Analyst not thrilled by TouchPad prospects | webOS Nation
 
 

Analyst not thrilled by TouchPad prospects 163

by Tim Stiffler-Dean Sat, 11 Jun 2011 12:17 am EDT

While the webOS faithful are certainly excited for the TouchPad to arrive on the first of next month, there are some analysts, specifically Mark Moskowitz of JP Morgan, that are looking at the tablet device with a cautious eye. The problem, he says, is that the price points of the TouchPad when compared to the iPad, and the success (or lack thereof) of other non-Apple products over the past year will make it difficult for the HP device to gain any significant market share with webOS this year. Says Mr. Moskowitz:

"While we expect HP’s webOS platform to be a differentiating factor compared to the many Android tablets expected to reach the market, we do not think the price points on the TouchPad are aggressive enough to attract the incremental buyer from the iPad. Plus, the lack of wireless connectivity and limited storage options are a setback. We will look to additional data points as the TouchPad hits the market in coming weeks, but for now, we are lukewarm." 

Ouch. But are these complaints the end of the story? Is the TouchPad doomed to fail just because Mokowitz says so? He says right at the start of that quote that HP's webOS will serve as a differentiating factor for those people looking for something other than iOS or Android devices, and if we take a look back over the last few weeks, we can find some other interesting statements.

On June 1st, for example, Moskowitz told us that manufacturers of non-Apple tablets were going to see a large cut in the number of products they're building this year. They believe, quite simply, that they'll build more products than they'll actually sell, and a large surplus of these types of devices will be costly for the competition (He does say that Apple will likely continue with 38 million devices built this year). On June 9th he again made cuts to his previous estimates, and even said that the PC market (which HP is currently leading in) will potentially see a drop in greater than 0.2% (as more people go to the iPad and other Apple products).

With all of that said, things are looking pretty grim for the webOS tablet, and even HP in general with their PC division. Right? Well, maybe not. Moskowitz is making those statements based off of current trends with devices that have had little or no success, running on an operating system that has had trouble gaining traction (Android 3.0) and has had compatively minimal advertising support when weighed against the iPad.

Enter the HP TouchPad, or the "differentiating factor", if you will. This is a device that needs to have the polish that other tablets are lacking, and a matching price to the iPad just to make a statement. HP cannot afford to spend $1.2 billion on a company and product opportunity to let it fall into the pit that is mediocre tablets. HP needs a device that says "We aren't the iPad, sure. But we also aren't the Xoom, PlayBook, Galaxy Tab, or Transformer. We've built this product the way you want it. Like nothing else."

Obviously, we still have to give all of this some time to actually see what's going to happen. We're hopeful and confident that HP will put out a product (and the accompanying marketing campaigns) that will show consumers that they can raise their standards again for non-Apple products. It's entirely possible that Moskowitz is right in his predictions, but we're hoping this ends up as another case of an analyst spending too much time with the crystal ball and not enough with the product. The TouchPad is not an Android, Windows, Apple, or RIM tablet - it's "Number One Plus", remember?

Source: Boy Genius Report and Tech Trader Daily (1) (2)

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163 Comments

seriously... the typos anymore in precentral's articles are brutal. look at the title. doesn't anyone proofread?

Though WOPR didn't proofread, I too have noticed multiple typos in the last Precentral articles. The difference is that Precentral is the biggest news site concerning webOS and should therefore have a minimum of journalistic capabilities.. See it as constructive criticism, I still enjoy reading every bit you can deliver about webOS.

Sad statements like these create perception of people. I have used all OS personally nothing can come close to webos. Lets hope it stays longer against all odds.

If a snappy interface were enough, it would be easy to dismiss the negatives. But, what has HP done to embrace users, carriers and developers? They've been shooting themselves in the foot, month after month. When was the last time HP had "good news" for anybody related to WebOS? The app sector is death, the hardware is death, the reputation among techies is death, the wireless support is death. Palm and HP worked very hard to make Android the Apple-alternative, its getting late in the game to try to push back the rising Tide.

Whose up for some Arby's!!!!!

And you are writing the same stuff... month after month...

Getting boring.

HP doesn't change. Newby, enjoy the ride, someday you'll be in my shoes.

You need to keep in mind that simply having a great OS doesn't necessarily mean that the product will be competitive.

Let's put things in perspective. At one time most of the analysts predicted Apple's eventual bankruptcy. To say that you should take ANY analyst's analysis with a grain of salt is understating it. Take a salt block with you.

And Apple was dead. Then they invented Ipod, which was a mile ahead of the brutal MP3 players already out, and that kept them alive. Then they embraced PC users and got the thrust they now enjoy as they grow magnitudes beyond their greatest dreams. HP showing up with a better tablet, cast in thick shiny plastic with no content and the same price...start over.

I think that Palm ended and HP is starting over. I don't know whether the TouchPad will be successful or not. I also don't know what kind of discussions HP is having behind closed doors with carriers, retailers, and developers. It could be aggressive, it could be nothing.

At this point, everything is pure speculation. Optimistic webOS users' hopes and analyst (some professional, many more right here in the comments) predictions alike. All speculation.

I'm going to take a wait and see approach.

Unfortunately, what HP needs is for people to NOT take a wait and see approach. They need consumers to jump in with both feet. They need developers to jump in as well. Many developers took a wait and see approach with webOS back in '09 and you see where things are today.

I say it's unfortunate because I think the same thing is going to happen again.

Oops, I should have been more clear.

I hope to buy a TouchPad as soon as I can afford one (birthday present to myself in a few months?)

My "wait and see" reference was intended to indicate that I'll try to not speculate about the future success of the TouchPad. After I buy one, I'll wait to see whether it is successful, all the while wishing webOS the best of luck :)

Got it.

As a developer, I had an app ready as soon as the app store opened (although I had to delay because the webOS version that ushered in 3rd party devs also had a canvas bug that broke my app!). I worked with Palm - even got in on a few promotions they ran - but at the end of the day, I didn't even break even on the webOS gamble. Needless to say, now that my test hardware can't be updated (would need all new hardware), and HP could care less about me as a small developer (My developer relations rep has "moved on" and the replacement doesn't return my calls), there is no way I'm going to invest in the TouchPad/Enyo.

To top things off, only 2 customers that I surveyed even had an *interest* in the TouchPad while a majority have moved on to Android (few to iOS) and are asking me to do the same.

So, if I have a Mojo app that "works" on the TouchPad, do you think I'm going to invest in rewriting my app into Enyo or Android? Believe me, my money will go to an Android tablet first!

this is JP Morgan. They are financial analysts. They predicting negative outlook for apple at the time was 100% correct because they weren't putting out anything good. When the facts change, like a hot selling product, a loyal following, a history of innovation, and a string of several successful product launches the analayst turned positive. now always take analaysts with a grain of salt but they were right to say sell palm when it was at 10. An analyst outlook is not an iron clad look into the never ending future. They may not be saying buy microsoft now but that doesn't mean it can't change in a few weeks. they can often be wrong but guess what they are all saying unload RIMM when it was in the 60s and they are all saying RIMM is in decline, don't buy it now. And they are right.

as for apple. Well they apple created a product better then all the others at a better price point. HP isn't doing that with webos. It's offering what the others offer and in the app area less but at the same price.

