now they are playing catch-up and I don't think they can. I hope they do, but I don't think they will.

Foleo was a real speed bump.

Bad they developed it.

Perhaps worse that they never finished it considering how popular netbooks are and wireless tablets might get.

Foleo looked bad, since Palm's selling point was leave the pc behind, use your phone. If that kind of energy had gone into next gen Treo or the Pre, ...WOOOF!

You and Derek should go shopping together for tampons seeing how you both have a p^ssy.

Who gives a sh!+ about Morgan Joseph and Cannacord Adams? 2nd rate lower tier middle market I-Banks.

Palm Pre is cathcing on. The reason it is not catching on as fast as Droid is because of name recognition. People buy what they "think" is popular. Names like Google, Blackberry, and Apple are "popular" names. Palm is not a popular name. That will change sooner than later. In the mean time, get off the rag.

Dude, I've been upbeat about Palm all along, but this inventory thing is killer.

I made a long post yesterday both here and in the forums about why the inventory numbers are very, very bad. Of course yesterday I was thinking 500-600k units. 1.15 Million is almost unbelievable. But I have learned from tracking things like this that reality lies somewhere between what I think of as realistic and what some Wall Street analyst things is the doomsday number.

I will be blunt about this: The ONLY way Palm will survive this is if:

1.)They cease all production on all current sku's.

2.)I seriously doubt that they will have enough cash for R&D and further development of WebOS for very long, so, quite frankly, those efforts need to be stepped down for a while. Lay off as many people in those areas that you can afford to in the short run.

3.)Find, create, beg for, prostitute themselves for new partnerships. If Jon Rubenstein didn't personally call the CEOs of MS, GOOG, HTC, MOTO, etc. before he left the office today, he just might as well hang it up.

4.)And then sell everything you've got; phones, patents, factories, your office building, anything to raise cash so you can go back to doing the serious business of making killer phones with the world's best OS.

Engadget (Josh Topolsky) has published a pretty good article on what to do with the next phone, and I agree with much of what he says, but until Palm has cleared the pipes and has cash to make the next device happen, they are going to have a really have a difficult time making all the changes neccessary to make it a success.

And I'm sorry, the numbers do not support your claim that "Palm Pre is catching on." They sold fewer units in this quarter which included Christmas and a launch on Verizon than they did in the summer when they were only on Sprint. That's horrible.

Palm bet the farm on the Verizon launch, and now they've lost, and have lost just about everything in the process.

If Palm does not make drastic corrections now, they're dead. Period.

Stop overdosing on the koolaid. Just b.c it's popular nowadays to be 'dramatic' with opinionated posts doesnt mean your argument doesnt still reek of sh!+.

As you continue to scream 'wolf', Palm will continue operating as they have been since the premier of the Palm Pre. It's not going bankrupt. There is a higher chance Derek will suck your balls then of this company going bankrupt.

Man, your argument is frightfully devoid of any substance! Thank You!

I guess you didn't see this:

And, FWIW, I really want Palm to succeed. My intentions are only to help, even though it may hurt...kinda like open heart surgery. =)

AT&T and China Telecom just confirmed the Palm Pre Plus will be coming to their carriers by July.

Im sure China Telecom alone can take a good chunk of Palm's 1MM units of Pre inventory.

Look like you lost this round as well. Like I said before, you can walk into any sprint store today, as well as Verizon, and buy a Palm Pre. The day you can't, come back on here and claim bankruptcy. Until, go play in traffic.

I hope they can turn it around. I'd hate to be stuck on a dead platform. Well thank goodness for Sprint's premier program (A new phone every year with new customer pricing).

that's the truth I love my pre but I might end up with the supersonic. Thanks for the sprint premier program.

LMAO is that really a phone or are you just a salt & pepper fan hahahahaha supersonic

My phone still works, Sprint still supports it, no worries for me.

I think a lot of what darkheart777 needs to happen plus a boatload of really mainstream apps. Not the crap they release every day.

I however don't think it's going to happen and personally i think Palm is on it's last legs. Short of a miracle it's getting bought, which would be a plus, or it's going to eventually fade away.

My worry is that all of this doom and gloom will scare off what few dev's we have now. Thus causing less apps and less hype. What person these days wants to buy a phone with no new apps and the possibility that the company sending you updates and supporting the phone (backups) won't be around for the next year or two. It looks very grim at this point and it makes me sad. :(

then need to pay for them like the launch apps or hire a bunch of people to make apps like they have people making the facebook app. But sorry, a lot of the current developers are making a lot of apps that few people want. There are clearly some good ones but there are a lot apps being made that are just not ever going to attract the sort of users the platform needs.

Spot on. The biggest problem is apps. Paid apps headed for the UK next week and i bet it won't be full of apps that people will want to buy.

