The App Space Limit (and What To Do About It) 181
Wed, 07 Oct 2009 5:30 pm EDT 
With more than 100 apps now available for download from the webOS App Catalog and some 200 odd apps from the PreCentral Homebrew Gallery, more and more Pre users are running into a frustrating error: Sorry, Not Enough Memory. “What do you mean, not enough memory?” you promptly asked the phone. “You have 8 GB of storage, I have 50 apps. This doesn't add up.”
You're right, it doesn't add up. There has been a lot of confusion about how this is limited and we’re going to do our best to explain the situation. First off, there is no numerical limit on how many apps you can install, so don’t fret that you’ve hit some magical barrier. The problem comes with how Palm decided to protect applications from copying by end users, and that was to put them in a hidden partition that doesn’t show when you mount the Pre as a USB drive on your computer. The problem with partitions is that they are a set size and difficult to resize, which means that once Palm set the size of the partitions on the Pre, those were the partitions we were stuck with.
We'll take a closer look at the limit and also explain what needs to be done to fix it (hint: you can try to hack it, but what we need is a fix from Palm)
There are three partitions with which you should concern yourself. There is / (root), where webOS itself and Palm’s applications are stored, there’s /media, which is your 6.7 GB of USB-mounted storage space, and there’s /var, where applications are stored. This last partition has an allotment of 253 MB assigned, which can get awfully crowded when you throw in a few dozen apps. Palm has set up webOS in such a way that the magical limit is 90%, where attempting to install an application that crosses that threshold will result in the not enough memory alert. Once you hit that limit, the only way to install a new app is to delete something that you've already downloaded. In the days of 60 MB of storage space on a Treo 755p this was a fact of life, but on a state-of-the-art smartphone with an 8 GB memory chip it's simply unacceptable.
There are a few solutions, but only one of them is pretty. But we’ll look at the not-so-pretty first. The most obvious answer would be to install applications onto the /media partition, since that is the biggest partition on the phone, and you’ll have to put just over 6 GB of apps into it to trigger the alert. Developers, after reading this, are more than likely less than happy with this solution, as it exposes their apps to the prying eyes of competitors and the fickle mouse-clicks of users. A middle ground solution along these lines would be to store the space-hogging parts of the app, such as libraries and image files, on /media while keeping the meat of the app in /var.
The second approach would be more user-initiated, in that the user takes the reigns of the partitions and resized them her/himself. Be forewarned, this is not for the faint of heart, so instead of frightening you with a whole bunch of Linux code (it scares me too), I’m going to point you over to diomark’s excellent tutorial on how to resize the partitions. Here’s our warning: read the instructions first, and if there’s anything you don’t understand, just close the page and walk away.
A third approach would be to simply move the installed apps yourself, as rwhitby explains. Unfortunately, bugs may result from this as well. Lastly, the webOS Internals crew has worked out a method that creates a hidden directory within the /media partition and redirects /var to this new directory. Not only does it save /var from getting over-crowded, but it also allows you to utilize the much larger /media space for app installations. Unfortunately, while this will move your App Catalog apps over to the new directory when it is created, the App Catalog will continue to install apps into /var. Again, like the partition resizing mentioned above, this is not for the technically-challenged, but webOS Internals has some fairly in-depth instructions on how to get it all done.
None of these solutions are elegant or easy as we expect webOS to be. The folks over at webOS Internals are working on building a virtual file system that will allow you to create a new /var “virtual partition” as large as you want, but its still a work in progress.
The best solution will have to come from Palm, and that’s to set up webOS and the file system in such a way that the partitions are not static and can be dynamically resized to accommodate more or fewer apps. There’s little reason for the partition where the OS is installed to have gobs of extra space, and there’s no reason that we shouldn’t be able to use all other available space for apps and/or media. The only reason we have is that we can’t.
So a note to Palm: if you want webOS to be truly successful, you have to continue your embrace of third-party app developers. But they, and your users, are going to become increasingly frustrated so long as they are limited in how many apps they can install. More importantly to the developers, if the user has no more space, they won’t be downloading those revenue-generating paid apps that just came out.
In short, this app space limit was a 'small complain' at first, but now it's a big deal. It's pretty much unacceptable. Getting this fixed should be a priority; it is more important than beefing up the calendar or improving battery life or re-hacking iTunes sync. Developers and users are what will make or break webOS, and if they are saddled with this silly limitation for much longer, you’re going to have a revolt on your hands.
181 Comments
I don't understand why Palm doesn't give users more controls over the partition sizes, or makes them dynamic - it seems like it'd be a fairly simple proposition to me. Until they do that, it doesn't matter how nice the App Store or any apps, paid or free, are.
P.S. First!!
A little disappointing this method hasn't been mentioned, which works...
http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Solution_to_App_Catalog_Installation...