Considering Palm's track record, HP's current issues, and their track record it's perfectly understandable why an analyst is taking a wait and see approach. If it sells well they'll change their opinion.

analysts are about trying to predict things that will make huge profits and change the outlook of a company. considering how small mobile is relative to the size of HP and the competition in tablet space i understand why they may think it's not going to turn huge profits for hp. They are about money. And the touchpad may have a nice launch. I'm not exactly expecting it to turn such a profit it will turn around hp and make me want to buy hp stock.

What Apple did was create a marketing machine greater than anyone else's.

FTFY

sad indeed...being that JP Morgan is full of crooks whose analysts didn't tell anyone of the looming housing crisis (along with the other banks). they are most likely under the Jobs spell and are acting in interest of their client apple stock holdings. i would take this with a cube size grain of salt.

the product is great, and i think a lot of people are underestimating the size of HP. i used to work at best buy a couple years ago, and 75-80% computers i sold were HP. webos on HP computers will reach the masses without them having to take a chance on a 100% webos product. once they try it, and most likely fall in love, hello market share.

Is anyone surprised by this? "We do not think the price points on the TouchPad are aggressive enough to attract the incremental buyer from the iPad." Many of us have been saying that the Touchpad should be priced aggressively (ie: $50-100 cheaper) to gain marketshare, since we cannot yet compete against the Ipad2 in flashy apps. Otherwise, why would the casual shopper who is comparing against the Ipad2 and all the apps that their friends at work or school talk about, ever choose HP? Build a userbase first, then app developers will come.

But Touchpad WILL be priced cheaper thsn iPad, even with matching list prices. Apple enforces a very strict "no-markdown" policy on its hardware. Anyone who offers more than a 5% markdown will soon lose access to the product. HP has no such restrictions in place.

Expect to see $50 markdowns on the Touchpads within the first three months, and more thereafter.

I was thinking the same. It's no big deal really as the market will determine whether the price is too high.

The problem with that is that you're now dependent on the public taking a second look at your product at a different price PLUS you're probably facing different competition now.

Case in point, by the time the Samsung Galaxy Tab WiFi version hit, Honeycomb tablets were there to overshadow it. By the time carriers reduced the 3G price to reveal any sort of real subsidy, iPad 2, Xoom and others presented a much higher value proposition even at a higher price.

HP's overpricing at launch won't even win over buyers determined to get something other than an iPad 2, since a lot of their motivation will be driven by price and the widely available 32GB Acer Iconia Tab Honeycomb device is $120 less than the 32GB TouchPad. Unless a buyer is deadset on WebOS (and so few are), there's no reason for them to pick the HP tablet.

Sure, the market will course correct the price after a few months, but then competitors like Visio's $350 Android tablet and Toshiba's $429 Honeycomb device will be hitting in full force. 10 inch Playbooks are also slated for release at the end of the year. Asus is now ramping up production of the $399 Transformer to meet pent up demand. And you can find these competitors at almost all of the brick and mortar locations (e.g. Best Buy, Costco, Office Depot) that TouchPad will be at.

spec wise, the TouchPad compares well to the iPad 2, even having more RAM and faster processor, but fails on design, by being thicker and weighing more. The iPad 2 design simply screams high standards design and can bear the 'Apple Tax'. Not sure what makes HP think that they can do the same with the TouchPad. The average customer won't see arguments like, synergy and WebOS this and that. On one hand you have the slick design, Apple logo bearing (mind share) iPad 2 with the massive Apps catalogue and on the other hand a lesser (looking) product, that may have great potential, but that's all that is...potential. In fact, the only 'recognisable' (by the average customer) killer feature the TouchPad has over the iPad is built-in Adobe Flash.

Agreed, to keep the Apple tax in check traditionally, Non-apples have had to offer twice the power at half the cost. Touchpad does not make that standard, advantage Android. And when we start getting tablets that run traditional windows at a good price, there is not really a place for WebOS at all.

And what screams Apple's high standards design? Aluminum, thinness, shininess? That's Apple's recipe (and its rivals like sony). I have no doubt some consumers will think that but the rest of us want a very functional device that can do more than an Ipad. I think touchstone tech probably limits design materials (maybe it adds to the touchpad's size) but it also gives the TouchPAd an elegant, unique charging mechanism plus utilize its exhibition mode. HP doesn't have to hit a homerun with the touchpad given its gigantic portfolio of consumer and enterprise products anymore than it relies on a laptop series to drive the company. But it can use the 1st gen touchpad to build into a line of tablet that gradually increase in sales. (this isn't Palm where every device launch was a make-or-break situation!)

"(...) but the rest of us want a very functional device that can do more than an Ipad."

...but TouchPad is not that device. With app catalog count in tens, not even hundreds apps, how you came to the conclusion it can "do more" than iPAd? "Do more" of what, card flicking, and flash-video watching? Happy "doing", then!

LOL

I bet the #1 used iPad app is the web browser.

I'd put my vote on the e-mail app first, with web browser and calendar 2nd and 3rd. After that angry birds obviously :)

True for any mobile smart device from any manufacturer. How is that relevant? Safari aint selling iPads. HD games, Garageband, customized magazine/newspaper apps that put the Time WebOS stuff shown thus far to shame, Netflix, Hulu....THAT sells iPads.

How do you know the app count of the TouchPad.

People in the forums have been looking for a list. If you can provide one that would be great!!

>How do you know the app count of the TouchPad.
...because I have that thing called "brains", and "common sense"???

How many TP-specific apps do you expect to see announced at launch, seriously? And how many will follow, you think?

I totally agree. Hp is in this for the long haul. I don't know why people always want webOS to be like iOS and hp to be like apple. Hp knows apple owns the consumer market and thinking that the TouchPad is going to outsell the ipad is far fetched. Hp is going heavy at enterprise and by doing so they will make themselves a player in the mobile market. Will they win ilthe consumer market right away? More likely not. But they will lay some good ground work with the TouchPad seeing that it will be available all over the place (internet, big box). Hp will lower that price for the holidays and really gain some momentum with consumers and maybe even pull in some early profit.

I think people forget that hp is a technology giant. This mobile evolution is just beginning.

webOS works like nothing else. People just don't know yet. But they will now. To me its about how it works and not how many apps there are. It's also not about "doing" more but jpw much better it does it.

Yep. Exactly. And potential doesn't sell. Results sell.

Could you please stopp bringing those negative spirits in here. We all are sufficiently critically aclaimed, if you'll catch my drift.

HP seems to be pushing this into the market and I guess it'll succeed in 2011 through 2012.

The ipad wasn't a big seller initially. It took some time and it took the second iteration to catch real momentum.

Chill, will ya. Anal - lysts.

"The ipad wasn't a big seller initially. It took some time and it took the second iteration to catch real momentum."

Huh? The iPad sold 3 million in the first 80 days or so (that's less than 3 months). It sold a ridiculous amount long before the iPad 2 was introduced.

What do you consider a "big seller"?

Shhhhh. Best to remember history the way we want to remember it.