Actually, the doom & gloom isn't as disheartening as crap like this: "I think a lot of what darkheart777 needs to happen plus a boatload of really mainstream apps. Not the crap they release every day."

The user community for Palm has the streak of really negative people making very ignorant statements. Seriously these guys need to dust off the rhetoric about "crappy apps" and find something else to troll about.

The Palm community has a lot of fanboys hollering Palm was a buy at $10. They are also just like you and think the garbage apps that get released everyday are supposed to win new users and converts. I'm not gonna name names cause i'm sure someone tried hard and put a lot of effort into some apps. If you have thousands of good apps you can release that stuff and have no issue but if you launch with 30 apps and wait months to add new ones you better bring it with good mainstream apps. Call me a troll all you want. I couldn't care less. If you think WebOS has mostly good apps well good for you. I think it's got a bunch of crap with some rare exceptions. Life ain't a charity. If they don't give people what they want they'll go somewhere else. To the tune of 500,000 Palm phones sitting on shelves. And they've no one to blame but themselves. It's not negativity. It's reality.

I hear you typing, but all I see is "troll, troll, troll". The *reality* is that there is room for more players than Rim, Apple and HTC/Google. The *reality* is people love to kick something when it's down, and the *reality* is that negative bile like you're perpetuating helps create more negativity. Move on to Android, you and the big G will get on like a house on fire.

All he here from you is "Wha! Wha! Whaaa!" Nobody said there wasn't room for players. The players need to meet customer's expectations. But see i know. you're a developer. YOu're just offended cause i don't like the WebOS apps. Sorry. Don't care. Maybe you make great apps. But most are uninteresting to most people. Sorry the truth hurts. Here's the "reality": Palm phones are not selling well at and the company has been in downward spiral for months. I'm not perpetuating negativity. The situation is already negative by their own doing. Your just apologizing for their misteps. Being a Palm apologiest doesn't change reality. And the "reality" is the only house on fire right now is Palm's.

I'm offended because based on your statements, you haven't even *purchased* a webOS app, much less perused the catalog. Your statements about the apps available clearly indicate your ignorance. Yet you feel the need to perpetuate the myth that no major players have developed webOS apps and that no good apps are available.

That is why the "troll" label sticks. Also, by your tenacity one would almost believe you were paid to be here. You're spitting on a community that just wants Palm to weather the storm and prove what we already know: webOS is great and a worthy competitor.

Why not troll Gizmodo for a bit?

i don't care what or why you label. me i have bought webos apps. But i don't need more games and that's mostly the only good apps. I didn't say there are no major players. But there aren't many. I'm a realist. most of the apps are lame. i'm just not some palm fanboy. I'm not spitting on the Palm community. nothing i've said is untrue. Fanboys just don't like reality.

And the truth is that Apple and Google have just as much crap in their App catalogs. Brighthouse has something like 70+ PAGES of apps in the Apple catalog. 70+ pages of crap.

Oh, and yes, you are a troll. Get a life you sad, sad little man.

I absolutely agree with this. There are so many ungrateful, spoilt Palm owners on this site.

Personally? I wouldn't swap my Palm Pre for any other phone on the market. I'm thoroughly pleased with it but at the same time acknowledge that there's always room for improvement.

The Pre Plus is able to compete with the best of them, it's mindshare that's the problem, the hardware and software are fine, better than fine.

windows mobile has been at a stalemate for years and still have apps and they're making new ones. "If palm builds it they will come"

The only light I see in this tunnel right now is a patched LED flash. I mean, that I'm seeing more and more friends starting to say "hey, what is up with this Pre thing?"

A month ago, none of my friends had one. This month, 3 of them do, with a couple more looking at dumping their iPhones for one.

I can't tell if this is a case of "too little, too late," or if all these massive discounts are finally working. All I know is that I'm gonna roll the dice and take advantage of this fire sale on Palm stock on Monday.

thede so called analyst make me laugh they sure can predict everything like 6 months before lehman went under they were all saying to buy it I guess that's why most of then don't have a job these days palm is been in business for more than 20 years and will continue to

And Fannie Mae and AIG, the Madoff scandal. These guys are brilliant aren't they? I saw a video where a guy predicted this something like six years before and nobody gave a rats ass about it. Now Palm doom and gloom.

Buy low sell high. Even if Palm is sold the stock price would go up. Let's hope if it happens RIM gets WebOS and uses it wisely.

Palm needs to announce new hardware yesterday

New hardware announcement means Palm will have to pay Waste Management to haul away 1,000,000 obsolete units sitting in their warehouse. So we can add a large garbage bill to their advertising and R&D expenses.

Id say the same that I did in the earlier post about the palm patent, as the discussion were just about... surprise... palm stock:

Do I care Palm ceases exist? NO, if in order to survive palm need to stop making and improving what is doing now and then begin to just create copy cats of the flashy android device of the year.