Yeah, that method is obviously the best we have at the moment, I'm not sure why Derek left it out (although Derek is admittedly less hack-savvy than Jason, Keith, and Dieter, so he just might not have known about it.). Derek, if you're reading this, PLEASE add this method, it's the best homebrew method we have, because it is the only sustainable one that stands the least chance of breaking anything.
Glad to see that this method has already been thought of. When I started reading Derek's article I thought; "Why not just create a hidden directory on /media, copy the data over from /var and create a symlink to your new directory?"
I guess great minds think alike!
Now to get Derek to revise his article...
Someone better light a fire under Palms butt, Sprint is about to release a flood of new devices, take a look at this one: http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=4953
"A flood" huh... There are only two devices that would even compete with the Palm Pre: The Hero and this latest Android device. Ultimately, it's still Android which is not nearly as sophisticated or intuitive as WebOS, but what is? And regardless the Palm Pre is still Sprint's flagship until Verizon picks it up next year (allegedly).
The more informed among us may realize this. However, the casual customer may not be able to discern the difference between webOS and the Sense UI on the HTC Hero (and other devices).
But the casual consumer has to get the phone first before you can discern that difference! People have the Pre, they don't have the Hero yet. People know how sophisticated yet still user friendly the Pre is. I mean why do you think iPhoners aren't giving up their iPhones for the Pre, bc they don't know anything about the Pre.
or they know everything about the pre and decides to stay with their iPhone!
I did. No more 3GS for me.
why download a patch when all u have to do is use preware its the only file installer software that never gives me that problem and has many options that i feel comfortable and happy to be using my pre. you dont have to do all of the geek work unless you enjoy it but preware works perfectly fine for my cell give it a try first be4 attempting to do extra work
Thank you for bringing more attention to this issue!
Very true! I hate that message telling me I have to remove apps. Just plain STUPID!!!
Agreed !! It is this HUGE problem and the fact this phone does not do video at all !! That has me on the verge of buying the all new Sprint HTC Hero this coming Sunday !!! More than Likely this will be exactly what I do, just tired phones that come out always missing something
The HTC Hero is missing the keyboard for farks sake. What good is video on a device primarily used for communication when you can't even type without jabbing at a touch screen?
Every three months Sprint releases a new HTC phone that's gonna take over the world. When it comes out, it does two or three things really well, and outstinks New Jersey with a half dozen key weaknesses and failures. I'm not sold, Hero will be a half baked also ran like Instinct, Treo Pro, and all the others that are in the market place, without actually being in the street.
So, pay your exit fee, go get your Hero, and get back to us. When you prefer a phone that doesn't exist over a phone that's starting to build up speed, you must be the district sales rep for HTC.
the HTC hero is doing really well in europe, so in that respect, you are incorrect. this is a tested unit, with an established user base as well as a large user initiated development group. so get your facts straight before you make your uninformed remarks. i love my palm pre, but in terms of functionality and customization, it is lagging.
The fact I was pressing was that other HTC phones have come and gone, without capturing the imagination of may Sprint users. We have this half dozen Hero-groupies ready to eat 20 month's of a Sprint contract, for a phone that was announced before they signed in ink for the Pre. So, go for it guys. Poop or wipe.
Android is a proven platform, don't get me wrong, I want webOS to succeed. However, Palm needed to hit the ground running, this memory issue is blowing up. Palms app-catalog is starting to fill up with redundant apps just like Apples app store. Androids market has many functional apps. I posted a link about of another Sprint device running Android.
Palm pretty much has to be cooperating with Sprint to get the Phones sold at 0-150 bucks. It's clear they hope make some money on app sales and creating a new happy core of customers. This problem will go away within a week or two. It's a self punishing crime.
Thank you for this. Palm needs to wake up and get this done yesterday!
It was my understanding that the app catalog is tied to your palm id, and as a result you could add and remove apps, both paid and free, from the device and redownload them whenever you like, without having to purchase them again. If that is the case, then, while the space limitation IS an issue, this mitigates the issue in my mind since I dont consistently use more than a handful of apps. Im not saying they shouldnt address this, since when it happens it is a pain, but as long as I can remove and add them at will without having to repurchase them, I am more then willing to give Palm the time to address more critical areas than this one.
Hi,
While I agree that having apps tied to your profile is a plus, it still kills the idea of having the power of WebOS in the palm of my hand.
I use my pre to find things quickly. When I want to get the weather, i feel i should be able to do that in the time it takes to get me to the door. Not in the time it takes to open the App Catalog, delete an app, reinstall Accuweather, reload my preferences, then find the weather.
I'm already getting rained on.
In my mind, this is the one thing that makes me want to return to stodgy old Windows Mobile. I had about 1MB of programs I kept on my memory card always installed at a moments notice and another 600kb of programs I'd downloaded and kept on hand for that just in case.