The iPad2 completes with the big app catalog. HP needs to have the Touchpad compete in a way the iPad does not is all and we already got some hints on some of that.

agreed that the price is not aggressive enough.

Its too late at this time, we shall see how good or bad it will be.

All it can do now, barring lower prices at the last minutes, is to do good marketing.

I got a droid tablet that was so cut throat on price, I could see real value. I'm one that didn't want a tablet, but could see potential uses. When a silly price came my way, I jumped. It's still just a toy to me, but each week, it's a bigger part of my entertainment and interactive life. Apple is known for great interfaces, so even if your interface is better, you're gonna need more than that to get units off the self at the same price and similar specs. Why spend $600 on an off-brand when you can have the champion of the space for the same price?

Then why buy the pre- predogs.

I was a Palm Treo user. I didn't want to give up the Treo while the Pre was so incomplete, but I decided to support the franchise and make the jump. My hope and expectation was that Palm would recognize the need for a PalmOS emulator and get some functionality. I'd hoped Classic was that too. Big mistake.

When the video support launched, it gave me the faith that WebOS would grow and develop. But that was the last time we had "good news", and it wasn't like video was a break through. Lesson learned.

FWIW, the cheapo tablet I bought has given me the familiarity to accept Android as my next phone o/s. So HP's emphasis on TP helped empower me to make things right. Thanks HP :)

LOL, my personal experience and support for Palm was downranked. How insecure and petty is that?

I would wager it is just about as insecure as checking a comment you posted 1 hour later, and commenting again about being downranked. That's just a guess though. I'm not a professional downrank/insecurity analyst.

I'm currently bed-ridden and TV sucks. I've got worse concerns than being insecure to care about petty little tallies. I laughed, made my evening, sad as that may be. I'll check it three more times in the next couple hours. I'll still laugh. Is that insecure Dr. Joyce? Tell me.

I'd say there's a smudge of insecurity there. The part where you felt a need to explain more than is necessary is what stands out. I gave that first one of yours a thumb up click. Here's hoping it gets you back to 0 from -1.

I am sorry you're bed-ridden. I don't think I would handle it very well.

Whom is Dr. Joyce? Is that the bad tv you're watching?

I'll just go on the record as saying you have it all figured out, and request some pain killers that will help me sleep until tomorrow's sports programming kicks off for Sunday.

@ahabenezer, you called me insecure twice, so if you're gonna wear the big girl psychologist panties, you have to listen to sad, uninteresting trivialities in which you base your diagnosis. You did a fair amount of response rechecking yourself on a Saturday night and I trust you were not tethered in place by IV needles.

If you dont know who Dr. Joyce is, watch more news programs, less Spongebob and Joisey Shore. :)

Have a good WebOS day! Discharge time, back to the comforts of home!

Lol. You're a troll because your post is not positive. Truth, facts and actual experience are irrelevant...unless they show webOS in a positive light.

No **** I guess those Veer Peer's are hard at work already. WebOS's road to recovery will be paved with arbitrary up/down ranks.

A cheap looking tablet running one of the least supported niche operating systems selling for the same price as the iPad? Is anyone really surprised by this?

i would hold off calling it cheap looking.

I have to agree with the other two points you made.

It does look cheap though. It's thick and has a plastic body.

Looking cheap is simply an opinion. Whether that is the opinion of the majority of consumers or not is yet to be determined.

I guess by your logic the white MacBook looks cheap but they sure sell well...

Some might say a dented tin outer shell on an iPad2 looks cheap. Still just an opinion.

I've heard it compared by a tech analyst that's handled it: "the dashboard of a fleet car Chevy vs. a BMW dashboard".

Should I consider a lease on an Aveo?

I agree that it should be competitively priced because people need an incentive to choose something other than the market and app leader.

What is this about "lack of wireless connectivity and limited storage options?". There's wifi but not 3G - just like the iPad initial release. The 64GB storage option seemed to be the least popular in my experience. It was always the model that one had the greatest chance of finding in the store.

Proper marketing made the Droid and hurt the Pre when Verizon chose one horse to back. The Droid's look and heft should have made it a non-starter. The Pre's superior operating system should have made it a winner. We all know how t really went down, though.

Market it well. Support developers. Bring the updates. Price it well.

Watch it sell.

I think having reps in kiosks at best buy will help. Also HP needs to come with a full on marketing blitz and get webOS in front of people.

I also think this guy is talking out of his **** It's easy to say the TP will fail because so far everything has except the iPad. HP has a quality product here. The price point is fine compared to iPad. If HP handles the marketing right this will be a slam dunk.

"If HP handles the marketing right this will be a slam dunk."

But they won't.

They should hire you since you've led so many multi-billion dollar companies through such growth lately ;)

"But they won't."

Based on what? Their marketing has helped sell billions of dollars worth of computers, laptops, printers, etc. I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

But you don't know that...

Hi all,

Wait is it the end of the world if HP has to drop the price???? If they have to they have to...

Besides, this guy isn't GOD for all we know this will be a solid hit...

Take care,

Jay

Mark is a well respected analyst at Chase and knows what he is talking about. He has been around the block for a very long time.

Wasn't JP Morgan one of the companies behind the last depression and the real reason US had to enter WWII.

And I'll bet if you scrutinize his "predictions" you'll find out he's hit and miss like they all are. Those types aren't much more reliable then your average psychic.

EDIT: I googled the guy and just about every hit was him either talking about how great Apple is or how bad everyone else is compared to Apple. Dude is basically a Walt Mossberg clone.

So what. Tablets are a new segement. Its nearly impossible to predict. It's wide open.

"The ipad wasn't a big seller initially"

According to US Today, the first iteration of the iPad sold 300,000+ units on the first day it was released.

What do you define as "big seller"?

Depends on your benchmark.

At that time some people didn't say it's "a lot" because at the same time there were 10x more iPhones sold...

Just looking at other tablets of that time (ie. Windows Slates) it was a gigantic success.

As for HP, they just need another "cheaper" solution, which they might find in the 7"-webOS tablet. Then beat first RIMs Tablet in sales, then try to get competitive against all those Android-tablets and THEN have a look at the iPad...

It's absolutely enough if they sell a few million (like 3 to 5) of those Touchpads until the end of the year. Then they can start to further ramp up their portfolio by next year.

I guess a lot of people here don't see that HP is about to turn around the whole company and concentrate them around the cloud and such devices, where webOS is one basic peace in it. They won't stop producing webOS devices just because they haven't conquered the world with their first iteration.

These analyst is going to grade hard because ipad has the lead on everything. This is a new market, so until new and of market are achieve, their review is worthless to me. They don't truly know what they talking about.

Sorry. You lost me at "analyst".

Analysts. Weathermen. Sports Writers. The only people who can be wrong all the time and still keep their jobs.

funny... :)

Some analyst said google , and netflix was a fad....We all know how correct they were on tht...

just one thing comes to my mind as an imediate comment: no sh.t, Sherlock!

Instead of quoting "Mr. Mark Moskowitz of JP Morgan", you should do the same you usualy do here - ban him from this site, for criticizing sacred HPalm/WebOS, and pointing out the obvious.