I DO care about not going back to the hidden rubbish I have had to stand with an iphone and a HTC android device.

I DO care about the fact that webOS and palm device design are asymptotically close to what I WANTED in a device when I screamed in frustration when using one of the aboves.

The problem is that they need to sell THIS or improvements of THIS, and a lot of the people tend to not support the underdog, but just to cry about it and buy something else.

People that dont know webOS... still dont know webOS.
People that know webOS dont evangelize, just cry.

Build Quality (TM)

Massive Lag (TM)

Soon (TM)

Trifecta baby! Thats how you get a $4 stock... Rinse and repeat...

Boring Apps (TM)

Boring Trolls (R)

Fanboy crybabies (TM)

Google Employee trolling Palm Boards (R)

I gotta go but i'll check back later. i'm sure you'll have proof of my google employment by then. awaiting the quote.

I saw you on Google street view going into a Google office with a Google employee badge. :)

Can you get me a deal on a Nexus One? Love my Pre but that thing is kills it in the HW department.

Seriously. The pictures should still be their. Hopefully someone will post the link of the google picture. Sorry the dude is paranoid. Hell if google is actually hiring let me know. I'll work there. I'll send a resume.

But the guy who leveled the charge still hasn't substantiated his claim that i'm a google employee. But the way he is. just making stuff up.

Not only did I imply you were a Google plant but that you are a boring troll. Hey, I'm batting 500 at least.

You sir are an idiot. "Google employee?" Feel free to point out any post on this thread that i've made promoting Google or Android phones? Type the quote below please. Type below my own words where anywhere in this thread i said, yeah go buy an Android phone or a google product. You won't though cause i haven't said anything close. And honestly do you really think a big company like that that currently makes pretty much zero off its operating system is hiring people to go into message boards and say bad things about little old palm. Google's stock is at 560. Palm is at 4. Google could just buy palm with the loose change between the cushions in its coutch and squish it if it was really concerned. What you accuse me of makes no sense. but i'm still waiting for those quotes for where i've promoted Google or Android.

Not culling idiots on the site (TM)

i just hope flash get's released before Palm goes under. That can at least keep my phone useful until it's time for a new phone in nearly a year.

yeah! I agree. If palm can't put out a better hardware by the end of the summer, in my opinion it will be game over for them. Lets no forget that the nexus one is going to be in all 4 mayor carriers and sprint is going to launch the first 4G device in the supersonic, so palm have to make their move...and they need to do it now!!!!

Seriously don't get any of the Android hype, and I've had to develop for the platform. The Nexus One and the Droid are nowhere near the design & build quality of the iPhone and the Android OS is absolutely terrible compared to webOS (and even iPhone).

I've wanted a high-end webOS device since day one. I didn't buy the Pre for the squishy plasticy feel.

I am truly sad. That's the only word I can think of.

I have been waiting soooooooooooo patiently (most-often, anyways) for the GSM WebOS phone to hit ATT, so I can replace my trusty Centro. Now, I doubt that it will ever come to be. I am stuck in a world where the best marketing machines always win, not the best products. General Motors, VHS, Windows, Droid phones...


What happens to the phone if the company fails to exist??? Will the cloud service still work?

Just move your data to the Google cloud. By ditching the desktop PIM, Palm made it easier, and some say attractive, to ditch Palm.

Developers will stop investing their time and effort on new webOS software.
Updates to existing webOS apps will probably be put on hold.
Palm employees will start to update their resumes.
Other tech companies will take this opportunity to recruit Palm employees with worthless stock options.
Carriers cut back on advertising existing Palm devices.
Carriers become less enthusiastic about any new Palm device.

If Palm stays the course, they will be a zombie company with no particular direction to go.

Its hardware not software Palm. The OS is great the shell you decided to put it ins kinda sucks. Although I haven't had any problems with my Pre, I would like to have the keyboard and screen a little bit bigger.

I would also like more control over syncing contacts....When adding email/im/facebook/yahoo accounts. Let me pick which accounts I want the contacts to since.

O and Palm, Voice recognition would be huge. Picture it - speaking and the words magically appear on the screen. This could be huge due away with typing all together.

Re: Voice Recognition - There isn't a single solid, affordable, voice recognition program out there. Period.

The software is very good but way too slow. Cool is nice. Easy to use is nice. If you wait, and wait, and hit the button twice, and go to the wrong app, and wait some more... It doesn't matter how good the software is.

Maybe that is a HW issue to some extent BUT the Pre has the same memory and processor as an iPhone 3GS and the 3GS blows it away in speed.

Seems like software to me.