I am glad my calendar is faster (i can acutlaly USE it now YAY!) but I actually see some apps that I want to spend $$$ on and can't see deleting what i already have to do it...
I agree with biggnaa20!
I am another who only uses a few apps. I just want to mention that you can check the weather on the web @ weatherchannel.com, which you could put on your launcher w/out eating up app space.
your comment reads a little foolish IMO, who in their right mind wants to keep deleting and redownloading apps whenever they need to use them or to make room. That's too time consuming
Unless (or until) the Palm Profile stores app settings, you would have to reconfigure each app every time you redownloaded it. Who wants to go through all of that? Also, what about non-setting data (tweets, messages, saved games, etc.)?
Very good article. Good read.
Partitions are partitions. The reason resizing them is painful is because it's not supposed to happen on a disk you'd don't plan on reformatting. So this "dynamic partitions" idea is a non-starter.
In theory Palm could stick with the root partition and make a second with the remaining space. Then create the /var and /media directories within the mountpoint. That would mean that the user-accessible disk would be somewhere around 7GB and if you run out of space you either delete stuff from /media OR /var.
If I had a spare Pre I'd be willing to try that fix.
This is the best solution I've heard so far, but you run up against the problem that /media/internal needs to be fat32 and /var needs to be ext3.
Unless there is a better solution, it seems this could be solved by creating a virtual fat32 filesystem on top of the ext3 partition using a filesystem driver written in userspace with FUSE. That way it would behave exactly as it does now, but with no limitation.
Available space for multimedia/whatnot should definitely be shared with applications.
Ew, yeah, that does make things more complicated.
The FUSE idea seems to make the most sense. Are you sure /var MUST be ext3, or could it be possible to use EncFS instead? That would eliminate the risk of someone snooping around on /media/internal to see what's being stored in /var.
You can resize partitions on a mac on the fly without issues - so long as you use a GUID partition table.
simple question. How are other platforms handling this??? Maybe not so simple of a question but that's the FIRST question many will ask!
any answers?
Previous incarnations of Windows Mobile allowed almost all of your programs to be installed on an external memory card, but there were some programs that didn't react well to that and needed to be placed on internal memory for stabiltyand usability.
The new Windows Mobile App Store seems to force installation to the internal memory, but I don't know if there is a partition as most of the Winmo devices don't have expansive internal storage.
I certainly don't need 6GB for music, I have an iPod for that. I've put about all the music I'm going to need on my Pre and it only took up a little over 1GB.
Palm, please open this up so that I can use my device for what I need to use it for!
funny. one of the aims when i got my pre was to not need an ipod. Now seems like with the crappy installed player that's a fail and in terms of apps it's so far a fail. Hope they solve both because the fruit phone's looking better and better from the music and apps perspective.
Thanks for putting this article together. Good information.
Here is what I don't understand though...I get the Out of Memory error trying to install new apps using the App Catalog. My /var partition though is only at 57% used...seems like there should be plenty of space for additional apps. Anyone else running into a problem like this?
How can you see how much you have in /var?
You need to access linux and then run "df" from the command line.
I actually think his 90% magic number is wrong.
/var has not only app installations, but app data
so it needs a lot more than 10% headroom to function properly.
I saw elsewhere that 60% is the limit that app catalog looks for.
I don't believe I am really out of memory either. I can try and download an app, get the out of memory message, delete an app and try and download the same app and get the out of memory message. So that doesn't make sense. I deleted an app and couldn't re download it in filecoaster because of the memory. Then I went to Preware and downloaded the same file and it downloaded and installed. So I was able to download it but just using Preware. So I really had the memory for it. So I think something is telling the App catalog and filecoaster that there is not enough memory because I can download it in Preware. Anybody else have this experience? I'm not a programmer but I think 1.2 is having a problem reporting the wrong amount of memory to different downloaders. Check it out....
I am having the same problem, but my error is not the screenshot above. When I try to download or update an app from filecoaster the box at the bottom of the screen says, "Install failed- not enough install..." I just downloaded the same thing using preware and it worked and I also just installed 4 more apps using preware and it worked so I don't think it is a memory issue either. Has there been anything reported with something being wrong with filecoaster? I even tried to remove it and install again and it still does not work.
I would also like to add my thanks for your post. And I would recomend people concerned with this issue take it to Palm directly. As someone (sorry) posted on the forums, you can leave them a suggestion at http://www.palm.com/us/company/feedback.html which is Palm's feedback page. Be polite now.
I concur with this - and submitted mine yesterday. If each of us does this, the message to Palm will be clearer (if it isn't already). If it is clear to them, it will highlight the urgency.
And if one from each of us isn't enough, then we can submit feedback every week ... or even daily ... until they get it.
I agree with the article - it wasn't the main issue in the past, but with the apps catalog opening up and paid apps coming on line, it's past time to address this. I expected this to be addressed at the same time as the apps catalog because they are linked.