Like you have "Predoodle:" prefix in your returning theme posts, there is another prefix proposal for you, to tag things like that: "From the department of bleeding obvious:(...)". Because bleeding obvious it is, that price tag will kill TP, as sure as a cross bread of Anthrax with smallpox. And tragicomical thing is, it would most probably sell quite good, if not fantastic, at the $350-$400 range for the base 16GB model, followed by $450 for 32GB model. Which is what ANY non-Apple tablet is realy worth to a consumer (at most!).

Problem is, muppets in marketing departments have had their brains overheating from the margins that Apple is making, and they are labouring under the "me-too" gold-rush frenzy mode, regardless there's very little reason to price these pads that high - apart from deluded wishful thinking, and pure, undiluted corporate greed.

Actually, many Android tablet manufacturers are finally getting to that. And they start offering tablets at these price points (and better specified than Touchpad is, at that).

Muppets from marketing departments understand very little (apart from how to progress they own little careers), thus they do not realize, that there are 100s of reasons why Apple can afford ridiculously high prices (and not only on iPads, if that little detail have slipped your attention), and 100s of reasons why no one else can afford the same ridiculously high prices. Much less so an OS, that have already started in the race once, boasting proudly "an iPhone killer" badge, and have failed miserably in the marketplace (despite being the best thing ever, I know - not the first, and not the last technology that has been driven to the ground by poor management and marketing).

Besides, don't them so-called "consumers" ever think, as WHY tablets are so stupendously expensive, even when they are packing LESS expensive components, than for example mainstream laptops? Do these "consumers" ever bother to think why it is that base model can be sold (presumably, not at the manufacturer loss) for a $100 less, than the one equipped with 16GB more flash silicon? Since when 16GB of flash costs $100? That is but another proof that these prices are not at all driven by a reason, but by greed only.

Greed, my corporate friends, is one of the deadly sins. Stupidity, in my humble opinion should be added as the 8th one, but some would find it unfair, I guess.

HP's TouchPad is overpriced because HP needs to break even on costs.

Unfortunately, HP is delusional.

...no, they do not need to "break even on costs", not in 2010, anyway. They do need to even subsidize it, if necessary (I do not think it would be necessary to subsidize hardware costs to keep price in reasonable range - re Asus Transformer. Just swallow the costs of developing WebOS, covre it from your "bucketloads of cash", and do not expect to make killing on TouchPad 1 hardware, instead showel it globally using your reach in millions), and they do need to push it as hard as they can, to get the userbase, to convince developers they are a steal, and that users will flock to WebOS. Instead, they are indeed "breaking even", and are killing WebOS in the process, because it cannot afford another fail, and boy, what an epic fail it will be, at that price tag.

Beside, Asus is "breaking even", and I daresay making some handsome money on $400 better-specced, better-equipped Transormer, right?

HP may be the revenue heavy in the ring, but a quick look at their profit margins, P/E ratios and market cap, makes me think they'd be better off registering as a non-profit agency and save some tax money. If they dont start making money on something soon, Samsung or Hitachi is going to buy them for a few billion in the next three years.

Who cares about this analyst? I am buying me a TP despite what this jack*ss says. It is just as not going to see a movie because a moron critic didn't like the movie as if he knows what my preferences are. TOUCHPAD YOU ARE MINE July 1st!!!

He's not a jack*ss. He is a respected analyst that wants to make sure you don't spend nearly $600 on something that will be $99.00 on eCost Hotsheet by Christmas, ok?

Where did you see that? Show your numbers?

Dude, EVERY product eventually has a price drop. @riceldi and others are correct. Who gives a flying flip what this guy or any of the so-called smart people who have run this country in the ground, or might be pulling for a certain product, so they write articles like this one in hopes that the WEAK minded consumer bites hook, line and sinker....all speculations.

Finally, a voice of reason. Come on people, just admit it, the touchpad IS overpriced.

Aside from the obvious (weighs more, is thicker), the touchpad doesn't even have a rear camera, nor do I believe it has a 3-axis gyroscope, but HP is pricing this just like an iPad?

Come on HP, get real. You'd be better off pricing this appropriately (ie: cheaper) so those who can't afford the iPad, will get this device, then when you finally perfect things (I'm not holding my breath on that one either), then you can price it comparably with the ipad.

HPalm is playing a very dangerous game right now. If they don't sell a ton of units at the higher price (which they won't), the media will again reinforce the notion that no one cares for webos. This will then push HPalm to lower the price, seeming desperate - again creating a mass exodus of developers. (history just keeps repeating itself with Palm, doesn't it)

EDIT: Voting me down without any justifiable reason only shows your ignorance and fanboyism.

it does have 3 axis gyro

source? I could not find anything on hp's site - only other sites who are speculating. I have been wrong before and will stand corrected, but the ipad2 is still slimmer and still has an additional camera.

The rear cam on ipad is cheap

Still one more rear camera than the TP and that is what many prospective buyers will notice, whether they will ever use or not.

Not sure what country you're posting from, but in America, people can vote however they want.

All the people griping on this site lately, then griping about being voted down make me laugh.

1. Do these votes actually count for something? Are you running for office here on this website?

2. Isn't the point of voting showing agreement/disagreement?

Also, iPad 1 didn't have a rear camera, did weighed more, and was thicker than the iPad 2 and started at the same price point. Now, it's cheaper, but it got its start at the $499 base-model price point.

At the end of the day, I wish the TouchPad would be cheaper, but that is just because I would like to save a few bucks if I buy one.

"Also, iPad 1 didn't have a rear camera, did weighed more, and was thicker than the iPad 2 and started at the same price point. Now, it's cheaper, but it got its start at the $499 base-model price point."
Man, but it was a year ago, there was no single competitor, they have created the market, and they are APPLE, people are supposed to pay more for them, people EXPECT to pay more for them, lastly, these people already have 27 iPhones each - that is not exactly a situation that HP/TP is in now, is it???

Joe Average: "there's that iPAd thing that all the rage is about, it is the best, so it costs more than all these other tablets. That's right, I expect that. But wait, there's that TP thing, it has no camera, looks like **** next to iPad 2, every other number on the specs sheet looks the same or close enough (I don't know about that 1.2 GHz thing, is it better than 1GHz or worse?), so why it is as expensive as Apple, isn't it made by HP?"

Joe Above Average: "OK, I know these things are different, so let's compare more than the surface. It costs as much as iPad 2, but I know iPad 2 is overpriced as he11, so that one must be overpriced as well, since specs are nearly identical. But hey, it runs that coool WebOS thing. Nice, pity it never catched up and has about ho many, seven apps in app catalog? Hey, check out these three new Android models - they are actually 200 bucks cheaper, are slimmer, better looking, have better specs??? What??!?? And they have, like, 347 millions apps in pp store for Android, right, and have recently outsell iOS??? Man, that WebOS thing looks cool, pity it costs so much and no one cares about it"

So, we have seen Joe Average, we have seen Joe Above Average... Neither of them will buy it.

...then who will???

I probably will. That is, unless you tell me not too.