Hang in there Palm!

for those who think that $ will solve the ad and new hardware issue are dead wrong. Palm getting the webos to port iphone apps in as little as two, three weeks will be the trojen horse that enables new sales growth. Palm is under its first generation device. And they are way ahead of apple and google when comparing apples to apples.

So the stock took a hit. Big deal. Let palm go private and develop a open plataform form with webos and see them come out stronger with better software and harware.

here. Here. For palm and its future success.

Pre is not a first generation device, it's probably the third gen device. And sales are slowing not growing, so to say they're ahead of Apple is really a sad understanding of the market.

By definition, the first device you release is your 1st Generation device. It doesn't matter how many iterations it went through in house.

Screenwriting is the same: the writer works on draft after draft after draft. It could be as many as 20, but the exact number is irrelevant. The version that you send out to agents/studios/etc is always the first draft.

Treo 600 and back to Handspring days was the first generation. 650 - 755 and Centro was the second generation. Pre and Pixi are the third generation. Palm has been building Smartphones longer than anybody. A case could even be made that the 700w, 800 and Treo Pro were also a generation as they were test beds for some of the tech in the Pre. To call Pre 1st gen is very very funny.

You sir missed the point entirely.

What you said has value but is irrelevant to the point being made.

Liking the way some posters in here have stopped disguising as common webOS users with their up and down opinions on the system, and are now full steam in the race to "lets help kill palm as soon as possible, please"

Palm needs to announce and show a 4g phone NOW!
They also need to make the Pre and Pixi with the fastest chip set and a memory slot. If they have the best OS and the best hardware (like the did at one time) then there is no reason that the phones will not sell and people will not invest in Palm. Think about it. If you walked into a cell phone store and asked what is the newest, hottest, best phone on the market, the sales staff would PUSH customers to the Palm products. But Palm only makes good hardware right now.

As much of a Palm loyalist as I am, The name PALM is not what I necessarily want to survive. It's this:


If they can license the OPERATING SYSTEM to other phone makers, then I think they will survive.

As long as I can still use and see the growth and development of this wonderful operating system, I really don't care if it is on a Palm phone, LG, Nokia, Sony, or whatever. Just my 2 cents' worth.

If Palm hopes to remain viable in the coming weeks, months, and years, it needs to stop manufacturing hardware and start licensing its biggest asset: WebOs. Palm's greatest strength is its OS and not its hardware. The sooner that the company realizes this, the better.

Precentral readers all know that Android is far inferior to WebOS. The reason why this inferior platform has outperformed WebOS is because it's on multiple phones. Palm should stop investing time/money/effort into refining the Pre or its successor and start licensing WebOS like crazy.

If WebOS was running on 5-10 phones on all major U.S. carriers, it's possible that people would FINALLY start to realize what an amazingly intuitive OS it is.

+1 I agree completely!

My sentiments exactly. I'd certainly like to see Palm once again become a vibrant company and a leader in this field, but frankly I am much more concerned about WebOS. I have come to love using the cards, swipes, gesture bar, notifications, etc. so much that I really dread the idea of using another phone's OS at this point. And WebOS is so elegant and practical that it would simply be a terrible shame if it were to die with Palm (not that the death of Palm is a foregone conclusion by any means!)

If it's any consolation, the Nexus 1 isn't selling either...

ya cause its on T-Mobile only, wait till its available on sprint and Palm will be in allot worse shape, and its not even available for sale anywhere in a store. Its online only.

Clearly Palm has one last arrow in the quiver. There next device must be genious or they are done. Yea the news is bad but until I hear of high level employees jumping the ship, Palm will be around for a little while.

Clearly they shipped a 1.0 device on 1.0 hardware. It has its issues. The OS is innovative and has tons of potential. But chances are Android devices will stagnate this year. Windows 7 hype will be over and Palm has a chance to sell some devices.

Derek the title of this article is just wow, couldn't be put any other way.

Truth is alot of us were seeing this but are in a state of shock an awe. We cant help but freak out every time they're on the ropes which seems to be every other month now. How much more of this can we take???

I do agree that all the advertising in the world is not going to help sell the Palm Pre/Pixi at this point in time. I have owned 2 Pre's since it was first released last June. Word of mouth is "King" and unfortunately too much negative talk has been plastered all over, mainly concerning hardware issues. Would of, should of, could of, is not going to cut it. The major fault is "HARDWARE". It's a shame because I really do love my WebOS/(Pre?) and most everyone else will agee with that. Now, at this point in the game, I say get rid of all the inventory as fast as you can. Give all the phones away! Heck, send them out in the mail the same way they give away samples of Detergent, do anything. Just get them in peoples' hands so they can see what the OS is all about. Why waste the money in advertising. Maybe then there will be a demand for WebOS which will really give it the worth it deserves.

To the End with my pre in the "Palm" of my hand.

Good Luck all!