I submitted my own suggestion today. Definitely increasing the size. But maybe implementing it so that a user can choose from 2 or 3 preset sizes that after being selected would prompt a restart, where the partitions would be reallocated... Just a thought.
This was an incredibly stupid decision by Palm. Especially given the number of pre-installed and non-removable apps like Nascar for example.
My wifes 8g iPhone 3g must have 30 apps on it now with no memory issues raised.
I have not had any app space issues on my Pre, but that's partially because of the limited number of apps available for the phone. I expect that as the catalog grows so will the number of apps on my phone.
In a somewhat related vein, an error I do get periodically is a 'too many open cards' error when I try to open an app. I have gotten this message multiple times when I have only had 2 cards open and am trying to open a 3rd.
Palm needs to reconsider how the device allocates memory.
The built-in non-removable apps are stored in the root partition (/) rather than /var, so luckily they are not taking up our valuable app storage space.
I didn't all of that yesterday and everything looks identical but still have the Memory error.
Yes, it's about time for addressing this.
The funny thing is that although some repositories won't allow me to download anymore apps due to space issues, when i use another repo it allows me. I've had to go back and forth with this just to get a freaking download. (i think it has to do with the way some repo allows you to down load (root or no-root).
I have brought this issue to Palm in several different ways. I think everyone here should bombard them with this issue. Cause if this is not paid attention to.... The Pre will be a big fuggin EPIC FAIL. Rediculous that we are limited to the amount of apps due to a partition. What do they care how many apps we have and how much space they take up. I don't use my phone for music or movies. So I have plenty of space to take up with apps. IF they don't address this issue in the next month..... Palm you will have failed me and I'm sure many others.... I will be selling this and getting something else. Possibly the Hero. Get on it Palm!
I get they are wanting to shield dev's code from people but what about some fancy permission work and what's served up as viewable via usb. To me this would sound to hard with linux's permission setting and the ability to easily code in the ability to block visability of /bar .. Not sure what they are using to serv the partition up via usb but I bet it is a palm creation.
chmod 660
Who ever thought that 253MB partition would be enough for apps? What happens when Tiger Woods golf comes out for the Pre? Or any other game that is actually up to date with the technology built into the Pre? None of the apps now take anywhere near the full advantage of the hardware. This is a serious limitation that is going to hamstring future apps from being developed for the Pre, IMO.
Yeah, this is the thing that threw me. I mean, I can sort of understand why Palm would want to handle its apps in a semi-hidden directory. Or why they might be skittish regarding allowing end-users to easily repartition their own phones. Or why they wanted to offer large media memory.
But the fact that more than one person at Palm (one might even say all of them) agreed that 253MB would be enough for all apps ... really? Have they not been paying attention to the iPhone app store? Did they think that Sprint users were going to reach their limit and say, "Oh, well. Guess that's it"? It's weird. People are calling it idiotic. I don't know. But it's weird.
dear palm, htc hero looks like a good phone. don't make me jump ship.
Thank you for bringing this up. I was confused how I was out of memory with less than 40 apps.
I was holding out on hope that WebOS 1.2.1 would fix this issue but when I found that it didn't I was upset. I mean this is not some enhancement issue this is a serious problem that needs addressing ASAP!
Though there have been some minor issues, as a user, this is by far my biggest complaint w/the Pre. I love so much about this phone, yet I currently have 6G usable space left and can't add an App. Ridiculous, IMO. There are other Apps I am waiting for--like SlingBox Mobile. We need more space available in this partition.
Very well done Derek!
The gang at Precentral have done a fabulous job of keeping up with the current tidal wave of new Pre/Pixi/webOS info!
Also supporting the Homebrew and developer communities in amazing ways.
Just want to thank you for the awesome job you are doing!
I don't understand the first option:
"The most obvious answer would be to install applications onto the /media partition, since that is the biggest partition on the phone, and you
Exactly. Anyone who could benefit from seeing into the /var partition would know how to get there anyway.
But, this makes me wonder: I'm thinking about getting an unlocked GSM Pre [for travel outside the USA] when it comes out [I'm on Sprint and staying there].
re
"The problem comes with how Palm decided to protect applications from copying by end users, and that was to put them in a hidden partition that doesn
AH! I was worried I was the only one exp this, though I figured apps had to be in a separate partition. This completely fail, if Palm wants the App Catalog to succeed this must be fixed.
hi
well i called palm last week to complain and see if there was a solution to this. At first he was like no there is nothing that can be done. I explained to him that this is like buying a car that only holds a gallon of gas. We need more room for more apps and that the app store would be pointless because there would be no reason for anyopne to purchase anything if there were no room. He then said that they will most likely address this in webos1.3 But that he cannot say anything else on the matter. So i asked him again it will come out in 1.3 and he said im not allowed to confirm that. I asked him when it will be released and he said i cant release that info. I then asked him so palm is aware of this problem and they are working to correct it right? He said yes sir. I they said good day and hung up.
looks like to me palm will make a fix for this and soon. this maybe why we wont see a huge flood of apps til they fix this. what do you guys think
I am increasingly getting the feeling that Palms silence on this issue means their fix to the problem will the Pixi and other future devices.