OR this: I could do some thinking for myself since neither of those internal monologues you wrote (using more than your fair share of question marks) represent anything that would ever play out in my head.

good for you. I do my research before buying, too. That is how I ended up with Pre- in the first place. And this is why I will wait and see, how things are unwielding, before even considering another WEbOS device. Especially after following all the silly things HPalm was doing for last year.

Unfortunately, I am old enough, and have seen & talk to enough people buying **** that is marketed right, to know that these scenarios I put in front of you are way more prelevant, that consideration and reason and base research. They (HP) will not cut their market share based on users like you and me, they haven't in the past, and they will not in the future.

i would buy it. but I like to do my research before dropping 500 bucks. I think the average Joe would too. You are not giving them enough credit. Tablets are not a necessity to most people, ie average Joe . I would say tablet purchasers will read up on what tablets are available, go to a store and try to play with every type they can get their hands on, read reviews, visit these sites, so on and so on. Its more than just comparing spec sheets and looking at the number of apps. Tablets at this point are new tech and are still out of reach for most in this economy so those that can afford it would do more thngs than how you describe it. As far as style, these things will likely be accessorized, a differentiating factor that also needs to be considered, and hp has a nice headstart with the touchstone and touch to share technology.

what do you think they will read in those "reviews" you are referring to, you want me to predict the future for you, and write typical review summary we will read "in the coming months"?

"TouchPAd is a solid device, but it is lacking any high-end specification feaures that would justify it's top-end price tag. It's WebOS operating system is top-notch and unlike anything else on the market, which is both it's blessing and the curse - because developer adoption leaves a lot to be desired, and app catalog is frankly empty, comparing to leading competitors. So unfortunately, at that price tag we cannot recommend it, against equally-priced iPad 2, or better-specified and significantly cheaper Android alternatives"

Rest in Peace WebOS, Amen.

go back and read my post - I'm not irritated by anyone voting me down. I only said that voting me down without a justifying reason is pure ignorance. My point is this: if you can't explain why you think the price is right, then you're wrong and are justifying HP's gouging the market just because you "love" webos. Is that really a reason?

Hey, I'd love to see webos make a comeback and be at the top, but it's just not going to happen. You can read the history of this company and predict every step they'll take, like a book. While I agree that analysts were negatively speculative when the pre was launched, they were right! And guess what, they're going to be right again!

As far as your other comments, well, I think bushi.mich makes valid points.

I agree. HP's behavior at this point is textbook.

No rear camera is no loss. Why would anyone want to hold a 10 inch device to take a picture or shoot video?

Those would be the millions not buying the TPs that will be sitting on the shelves.

Lots of uses for a rear cam that do not fit the traditional "pictures and videos".

It's like a copier except you snap a pic of the document and have almost a full size electronic image - great for school. Need a copy of a document? Snap, snap. You now have an e-copy. No need to upload or transfer anything. And, touch to share can't do that.

...ever heard of that thing, "augmented reality", about barcode scanners, google gooles, things like that? ....No?

I thought so.

So what ppp2!!!! Does every other tablet has synergy, true, i mean true-multitasking, can they stack cards, can it touch to share. So what!!!!! If rear camera is your preference then this is not for you. BECAUSE THIS IS FOR ME!!!!

I agree with him on limited storage but what about lack of wireless connectivity, what the **** does that mean?

Those who analyze market are no different than those who do fortune telling. I mean how can you tell what will happen in the future? The best they can do is look at the trend of previous data and do an educated estimation of the future numbers but that is all if the majority of variables remain the constant.

In this case the biggest variable which is TouchPad is a whole new thing entered into the equation. Therefore there is no possible way to predict how it would pan out.

The reason they say ipad will remain dominant is because it is the safest thing to say. Lets not forget it was the same analysts that said our economy will soon come out of recession not only that didn't happen we are now experiencing a global depression not just a recession.

Moskowitz is a pretty big Apple fan boy. But he seemed bullish in this previous article. http://goo.gl/88LOj

Can someone ban this IP already?

The people who are claiming analysts are either frequently wrong or have no knowledge of the product sound a lot like the same people that attacked the analysts who said the Pre was dead and Palm was close behind.

Sorry, but cannot disagree more:

"This is a device that needs to have the polish that other tablets are lacking, and a matching price to the iPad just to make a statement"

A statement of WHAT exactly, excuse me, of blindness? A statement, that "we too can overprice our product to the sky high"?

But they cannot... Last time I checked, HP's PCs and laptops were less expensive than Apple's. Heck, everyone's hardware was less expensive. And you know what? That hardware was running the most widely spread, and most heavily advertised OS, with godzilla of a company called Microsoft behind it. Having an order of magnitude broader adoption, and software support than Apple has.

Still, they were LESS expensive than Apple's...

So what on Earth made them thinking, that having all odds AGAINST them, they can nonchalantly slap the same ridiculous price tag on them TouchPad? Because it looks cool, and has some (remarkable) advantages as an OS? Have they noticed by chance even more profound DISADVANTAGES it has, as an ecosystem?

To make a STATEMENT??????? Seriously????

LOL. This has all happened before and will happen again. Back in '09 he same discussions were being had about how the Pre should be priced. Should the Pre be priced less than the iPhone?

"Why would we do that when we have a significantly better product?" -Ed Colligan

Looks like Tim wants HP to make the same "statement".

if HP had thought this through a bit more, they should have come out with a tablet priced lower, and offered more. Then they could have advertised on how you get more for less when it doesn't have the Apple logo. But alas...

Amen.

Been computing for many years, since 1968. Been lucky enough to sense some waves and ride the good ones.

The importance of "it feels right" can never be underestimated.

webOS feels right.

And HP has a long history of producing some wonderful hardware. They've got resources, and a culture of iteration. This is not their last tablet. And it's a nice one.

I've learned that when my spidey senses say yep, and a chorus of others say nope, to trust that spidey thing.

So happy to live in a reality that so often surprises and trumps cynical 'geniuses'.

-- stan

What were your spidey senses saying back in 09 when the industry spoke of Palm's demise on the Pre and the chorus of others said nope? How'd that 2% market share feel?

WebOS has been "feeling right". Unfortunately, people buy way more than a UI these days. You buy hardware and an ecosystem of apps and contents to add value to your device.

When HP shows they really have a grasp on those things, the tides will change. They haven't as of yet. This hardware is indistinctive the same way the Asus Transformer is, and they each only have differentiators in expensive accessories. The difference is the $399 asking price which makes people look past Honeycomb shortcoming in the app and ecosystem department. They've sold out almost every run, and are now increasing production unlike a lot of other tablet makers who are reducing.

> profound DISADVANTAGES it has, as an ecosystem?

Actually: given the control/closure elements of the iVerse, vs. the more open elements of the webOS culture, I think webOS has the ecosystem advantage long-term, capable of growing more quickly and attracting my fave sorts of dev minds.

Plus: Enyo is very nice. And once Ares is tweaked to work w/ it, the app. dev. tools become quite attractive to a large group of devs.

-- stan

* unless the HP suits **** up the balance in this regard -- they're fully capable, as the catalog kerfluffle this past week demonstrated.