Don't count them out yet! You know the word. Apple was counted out once...Walk on with hope in your heart! Walk on...

Apple never wrung out there most loyal supporters and gapped their product support or abandoned their top 3 selling points.

they need a commercial that actually shows the damn phone. No more of this ethereal crap with monks and holograms. The lates commerial running during the ncaa tournament doesn't show the phone at all. I doesn't even give a clear idea of where and how to get one. Not good.



I'm sick of this crap, palm just needs to go under as I don't want to hear about it anymore. Will be dumping my pre anyway when Supersonic or Nexus One is released

Are you serious? Dumping after 9 months at most? Pathetic. 6 year olds have better attention spans.

Here's a shiny new coin.... wait, that one's pretty!

Moderators, how about a split forum, divided by age groups? would save a lot of wasted scrolling.

yeah apparently you had no idea of what you were getting yourself into when you chose the Pre. You should have done your homework. And that's for anyone who feels the way he does. We all who have done ANY sort of reading up know that WebOS is an infant. As with all grows by time and effort and guidance from the people that surround it.

Palm needs to get unlocked GSMs into U.S. mkt pronto. Do some amazing "why didnt i think of that" move. A hail marys are OK in the beginning of the 4th qtr. Lower price and they'll fly. Need to resolve problem of Palm and other cos. holding all the inventory.

App designers must start producing. The overall problem is the strength of the iPhone app store.

Educate me. How does selling unlocks make the world better. Unlocks only work on GSM. Where, people pretty much have a choice of two carriers. The market consolidated, so I don't get what the unlock appeal is now. If the Pre isn't selling for $0-$100, why are $500 unlocks going to fly out the door any faster?

hey john gruber, do you want to know, why? simple....The hardware is like a Sh*t!
the webOs itself is really great!

WebOS is an amazing operating system, but I feel Palm aren't doing everything in their power to get apps out there. I'm not surprised that developers are concerned, there is no paid-for app catalog outside the US. Tweed has had several updates since and I've not been able to buy and update as a result.

They need to licence the OS out to more manufacturers, I feel that it's the OS that will make Palm florish rather than their devices, it's just that Palm's devices will give the optimized experience.

I've had the GSM Pre since November, and without a doubt it's the best device I've ever had.

Palm really do need to use this as a stern warning and pull one hell of a rabbit out the hat, because I honestly don't know what platform I will jump to if Palm doesn't last the length of my O2 contract, sneaky suspicion it'll be to Blackberry but I won't half miss the features that my Pre has.

Palm is a really innovative company, WebOS is an amazing OS. It does still need a lot of work done, but if anything they should be focused on bringing the App Catalog out of beta, and going paid-for globally so developers get paid and at least one major problem to developing on WebOS is crossed off.

I really wish people would stop talking about Apps. It's people like that who have no idea what's going on.

Why would you say that?

Although the definition of "smartphone" is arguable, I think most would agree that having apps available is one attribute of a smartphone nowadays.

And without apps, what would make the Pre stand out against even non-smartphones?

I'm not trying to troll or argue with you, I really do want to know what your reason is that people should stop talking about apps and that they have no idea what's going on. I would think that the fact that it's mentioned so many times would indicate a pretty large need.

I say this because anyone who is talking about apps where Palm and WebOS is concerned is seriously misguided and a lost soul. WebOS is in its infancy. For all intense purposes, this is Palm's first smartphone using WebOS. It's brand spanking new, a baby, a little over a year old? You and everyone else HAD to know what you were gettinginto when you bought the handset. You HAD TO! You KNEW that it would take time to get developers. So if you want to talk about apps, talk about what Palm has done to bring developers in in its FIRST YEAR....

what does it amount to? A DAMN LOT! So its not about apps, that grows with time...its about everything else that would draw developers to the company and to make apps for the company.

Apps and developers will come with time, once they see the company grow and the user base grow with it.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE DAMN APPS....its about the build quality of the phone, the advertising to bring users in, and the name brand. If they make it out of this spiral and get to solid ground and STILL have shitty apps and no developers, THEN you all can talk about the fact that Palm needs apps, but with everything they have been doing to get developers to them....that deserves some damn credit! I'm pleasantly surprised with how well they are doing bringing apps in with incentives and programs. BUT ITS NOT ABOUT THAT....its about all the other issues talked about in this comments section.

IMHO of course...

It's never been so interesting to read comments about Palm like it is now. I'm happily following the news everyday via my favorite smartphone... my Sprint Pre.

It will not surprise me to see the news cycle change. It always does as there's something in change for everyone, Investors, analysts, consumers and so on.

In that change Palm will be bought out or reinvested in. Either way I cannot see Palm going by the wayside given how the future looks for the core product, webOS.