Or, hopefully, if you ever have to run webOS Doctor.
The timing of a fix release may well coincide with the release of the Pixi, but this issue is not due to any hardware limitations; I can therefore think of no reason that it would not be available to Pre owners in the future.
Definitely a pain! Unless there's good reason _not_ to use LVM, I'd say Palm needs to address this. UBIFS certainly looks like a good option. I wonder why they're not using it??
Customer's should be deciding the mix of applications and music, not them!
This isn't server-class hardware. LVM is way too bulky for this kind of device and not something you'd expect to need for every user.
Granted it would have helped this current problem but this was probably a decision made well before anyone had a clue that 250 megs wasn't enough memory for /var.
EDIT: I stand corrected. According to the webos-internals wiki, these partitions are using LVM. Interesting. That does make the job of fixing the problem that much easier.
Yea PLAM, Get her done!
There's a typo in the 4th paragraph where you mention something about 6 GB. You put, "...there's /media, which is you 6.7 GB..." and I think it should read, "...there's /media, which is YOUR 6.7 GB..." Haha. =)
This isn't good, Sprint is launching a very hot phone this weekend, Palm should have at least said they were working on a fix. For Palm to just sit still on this, makes it seem as though they're hoping it will pass over. A rep from Sprint demoed the Hero at my company on Monday, I have to say, it is an awesome device. I really like my Pre, simple things like this makes one wonder how will Palm respond when a problem is much more complex.
The time Palm wastes on screwing with Apple on Media Sync could've have this failure resolved.
However think the other way. Any increase of app storage will mean increase of storage size they have to do with the backup server?
Either way venting your frustration here wont help a whole lot. Call them, post on their forms, email them, or whatever means to contact them and let them know you want this more than anything in the works!
Palm/Sprint officials read these blogs, this is the perfect avenue to address an issue.
This is a much much bigger problem than media sync, which probably took them all of 10 minutes to fix.
Agreed that Palm's the only one who can fix this. But hopefully everyone has some patience. It's no small thing to ask them to offer the end user a way to adjust this.
They advertise a certain amount of free space for users. Perhaps when that message comes up they could offer a prompt "Free space for applications has been reached. Would you like to allocate some space from your media storage for applications?"
I dunno... Good luck, Palm.
Oh, and incidentally, they'd also be more inclined to find a way to protect the data on the media drive during repartitioning. Tricky stuff.
Using Preware seems to let me bypass the limit somehow for as many homebrew apps as I want. Any ideas as to why? The limit restriction still exists on apps from the palm catalog however there is no limit when installing homebrew apps using preware.
Yeah, what is going on that preware can installl apps but the app catalog cannot?
preware install apps into a different directory than the other apps. possibly on a different partition.
preware installs apps into a different directory than the other apps. possibly on a different partition.
Agreed, ever since I've been using Preware I've never encountered the app limit error, whereas I used to get it when installing via App Catalog, FileCoaster, or PreLoad. I'm not sure of the mechanics involved, but I think it's related to the WebOSInternals (http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Solution_to_App_Catalog_Installation...) posted earlier in this thread.
Anyone know exactly how Preware is able to overcome the size limitation?
I wanna know how do you back up your preware apps so you don't have to install them all over again when a new update come "breezing" by...
:-)
I made the same point during the Palm-cast last night - that Preware installs to a different directory - and was incorrect, it seems.
Jason responded that Preware does in fact install to the same directory, but bypasses Palm's install script - used by the app catalog - thereby getting around the app limit by "spoofing" the count.
At least that's my fairly non-technical recollection of the discussion (I'm more of a producer than a developer).
So, can someone with some better Linux chops than me explain whether or not we can just create a link to a space on the media partition? I mean, that seems really rather simple, just create a hidden folder, /media/.var/ and then copy all the contents of /var to that folder, then link /var to /media/.var? I could be dead wrong with that, but it makes sense to me.
It can be done with links...
http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Solution_to_App_Catalog_Installation...
Not sure how Derek missed this. Many are doing it.
I think we can do this using symlinks to redirect things from /var to /media/.var
Wow! Very nicely put. I am sure our PreCentral devs will have a working solution long before Palm even begins to address the problem.
I am assuming we are executing the files on the basic user level. This requires read access for everyone, which means the user needs read access but that cannot be available when plugged in. Having partitions for the apps is obviously stupid. I would not put too much stock in "dynamic partitions."