> profound DISADVANTAGES it has, as an ecosystem?
yes, the whole "ecosystem", consisting of bunch of underselling re-heated phone models, and handful of apps, it seems quite diminutive comparing to any of the competitors, for one, I count it as quite a serious disadvantage.

Enyo might be as nice as you wish. Ares second (as nice and cool as it is, IDE inside the web browser is, hmmm, a gimmick, I'd rather have them spend the same resources polishing Eclipse integration, dont ya?). And WebOsbeing the coolest thing, third. The second quite serious disadvantage is: who cares? I don't give a **** if my developer tools are nicest in the world, and OS they are running on is as sleek as Gulf of Mexico beaches after the oil spill, if there are no users that can buy my app. And there will be none users at that price, if HP keeps it's nose high.

"I think webOS has the ecosystem advantage long-term, capable of growing more quickly"

..."long term", "capable", "potential" - yep it is all there, for some two and a half years now, it just cannot materialize, ad I am soooo full of it...

Meanwhile, Apple HAS all the advantages right now. Android HAS them right now. They are closing functional gaps, slowly,but they are getting there. How you fight them, by pricing your product to match the established market leader?

Apple is not sleeping, google is not sleeping, MS in not sleeping. Every failed WebOS device gives them boost, buys them time to get functionally close to where WebOS is right now, and buys them time to put even more distance in terms of userbase between them and WebOS, harder and harder to close.

I would very much like to be proven wrong, but to me HP is acting as a wounded rhino, making one heavy blind blunder after another.

"Apple is not sleeping, google is not sleeping, MS in not sleeping."

This.

This seudo analyst is thinking for himself and if he retracts every time he can, I won´t take him seriously.

We are concerned with what a Wall Street analyst said? Please. These are the same guys that said that there was no tablet market. Apple proved that there was and now it's a market that will be 100% Apple's.

News flash here. Anyone here can pick stocks for a living. All you have to do is to start with a list of 1000 people and then tell half the stock will go up and the rest it will go down. Once the results are in you repeat the process only with the people who got the correct prediction - the others you dont talk to any longer. Keep repeating this until you are left with a few people who have seen multiple correct predictions and suddenly have buyers.

The bottom line is this lot is as accurate as weather forecasters only they are better paid and have more biases. And few call these guys when they are wrong like they were with the iPad. They don't understand tech and worse they only see tablets as a consumer play because nobody has had a successful go at the corporate market which HP seems to clearly say is what they want to own.

This sounds almost word for word like what the members of Precentral were saying when analyst after analyst was downgrading Palm and said that the Pre was absolutely dead in the market.

"They're just guessing."

"They don't understand the market."

"Palm is flush with cash."

In the end, the analysts were right and the WebOS faithful were critically wrong.

Although these are big general predictions that anyone could have said, there is no denying that the price point is not smart. I was a bit disappointed when the pricing was released for the TouchPad. I was really hoping to to have a WebOS device cheaper than an iPad. The TouchPad is entering a market where the main competition has over a year of maturity in tablets and you want to try to sell them on a rookie device for the same price??? This is the 1st device with WebOS 3 which is completely new and no matter how much HP says it is perfect, it will have a good bit of bugs.

I am currently test driving a friends iPad1 (am posting from it now) to see how I like it. For me, a tablet will be replacing a netbook. I am not a road-warrior so don't need full fledged OS. I just want a device for entertainment and occassional office stuff. The thing is, it needs to do everything my netbook does. For that, you need apps galore. There is no possible way that the TouchPad will have all the apps for the things I use on my netbook at launch (and I would never trust any statements about apps coming soon - they need to be available at purchase time).

I have to say that I am quite impressed with the responsiveness and speed of the iPad1. It will be a tough sell for me to stick with WebOS.

Now the phone is a different story. I don't need a million apps on my phone and absolutely love the WebOS experience enough to stick with it. I am anxiously awaiting a Pre3.

While the market of webOS enthusiasts is ever dwindling, there's still a sizable market of people who refuse to buy Apple products. While many of these people flocked to Android, Windows Mobile or, to a lesser degree, Blackberry for their phones, the tablet market has been a different animal entirely.

There still hasn't been a wildly successful Android tablet. Arguably, most of them have been downright disappointing. Meanwhile RIM is going nowhere with the Playbook and Microsoft's diabolical plan for market domination is to keep peddling the same thing they've been peddling for years, full Windows on a tablet.

If anything, I think webOS has a much better chance of winning over the consumer who refuses to buy Apple products, than the one comparison shopping between the TouchPad and the iPad.

That's the problem though. I'm not convinced the Anything But Apple/Microsoft/Google market is really all that large.

Look at the Precentral forums. Some of these people are rabid about how much they hate Apple/Microsoft/Google. I'm not sure HP can succeed by targeting those 7 people.

Exactly. The reason why the success in the anything-but-iPad market has been moderate thus far is because that market isn't particularly sizable, and it will dwindle as iPad 1 owners sell off at $350 to get an iPad 2, and as iPad 2 owners sell off to get a 3 - and so on.

That grey market of used iPads probably moves more product that any single iPad competitor on any given day.

Keep in mind, those of us who were consumers who refuse to buy Apple products are now forced to include Apple and Android in their shopping comparison because the apps are there, and the functionality is in the apps.

A noob here. what does the lack of wireless connectivity actually mean? Some examples please and thank you.

It means, only wifi versions are available in coming weeks. The cellular data link units will be available in coming weeks after that.

Best to come in $100 lower to start than to have to drop the price a $100 in disgrace and then half price by year's end.

Also, a swamp is an ecosystem as well.

"Also, a swamp is an ecosystem as well."

ROFLMAO Hilarious! The HP SwampThing.

this is a funny situation. why does everyone freak out about what analysts predict? if they didn't say anything, would thing be different? it's called influence. lobbyists, the same concept. these are people riding the wave.

the touchpad is priced the same as the ipad 2. the touchpad accessories are outrageously priced. outrageously. like they build and assemble these things in china for 1/8 of the price. so buy a 32gb touchpad, a case, dock and what are you really looking at? $900? it's not supposed to work that way. you might say that the ipad 2 has similarly priced accessories so that's okay. well, the ipad also has been 1) selling like hot cakes 2) has xx **** apps 3) brand appeal 4) brand awareness 5) cool factor...what else do you need? and in the fall with the release of ios 5, icloud and itunes match, it will add even more to the pot at the same price.

you get a LOT for your money lol. you can't deny that. and we're not even talking about the multitasking, the just type, the stacks, the youtube app that directs you to the web. those are not valuable when you consider what apple is offering now and in the fall. yes, webos may be the superior operating system to all gods and goddesses, but here's the thing. apple and hp have different audiences. apple - consumer, hp - enterprise. enterprises don't care about just type, they want integrated product solutions that work within their existing framework. and considering HP already has contracts with companies concerning servers, printers, computers, it wouldn't be that hard to pitch in a system of touchpads to add to that. yes we have the veer and the pre3, but those are small game. hp is a business company! they will never attain apple status no matter what they do, because they do not excel at speaking to the customer. just look at all their launches, marketing, press--it's all fizzled and spread out. it's nothing special.

they just don't know how to get people excited about products and yes it's always been like that. they build computers and printers, there's not really anything special about those products because they have doing exactly what microsoft and blackberry were doing--capitalizing on the same boring formula that's been working for so long. providing big big companies with their products and then going home. they do not care about creating such a sleek product like the ipad, which was created by designers who care about making products thin and appealing, using high-grade material, utilizing complex manufacturing techniques, and pushing pushing the envelope every single time.

you cannot compare apple to hp or the ipad 2 to the touchpad, it just doesnt have the same audience. all the webos fans will be in line yes, but hp has bigger plans with businesses that will pay the big bucks. consumers, you do not matter much to hp.

we'll see what happens.