Gaming, new PDK in all programming, and the basic webOS functionality keep me optimistic that the news will turn positive sometime soon. There's still nothing as powerful or intuitive as webOS. Period.

listen palm if you are reading this, make a better harware people don,t care the price, people want quality

Get up you son of a bitch!!! Cause mickey loves ya!

Rocky reference made my day. :)

Perfect reply!

As much as anyone might hate to admit it, including myself. If Palm were to adopt the Android OS most of their problems would go away. e.g. International App store, drawing in developers, bugs, establishing a larger fan base.

Bitch and moan all you want, but it a reality.

A better plan, in my opinion, would be to get Web OS on HTC hardware. A great mobile UI + solid hardware = a high-quality phone.

I wish i could yell that in rubys ear and he would just get up and start throwing haymakers at google and apple. enough doom and gloom. its killing my high.

I can never go back to pre-webOS notifications. I swipe and toss at other screens out of habit and just get angry. I have forgotten how to sync, since I never need to.


I'm hoping for a miracle in June. Stock market is a game. Palm needs to get above the game and simply show what they've got. FIngers on phone on the TV screen, swiping and tossing and flicking. Jaws would drop. I know Pre owners who don't even really know how to use them.

In the meantime, buy stock now. You only lose money if you panic and sell when falling. Apple shareholders from the early 90's are laughing.

Okay, I'm a newbie to investing... what's the quickest easiest way for me to buy Palm stock?, and if I was you I wouldn't be buying Palm stock, I'd be shorting it. Lot of people are going to make a lot of money off the fall of Palm's stock.

Want to buy Palm stock? Reach into your wallet and pull out four one-dollar bills or sixteen quarters. Congratulations. You now have enough to be a PALM shareholder at today's closing price.

Horrible marketing of these phones is killing Palm. I convinced a co-worker to drop AT&T service and sign up with Sprint to get a Pre and she did and loves the phone. I had another co-worker convinced to get a Pre Plus since her Verizon account is eligible for an upgrade. She is all set to do it but now has doubts because a friend of her's told her to get a Droid because Palm won't be around so why would you want to buy one of their phones, plus Droid is better per him. Everyone I show the phone to is impressed. Palm really needs to show the phone and its features off. At this point it's too late to try and move the current models, they've got to come out with something new and market the heck out of, which is hard to do with no money.

My manager recently bought a Droid and hates it, I told him he should of gotten the Pre, his wife did and loves it.

Here's hoping Palm can get this thing turned around, not impressed by any other devices out there right now, so no clue what I would do when I reach a point where I have to upgrade my Pre.

Mick wouldn't throw in the towel.. he would cut palms eye and tell em to eat lighting and crap thunder

You know Rocky lost, don't you?

I would like to stay as a previous iphone,htc hero owner that my palm pre has just turned my life around. I could not think of ever waking up and not seeing my pre looking rite at me sitting all pretty on top of that so cool touchstone. I'm not sure what's it gonna take to turn things around at palm but I need my webos device and I need to keep getting those updates we've gotten so used to receive. Perhaps someone else needs to step in and flat out by palm or something but I just hope again that webos don't become a thing of the past. Webos rocks and it's the best platform out rite now. I aint jumping ship,i aint dumping my pre for nothing..this is without question despite it's hardware faults the best device out rite now. Did someone mention webos 2.0 ? ? Lets go for it palm I'm with you 110 %

Soo I take the much anticipated Palmcast 100 is will be a mojor doomcast if not THE doomcast :(

I can hear it now...


Nice. I was looking at getting a Pre this Nov when my T Mobile contract expires. Now I'm wondering if they are still going to be around in November. *rolls eyes*

The problem with people abandoning ship is that it makes it extraordinarily difficult to put out new hardware and new software. This ISN'T trolling. This is stating a fact. Palm is hemorrhaging money left and right. R&D and software development costs $$$. Right Palm is simply on life support. I don't see how they can put out something new unless its been in development for some time now and is pretty much ready to go. But even then....

I HATE saying this, no really I do because it means Palm isn't in control anymore, but Palm need to be bought out by a company who isn't currently in the smartphone OS market. Give them an influx of cash and leadership that hasn't been using a magic 8 ball for the last god knows how many years and maybe they can pull something off.
Google, which a lot of sites are throwing around, would be an absolutely horrible choice. Ditto with Blackberry.
Apple would make me want to go on a homicidal rampage at Apple's HQ.
But say HP? Or Acer? Or even dare I think it...Dell? They have nothing invested in a current OS and wouldn't simply cannibalize Palm for spare parts. Maybe. don't know. I'm hoping for the best with Palm because it, IMHO, has the best UI of any smartphone OS out there, but I'm not getting good vibes from them right now. *sighs*

Dell... I like it. Maybe they could bundle WebOS smartphones with their computers. Maybe even integrate them somehow (Touchstone charger in the base of the monitor? Ok, probably a bad idea, but there must be something they could do.)