I think the best answer would probably be to have a file execution user level, this would be invoked via an init script. Very similar to the way Ubuntu init's Apache under user Apache. Then make /var that is now on the main partition, only readable by the "application" user that executes files.
Agreed... REVOLT!
NEED MORE SPACE!
You guys are useing 50apps? Thats nuts. I only use a few everyday. I have no problem clicking download if i need a different app for a while. I just dont see a reason for someone to have all these apps at the same time. I understand you guys saying its dum of palm to limit it but even if they had a 100app limit you guys would be complaining. You arent really useing 50apps. I bet some of the apps on your phone have only been opened once.
When flash apps come out, we'll be reduced to only able to install 10 apps and dont get me started when that webGL is a go. Apps are only going to get bigger as new APIs and ideas are released.
I went ahead and turned in an 'idea request' at Palm's feedback page. Can't hurt! I would almost HAVE to think this is being addressed. Palm just cannot be that oblivious to users' needs. Right? Right?? Well, I hope not, anyway.
/Kevin
Developers, after reading this, are more than likely less than happy with this solution, as it exposes their apps to the prying eyes of competitors and the fickle mouse-clicks of users.
makes little sense in terms of storing apps on /media/internal
#1 competitors can easily view apps stored anywhere
#2 while I do agree that it can be impacted by users clicking things (i.e. will appear visible when on computer when plugged in via usb mode), I'm not sure this is really the biggest deal in the world, on windows mobile you can do it and accidentaly delete a file and kill the app.
#3 the biggest deal is in reality that /media/internal is probably taken offline from the pre while in media sync or usb mode, which would make the apps unavailable.
I'm not sure if this is a really big deal or not, but not a good way to solve if one ants to maintain fat fs compatibility (as opposed to using a sync protocol like microsoft does to view the fs).
Even if we created some sort of a hack that let you resize your partitions dynamically using a slider bar (more space for appsmore space for music/pictures) it still wouldn't fix the busted install methods.
I think that would be a pretty bad for stability.
No argument here. I'm just saying this as it's been suggested in some of the forums as a potential workaround. I don't think this is the right solution, I'm just suggesting that file system reswizzling alone isnt going to solve this.
Palm needs to fix their buggy code as well.
DUP, please ignore
I manually resized my / and /var by 512M each using LVM, I have MORE then enough room in those FS's to support the installation of apps... but I'm still getting the error. It's an issue with the install assistants doing a busted space check before download, and another before install. /usr/palm/applications/com.palm.app.findapps/app/catalogu/details-assistant.js uses a function called _validateInstallSpace that is -incorrectly- determining my / and /var are out of space. And that is just for the download of the app, not even the install. if i force a callback(true) in there it will download, but not install. I can then catch the downloaded .ipk file and manually install it, and all works well... but the automated nifty installer is still broken. And anyone without experience with lvm, chmod, vi, and other unix admin knowledge is SOL.
Yes the file systems need to be rethought, but PALM clearly needs to rework the entire app installation system as well.
Even if we created some sort of a hack that let you resize your partitions dynamically using a slider bar (more space for appsmore space for music/pictures) it still wouldn't fix the busted install methods. There's no way my 32% full var and / should be "out of memory".
OH, and BTW - this is why preware doesnt have this size limitation, they dont use palm's install methods that perform a faulty check. Space -can- be an issue for some people, but this BUG is a problem for everyone. (except preware).
Palm, please fix.
Well it seems Palm doesn't want you to download homebrew apps so they could make money off their apps in the cat. It's kind of ironic cuz they're losing money (maybe just from me who knows) because when I get that error I just wont pay for that app I'd rather keep my homebrew apps than delete and pay for a palm app so thus there not getting my money because of this now if and when palm realizes this they will make it work THEN and ONLY then will I buy apps
app cat.=100 apps Homebrew app= over 200!
There was a reason Microsoft ditch the variable partition. It was a very sweet idea but lead to too much stability problems when all the sudden one partition is out of memory via adjustments. It could be coded to adjust up to a variable point to always leave x amount free space but I just having a hard time seing this reality.
Lets not use "microsoft" and "stability" in the same sentence, shall we? the reason UNIX splits file systems is for MORE stability, not less. The tradeoff here is stability for ease-of-use. UNIX has never been the easiest thing to use, but please don't suggest it's less stable then anything microsoft has ever invented.
Thanks Derek!!!!!!!!!!!
Thought I was going crazy!!!! This is very frustrating at ever step of the way...I'm totally feeling like giving up on my Pre!!! Not only am I having roaming issues like I've never had before with previous palm phones but now apps won't work properly and I can't get updates...
Sad Palm! Really SAD!!!!
should have just increased this to the full size and givne us a microsd slot to use for media. then we could throw in 16gb no problem and not have had this issue.