The problem that competing tablets have is that Apple is now a status symbol. Like a BMW or a Mercedes. Your cool if you have an "apple" product. My god, people stood in line to get these products. School districts are buying iPads for each kid in the district. That won't be happening with the TP. I hope I'm wrong, but HP is going to be served up a generous portion of humble pie.

umm...this is guy not Jesus. i am going to go with what really works. yes the ipad is pretty but it does not work. it crashes, it has no flash the email sucks, no usb. no real multitasking, no touch to share and no cloud yet. the notifications interrupt me when i am listening to music. the touchpad has everything i need and i WILL be giving my ipad the day of sale

Unless you own the company that is trying to compete with Apple and think HP should undercut the iPad, you really need to ask yourselves if that is a smart business decision. I read this in Forbes magazine back in May.
The Bernstein analysts offers four reasons why Apple can’t be undercut on tablet pricing:

- No pricing umbrella: “Our detailed analysis of Apple’s margin changes over time suggests that iPad gross margins were likely 26% – 30% in the launch quarter; we think they have improved to 32% currently due to falling component prices, which is still 700 bp below Apple’s corporate average. We estimate that entry level iPad gross margins are ~25%.” (In many other Apple products, the company’s fat margins left room for rivals to price lower by accepting lower margins.)
- Scale/component sourcing advantage: He notes that Apple has leveraged its large cash balance by pre-buying components and purchasing manufacturing capacity, giving nit a pricing edge on touch panels and displays. He adds that Apple “likely also obtains superior pricing on NAND flash due to it driving an estimated 20%+ of global NAND flash volume.” He estimates the combination of these factors could provide a 350 basis point advantage across the iPad’s bill of materials.
- Structural distribution advantage: He notes that about a third of Apple’s iPads are sold through its own retail stores and online, where it pays no commission to channel partners.
- Processor design: Apple designs its own A4 processor. Sacconaghi says “such vertical integration might save the company $10 per unit, or about 200 basis points relative to competitors.”

HP has to pay commissions, advertise, buy parts for the touch pad.... Apple has a big advantage over any company trying to compete with them. Undercutting the iPad may be impossible due to the reasons listed. HP might be breaking even for all we know. Let the chips fall where they may. If it is a hit, awesome, it is is not then HP will move on and survive. They are on the right track so far by acquiring its own OS. Quit speculating and support your favorite OS and if you don't like it move on.

Source: http://blogs.forbes.com/ericsavitz/2011/03/02/apple-why-no-tablet-makers...

Well said, nice call-out of a lot of things folks here don't normally consider. And spot on.

I hate to say this but I just made the decision to abandone WebOS. It is not because it is not a good product. There is no better phone OS in existance. However, HP has simply bothched this whole purchase. We should have seen the Pre 3 12 months ago. We should be seeing the tablet 6 months ago. We should be getting the slab WebOS phone right about now. We should be seeing the WebOS equivalent of the Asus Eee Transformer about now also. I don't love Froyo or Gingerbread, but Honeycomb is amazing. It is as good as iOS and darn close to WebOS. I will not be surprised if Ice Cream Sandwich catches the qualit of WebOS. RIM should have bought WebOS and I believe we would have a different ball game. However, it is not what happen. I love my Asus Eee Transformer. I am happy with my Epic 4G. I still take out my falling apart Palm Pre and dream of a Epic like device with WebOS, but it will not happen.

That makes no sense. Pre3 is the third iteration of Pre class as the obvious name reveals. The original Pre came out 2 years ago so technically Pre3 is not even late. Pre2 was late which was because of the purchase of Palm that happened right at the time Pre2 was supposed to be released hence why it got delayed.

What it really comes down to is what are you going to be able to do with this thing at the end of the day.

I could have a gazillion dollar Lamborghini but if I can't actually drive it anywhere near its potential...

It's about the apps... it's always about the apps... show me what this TP can do, not what it can potentially do - I've heard that enough since 2009...

The main problem the Touchpad will have is the lack of success of the Pre. Apple came out with the iPad after the success of the iPhone. People were familiar with iOS and loved. When it came out in tablet form people of course snatched it up. They were use to iOS and knew what to expect.

The Touchpad on the other hand does not have such an advantage. The Pre, although loved by its owners, has not had any success. The average person doesn't even know it exists.

If HP wants the Touchpad to be a success then the Pre will have to be one as well. HP is doing a good job of hyping the Touchpad so far, but they also need to hype the Pre same way when it comes out. If not it's going to be a tough road.

The Pre is definitely loved by the owners that stayed with it. People forget, however, that it actually had a mediocre customer rating on Sprint.com that was far eclipsed by the Evo, Epic, and even the HTC Hero.

i still kinda agree with these analyst

Why:

HP cant accomplish to bring it out World-wide immidiantly, so other countries have to wait even more to get a Touchpad.

People that are unfamiliar with WebOS will buy a ipad or a cheaper Android 3.1 device (Asus Transformer). Because its something they know.

in my opinion HP should made it like 400$ and then cash on some accessoires to make it competitive, Then make the Touchpad 2 (if it ever will come) to a pricepoint of 500$ when you have users. (and when people already have accessoires)

Ofcourse HP also aims on Business (They are HP) but making it cheaper then a ipad also provides more business users.

But yeah im not a financiel guy. But it looks like its going to flop because they are only bringing it to the countries that adopted the "Pre/Plus/2" (which we all know never was a success in the mainstream)

Hi all,

I have been giving this some thought and I came to this conclusion:

The TouchPad and webOS doesn't have to knock the Ipad/iOS or Android pads & phones to be a success....

There are many defiances of both iOS and android if the TouchPad/webOS was on top they could say the same thing about iOS and android trying to muscle into webOS area.

For example:

1.If webOS was on top, analysts could easily say well iOS & Android don't multitask.

2. That Android is a very fractured platform and there are too many Android pads and phones out there it is overwhelming etc..

and on and and on.

People who don't use a specific platform like to pick on things that doesn't mean that webOS/TouchPad will fail.

Take care,

Jay

Hi Jay,

like most of your other spam post, that make absolutely no sense.

Take care,

Susanoo

So true. You can tell he still uses a Centro because his understanding of modern technology is sketchy at best.

wtf?

Well as much as I hate analysts Mark Moskowitz is right about this one.

webOS is great and hopefully the TouchPad is also but with the current price tag this Tablet won't sell. The price of the optional accessories are also not very 'hot'.
Why the 16 GB modell and 32 GB modell are $100 appart can't be explained either. The memory modules are really cheap. You can buy an SDHC card with 32 GB for $50 and the upgrade from 16 GB internal memory to 32 will be even below $25 for HP.