Dell does sell wireless phones. Nokia is trying to start a new wireless linux O/S with Siemens. Rim does need a modern multimedia o/s. So opportunities are out there. Hopefully the low stock price will draw one of them in before Apple buys Palm for pennies on the dollar and implodes Palm HQ.

they need to hit the iphone in the mouth with a marketing campaign like apple has done to PC. Stir up some attention while being polite and addressing valuble features. Lets stop the silly people using a phone with background music. That does not show me why I need the palm pre and not the iphone. - KG

Palm phones are overproduced, apparently it is a niche product. WebOS is awesome and I love my pre. The sad thing is that the bigger smartphone OS developers now have a window of opportunity to copy the best parts of WebOS and call it their own. Palm is in a strange position in my opinion. It's like they just launched OSX, but they are apple of 1997. Great product, yet they are being dominated by the competition. Part of this is a supply-side issue. Production needs to be scaled back and quality needs to take front and center. I would prefer having to wait for a great phone than having access to a cheap smartphone with poor build quality. The folks that buy a Bugatti know it is built to order. I believe that in order to survive the pre-2 has to be a status symbol with remarkable quality.

DROP THE PRICE on those million phones to ZERO dollars/no rebates. I know they want money now, but the more phones they get into people's hands, the less Androids. People will see how great of a phone WebOS is. What Palm needs now is MARKET SHARE, even if it means losing money temporarily. Also, more people will be excited about the next generation Pre.

I believe Palm could turn things around, but the question is, Do they have time?

I agree with a previous commenter and would like to offer that Palm would have been better off to either (A) charge more but have vastly superior hardware, or (B) deeply discount the phone such that it would be the equivalent of the RAZRs of yesteryear. - Who wouldn't want to develop for millions of potential users. BOOOOOO!

I would also like to add that marketing is never a guarantee, it is more of an artform than a science But raw numbers (this many sold, etc), that is an equation that just makes sense.

Stop wasting your money on TV and start a program where current palm owners can offer free Pre or Pixi phones to 2,4, or (the humanity) 5 people, that's VIRAL.

I'd like a viral solution.

Ten or fifteen second mini-commericals, demonstrating a webOS capability, with eye candy (Go Daddy style) and a last second invitation "see for more". Line the site with follow on info, and other videos that showcase Palm features. Might have to rely on "sex sells", but should be an efficient way to raise the mindshare of males 18-35 with less money spent.



Is there any way to get all those phones that are on the shelves use the parts to make it a PLUS, screw the PRE, stick to just pluses and send all those phones to new carriers, Do a global launch, put every you got into it, well, give yourselves a 6 months period for cash, i'm sure palm has enough cash to hold them out for a year.

Palm implemented a flawed product strategy with the webOS

The CEO's statements through different outlets have essentially admitted to this as being the root cause by pinpointing launch partnership (the nature of the partnership and not launch partner), launch timing, marketing strategy.

Staying with the product strategy view, (and realizing that hind-sight is 20/20) there are lots of tweaks that Palm could have done: assuming more responsibility for the ad campaign to increase brand recognition, differentiating the webOS experience, different ad campaign, providing a free upgrade path for existing palm OS users (free classic app).

I believe that as things stand, all is NOT lost!

It turns out that for Palm at this stage, they probably need multitude positive coverage:

* Press releases on product road-map (possibly an outline of plan B & plan C)
* Aggressive ad campaign with a common message and theme targeted at:
** everyday mobile users
** business mobile users
** gamers

The slogan, "Life moves fast. Don't miss a thing." will work as long as it is followed up with others such as:

** "Life moves fast. Move ahead."
** "Life moves fast. Connect! Soar!!

in an appropriately themed commercial.

Finesse and subtleties will probably not work at this point.

People want apps, Palm can't offer them that. A big majority of the apps are not that great. I know that Apple has some bad ones but their good ones are there to counter that, Palm can't do that. Non US users still in Beta and will there be any apps that a UK user can use on the iPhone in the Palm app store? No and so this is turning people away. I said before that i was talking to someone who works for o2 and he said that people walk away because they can't get the same apps as they can on other platforms.

Just opened the app store and there are very few apps that a user outside of the US could use and even then they have been released a while ago but keep turning up as released 'Today'.There are 447 in the UK app store, all free and 98% of them are for US users and i expect that the paid apps will be the same.
Its been nearly 6 months and the apps aren't getting any better, even more so for the non US user. It would be a pleasant surprise if developers wrote apps for the UK user but i can't see that happening and most of the big UK app developers are working on the iPad and Android phones.

Maybe Palm should license the OS, build some money up from that and then churn out a new and better phone somewhere down the line.