I'm with you Johyah!!!!!!! Why didn't they give us micro sd slots to begin with?? I also hate the fact I can't control what I want to back up interms of apps. There have been apps that I have deleted that I got from the app store. After deletion I backed up and then reset my Pre so I can reconfig for new webos 1.2.1 and webos quick instal 2.7...all those apps I deleted came back to haunt me.
I just wanted to add to the complaint list. I don't have room to install any paid apps. All the apps have either a use or information I do not wish to dump by unstalling. I was browsing the paid app catelog the other night and found some I would have purchased but its simply not worth it to me to pay AND delete something I want. Paying is one thing but taking away and paying is just too much.
Oh well.
Rob
I'm in the exact same boat, and couldn't have said it any better :)
- The complexity of the issues worries me that the fix isn't going to come at least not fast from palm (if at all).
- And now that it is a bigger issue I think it could potentially affect the sales of Pre's in general (especially as the blog world catches onto it).
Well, as someone else has already mentioned, Paid Apps are tied to user ID: Pay Once. Delete. Re-download for free. You won't actually lose your paid apps or have to pay again (though you might not be able to use them when you want due to install "throttles").
That being said, I agree - why limit app installs at all? (Apart from actual, physical storage limits).
Now that paid apps are up and running, for the most part, if I want to download 1000 identical $0.99 fart apps - then let me, for Christ's sake! Happier consumers. Happier developers. More money all around.
I'm not in the least bit suggesting that we need 1000 fart apps - or even one (though GasPasser did make my 4-year-old chuckle). But it's insanity to throttle the commercial ecosystem!
------------------------
Edit: After the fact I realized that I had misread your post (not really about limits, but uninstalling free apps - and losing data - to acquire paid ones). Apologies.
I don't remember hearing issues about exposed source code on PalmOS.
...thirdly...what if we have to update existing apps and the updates take up more room????? Friggin' Palm!!! The Frack with it!!!!!
This is simple logic!
I will NOT purchase new apps if there's no space on my phone. If Palm continue to lose money, they'll go out of business.
If Palm was to go out of business, we, the consumers, will just buy a new phone and not lose any sleep over it. So;
Listen to the consumers
Listen to the consumers
Listen to the consumers
Listen to the consumers
Listen to the consumers
Listen to the consumers
Listen to the consumers...trust me!!!
that confirms to me, that the pre is still a BETA PHONE!
After reading this, I felt the need to send something off to Palm via the feedback page. I thought others might be interested in what I wrote... and besides, it allows me to update my blog, which I do far too infrequently! It's the most recent post here: http://www.zammetti.com/blog
Good Blog post and a big thumbs up behind your notions... Thanks, Sorli...
"Palm has followed the Apple model by, conceptually at least, mimicking the
Psst, Derek! " . . . take the reins . . . "
I'd like to hear what the Palm Borg Queen ("bing...bing...bing", "Like deja vu", "My phone can read my mind") says about repartitioning her phone. It seems that the phone she has shouldn't need this kind of ridiculous tweaking. It sounds like Palm should have give more thought to this and less to making the phone the shape of a river rock with a handy mirror.
They will release a newer palm pre with all the fixes and charge us more ...just like they did with the 2nd & 3rd generation iPhones....you just wait and see...
which is like giving Pre owners the finger. I'm not beholden to Palm. That would drive me and a lot of users to another phone.
ok here's my question.......if you have to delete an app you paid for to make room for another app, what happens if you want to reinstall it? do you have to buy it again? if so then they should issue refunds because i don't think it's fair to charge people for apps and not have alot of space to store them...
The thought probably "never" occurred to them!!!!
The app is tied to your palm account. Therefore, you can add and delete as much as you want. Also, if you bought another webOS phone like the pixi you could download the apps to that phone two. At least that is how I understand it.
Has anyone actually tried this and verified it works correctly?
Thanks for the article! Hopefully this will wake somebody up at Palm!!
i submitted my request to Palm today at Palm's feedback page. I encourage everyone to do the same.
When I was in the military my Sergeant Major summed it up in one sentence, "It only takes one 'Ah Sh*t' to wipe out all the 'Atta boys'." It seems to me that this is a MAJOR "Ah Sh*t"!!!
So we ask you palm, do you want WebOS to be a success??? I didn't buy a smartphone to use as an MP3 player. I wanted a smartphone to use as a "smartphone". If I wanted it to listen to music I would have bought one of the many phones or MP3 players capable of this (and with memory card options no less).
P.S. I too will not purchase a paid app just to have to delete a free app that I am currently using and lose all my settings and info for that app.
When I get this message I simply turn OFF my PRE and turn it back ON. So far it has worked every time! My guess is one of the apps I have used is hogging memory and not released it when closed!
Leland Cox
I'd love to see a video of this being fixed by a reboot... this has nothing to do with active memory, it's a filespace and installer issue.