What a potential customer want's is the
TouchPad (32GB with Wifi no 3G=$599) + Touchstone Stand ($80) + Keyboard ($70) and maybe also the case ($50).
That are $800 where you can buy a nice Lenovo X200-Serie ultra portable Thinkpad, which has more power, more storage space and can run the full range of applications available.

In general *all* tablets are overpriced. Normally the tablets have to be in the price range of Atom based subnotebooks which might be as high as $300. For the geek factor I would allow additional $100 to a total of $400 for a Tablet but not a cent more.
So I'm basically down to $599 for a TouchPad + Touchstone Stand + Keyboard + Case.
This I would buy.

The additional 3G feature isn't worth more than $50 (just look how much these modules cost if you want to upgrade you Atom based subnotebook).

Last but not least, why HP didn't a a card reader (SD/micoSD) to the TouchPad? Well at least there is hope that the USB-Port wouldn't be that crippled as on the iPad....

"So I'm basically down to $599 for a TouchPad + Touchstone Stand + Keyboard + Case.
This I would buy."
Would you? Bluetooth Keyboard, how much having HP logo printed on it is worth for you? Touchstone, a coil (or two), embedded in some kind of a stand, $80 - no kidding? And how it differs PRACTICALLY, from any kind of desktop charger, equipped with contact-charging - you need to position your device slightly more carefully in the second case? You have contacts visible on the edge of the tablet? Big deal, I'd have it any day of the week, if it saves me about $60 for a desktop charger. I have touchstone(s, bought on some sale for $5 or something like that) for my Pre-, they are nice, and very cool, but practically, they do not differ from good old desktop charger, not at all - well, at least if you don't factor in that Touchstones are responsible for cooking my Pre's battery twice, when it so happened that I had some "serious" wireless data syncing, while charging on them in the office.

It really is quite a stretch to ask $600 for a tab specified like that, it is silly to ask that much for a tab with vanilla virgin OS, regardless how awesome it is, and I haven't been talking about the accessories prices up to this point, because it really is beyond ridiculous, if you take them into account. And they are merely "nice to haves", not a "must-haves". So no one* will be buying them, again, not for that money.

DISCLAIMER: by "no one", I didn't mean you, nor you, nor even you, dear reader. Just a normal, at least partially conscious, regular shopper, having "some" sum of money to spend on SOME tablet, not neccesarily on "THE tablet"

Mr Polish analyst, i say from the bottom of my hart, you can **** off and play tetris with your analytical **** mind.

wow, there's some real brains behind that post, congrats!

I'll make 5 quick points.

#iPad is the best, the best, the best. Everything else is **** 15 out of 10 times, customers will choose the iPad over the HP TouchPad. If the HP TouchPad was free and the iPad cost 3000, Apple's superiorness would still make it a no-brainer. Let us worship Apple forever, and ever. (Ok, I had to get that out of the way).

# Developers are smart people, and they're quickly catching on to the fact that Synergy on webOS gives their apps direct integration into core OS functions. Apple simply isn't willing to do this in a major way.

#Apple's cloud integration is designed to lock you into their platform as it picks winners with preferred partners; HP's cloud integration via Synergy is neutral and organizations will be able to run full-fledged private app stores inside their secure private cloud environments. Enterprise customers caught onto this immediately and their reaction to the TouchPad is very different from the fanboy reaction.

#In addition thousands of iOS apps exist solely to get around limitations in iOS and iDevices. Yes, some will argue that the native app experience is always better than the browser, but what happens when you create seamless OS-level interfaces with information coming from the web or a private cloud?

#The level of vitriol directed at the HP TouchPad is interesting. It's not out yet. It's so terrible that it won't make a dent on the iPad. HP has said clearly that they're not trying to compete against iPad, just putting out a tablet that works on the problems they figured customers wanted to solve. But still... no fanboy is willing to accept that someone has the right to put something different out there that follows a distinct and open approach to integrating content and OS-level hooks.

I wonder why?

meself personally don't have anything against TP, apart from it being unrealistically overpriced and disappointing from the specs point of view, at the same time. From the consumer market standpoint, this ain't going to fly - and we can meet virtually before Christmas and I will be more than willing to eat my words, if I am wrong. But I am affraid I will not need this.

As for Enterprise sector, I kinda like what I hear from HP, in regard of WebOS potential here/Enterprise integration. Trouble I see is twofold:
- I have hard time trying to justify purchase of TP for the Enterprise customer, tablets seem to me to be very niche products in Enterprise market (I've spent my whole 14 years career working as a developer in Enterprise sector). ESpecially with that pricing, when you can get very good laptop/decent ultraportable, that can do waay more (and don't even need to touch on application support). Much less so for a tablet that is not equipped with main camera (no barcode scanner functionality), nor any kind of NFC/RFID hardware. I just have a very hard time trying to imagine any mainstream Enterprise use cases for it
- In-house applications, developed by enterprise customers for enterprise customers (or for themselves), don't do any good to App Catalog size, even having plenty of developers on board, it will not affect Consumer market too much in terms of app selection coming in with these "parallel-universe" developers. I strongly suspect that HP Dev Relations might be in bed with THAT kind of developers, that's why we don't hear ANYTHING meaningful from them. But that will not bring next Angry Birds inventor to the platform, only some deeply boring enterprise software.

just my $20 in 2c coins, posted here and there.

Don't get me wrong, I'd really want WebOS tablet to succeed, and to get one - just not 10" brick one, and especially, not for the scandalous price that it is offered for, and lastly, not as a dying out consumer platform - I am not buying it to do more work. It is hardly suitable for any serious "work" - apart from some niches, that I believe are there, somewhere.

I don't know what to say, but did anyone with an iota of brain see that HP just sold 100 million webOS devices last week ? Yessss...., in their week long Discover 2011 event. All those 10,000+ registered CEOs, CIOs, CTOs, channel partners, and whoever were there at the event are all going to get TouuchPads & HPwebOS smartphones along with all other machineries that they plan to buy from HP !!! And what a strategic move HP played to sucker them in ? HP has decided to give its own $2+ billions to finance their purchases !!! Just like HP's corporate clients now get desktops and laptops in hordes, they gonna get HPwebOS devices from HP in hordes. It doesn't matter what the employees of those companies use at home, HPwebOS devices (mostly tablets / smartphones) will be shoven down their throats at their work! hee, hee :-) 3 cheers for HP for such a brilliant move. So the TP pricing is not necessarily done with consumers in mind but how much an HP client is willing to pay without blinking ! hee :-) webOS deal is a no-loss deal for HP ;)

can you give us source of that "$2+ billions to finance corporate purhases"??

See, IF that's true, that's exactly what I think they should be doing. PLUS something very similiar on the consumer's end of scale. Like, you know, pricing TP right?

http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2011/06/07/HP-offers-2B-for-c...

You can also see HP's own site. The TPs and HPwebOS smartphones are mobile tools from HP, necessary for instant-on always connected cloud based systems from HP.