*sighs* The problem isn't with Apps. At least its not a major problem. The problem is with hardware, marketing, and simply lack of momentum with their OS. Android is growing faster then WebOS because they have a metric crap ton of phones to choose from. Palm has two. (No I WILL NOT count the Plus as new phones.) Palm has an identity crisis right now. Do they want to be a hardware manufacturer or an OS distributer? Because right now they are pretty much hosed if they try and be both. If they just focused on the OS and said handset manufacturers can have it for less then Windows Phone 7 (assuming there wasn't a metric crap ton of bugs in it.) you would get a greater set of handsets and things would start to take off from there. And then get back into the handset frey. If they wanted to be a hardware manufacture....well Palm hardware + Android with tweaks to make it more WebOS like would rock.
Pick your poison because right now both aren't working.

And don't point at Apple as an example where both work. Apple has a huge captured audience. If any other handset came out with the feature set the iPhone came out with on day one it would have tanked within 6 months. Apple has its fanbase and knows marketing. Palm had its fanbase 5 years ago. What it has now are people wanting to believe and as we can see that just isn't enough anymore.

Can anyone tell me why they haven't started showing the awesome videos that they have in the Palm Video app on television? Those are awesome commercials! (Hecka lot better than Creepy Lady and the Wonder Moms!)

Whenever I show off my Pre, I just open that app and it does all the work for me! People just go "oooh, where can I get one?" Then, I tell them to go to :-)

Seriously, download the app and show these suckers off!

Ha! "Creepy Lady and the Wonder Moms"

That would be an awesome band name.


This is why being a public company truly sucks...others dictate your fate. Some ass forecaster puts the death grip right around your neck. For God sake look at sirius, its been below a dollar give or take for years. One of my favorite quotes of all time is "The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable."

Good Luck Palm!

I've only seen a few commentators discuss the possibility of Palm becoming a private company. Does anyone know what the repercussions of this would be, aside from the common stockholders losing what little equity they have left?

Even if Palm ceases to exist as a publicly-traded company, I imagine it would be possible to continue in existence as some sort of private entity. Perhaps Palm could go private for a bit, retool and refocus its product and marketing efforts, recapitalize, and then re-enter the market better than ever.

I seriously doubt that this would happen. There are too many vultures waiting to feast on Palm's intellectual property.

Taking it private would entail paying off the stockholders and assuming Palm's debt. The current management team already has $425 million invested in the company. So paying off the rest of the stockholders would still face Palm's debt and mounting competition that continues to steal mindshare and marketshare from Palm. So there is no purpose for privatizing other than to block an acquisition or takeover.

Venture capital is about buying or starting something cheap, invest some money and management into it, and jump out with a big profit after a nice spike in the share price.

The answer for Palm's slump is the same answer that Apple needed back when Jobs jumped on board as CEO:

1. Super hot new hardware
Apple = iMac
Palm = C40 (I pray!)

2. Hot new upgrade to the OS
Apple = OS 9/OSX
Palm = WebOS 2.0 (I pray!)

3. Super awesome marketing that makes me want to wet myself when I see it on TV.
Apple = Think Different/Switch/Get A Mac
Palm = So far, the best I have seen is the Palm Videos.

By the way, licensing the OS nearly killed Apple, and it nearly killed Palm last go around. Bad idea. Making it open source and allowing people to see the code for the OS is awesome, but don't license it or allow other companies to make phones with it. There is not enough profit in it to make it worth the money, not for a company as small as Palm. Plus, then you have fragmentation out the wazoo (i.e. Windows Mobile Classic Series 6 Phone Series Poo Poo whatever they call it now).

Free Classic OS app would have been a smart move, but I don

The problem with your comparison between apple and palm is

1. Super hot new hardware
Apple = iMac
Palm = C40 (I pray!)

Palm's Pre was Supposed to be the iMac equivalent. Now they have leftovers.

2. Hot new upgrade to the OS
Apple = OS 9/OSX
Palm = WebOS 2.0 (I pray!)

WebOS is the new hot upgrade to PalmOS and still needs work. Any number jump is meaningless because they will not throw away the OS that they just "invented"

Otherwise, I agree

Dear Palm, let me offer you my advice. Whatever you do, do not follow the advice of anyone on this message board, especially mine. Yes, there may be couple half decent ideas, but only you know where your company is and what ideas fit with where you want to go.

Good luck,

I dunno, we are the owners. It's either us, or their investors, no?

I'm a Sprint launch date Pre owner (still love my phone and wouldn't trade it for any of the other phones) and a PALM investor (I'm losing alot but thinking of buying some more at these prices).

I'm just as bummed as everyone else. But I chuckle everytime I read the title and "drops Palm like a hot rock made of death"! Classic!

Thanks for the laugh ... definitely needed it today.