I've sent an email in to Palm on this. I'm at 7 users who have emailed me, posted in the forums, or in comments and said that they will purchase my app when they can install it. The thing I wonder is how many people that is true for, but don't bother stating it.
Just think about all the people that don't know about PreCentral or Homebrew apps that have no "voice" to be counted.
This is about 90% of why I switched from the G1 and paid an ETF to get the Pre.
Ok, so we have code and solutions to this.. Who's writing the patch for it now? Should be too difficult to create a patch script to accomplish now, right?
"Who's writing the patch for it now?"
PALM should do it.
YES. This is much too important and significant and affects too many users (everybody, that is) to go without an OFFICIAL fix any longer, and frankly, it was a downright silly design decision from the beginning.
Tolerable, perhaps, prior to the release of WebOS 1.2 and Paid Apps -- but now that we've crossed that bridge and the problem hasn't been solved, we're on a whole new level of "ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME" that ought to be addressed as a critical priority by these devices' manufacturer.
i had this problem with 20 apps
I've designed my fair share of systems in my time, and I'd have to say that's a pretty hacky way to do copy protection. Hidden partitions just screamed trouble at me.
It's better just to do simple web based activation. People are used to doing things that way. You're already connected, so it takes almost no effort to activate an application that way. Yeah, it can be hacked, but it's a pain for most people to bother hacking an app when all you have to do is pay a few bucks. You'd probably have to drop the phone into dev mode and install it with quick install or something, and most people aren't going to risk getting their phone fouled up and have to restore it with the doctor...if they can even figure it out and get someone to help them with it.
There are already plenty of hardware numbers in the phone's profile that you can tie a reg code to, to prevent a hack that lets you push apps with wifi or bluetooth or over a network. There's just no reason to lock apps down into hidden partitions. No one does that for a reason...it just doesn't make any sense. It's WAY overboard.
Yes!
Especially given a device that is perforce always on. All Pre's require unlimited data plans; no activation/data usage issues.
Great job, Derek! Very well said. Thanks!
This is unacceptable. Period. If Palm wants to compete in this app-full world, this must be eliminated, and i mean yesterday. I came across this issue a few days ago, I thought it was a problem with just my pre. I chatted with one of Palm's support people online, and he said to me that there was no limit on the amount of apps one could install. He simply had me do a hard reset and said that it would work properly after that. Obviously, it did not.
This is a HUGE HUGE HUGE negative for the Palm Pre. I can't even begin to understand how Palm let this occur. It makes me VERY unsatisfied.
Fix this Palm, yesterday.
Friggin' frack!!!!!!!!!!
Palm really needs to fix this in a hurry or else they'll have a lot of angry customers. They need to give us the freedom to do whatever we want with the Pre if its downloading tons of Apps until your memory capacity reaches zero. I'm going to make a complaint to PALM and to all of the other resources and tell them that they need to fix this crap. This is so stupid.
If Palm really did hired former Apple employees....than we got the ones that rode the short bus to work!
I agree that Palm really missed the boat on this issue, but let's not forget all the GOOD things they've done -- like, *ahem*, given us the Palm Pre and WebOS to begin with! I don't think it's fair to fire crude insults their way despite this obvious flaw in the operating system's design.
There was an easy solution to this during development, don't cheap out on the memory and put 16GB or 32GB into the device. Or, my personal preference, expandable memory. 8GB is unacceptable these days.
I want Palm to fix this crap.
Thanks, guys, for drawing attention to this serious issue on the most widely-read (and BEST!) WebOS blog community in the world.
Now hopefully we can get an equally appropriate response (read: solution) from Palm.
Edit: I want to add a virtual "High-Five!" in here for Derek Kessler for his bold editorial on this issue.
Nicely said note to palm, hopefully they listen
The solution to get Palm to issue the solution is simple and elegant:
BOYCOTT THE PURCHASE OF APPS UNTIL PALM FIXES THIS.
I for one feel misled. I purchased the Pre as a loyal Palm user in anticipation of the ability to have many many apps like the iphone. I am willing to pay for them. I understood I had an 8 GB limit. I DO NOT recall the fine print. My kids, iphone/itouch users, laugh atme when they look at my apps and continue to attempt to get me to join the Dark Side...
I have assumed that once the paid apps came through this would be fixed by Palm in an update. I based that assumption on a combination of reading PreCentral and nothing but wishful thinking.
I for one refuse to Buy apps until this is fixed. If we all stop buying apps, the app developers will be forced to make Palm deal with this quickly.
THAT is the solution....
Also, it's not that much of a sacrifice for those of us who have already reached our memory limit. I couldn't download an app from Palm if I wanted to.
I didn't spend $549 for a phone to be limited on the amount of apps I can install! I only have 30 apps installed and am getting the memory limit. So what if I don't use them all the time, it's my phone with my hard earned money. I will not purchase one paid app until this limit is taken off.