App submissions update has unintended consequence of locking out older phones on 2.1 71
Wed, 08 Jun 2011 10:13 am EDT 
You might recall several days back when HP announced an update to their app submission process. Instead of requiring developers to select the individual devices their app would support, they would now select parameters (minimum OS version, supported resolution, etc) that would be used to ensure the apps are made available in the App Catalog to compatible devices. Essentially, it moved the device selection process to the server side, where HP’s servers look at the parameters and determine which devices should be allowed to see which apps.
There’s a problem, though: it seems that HP’s servers don’t recognize that some older phones are running webOS 2.1 (which it did before) and thus don’t make 2.x compatible apps available to them under the new system. It’s one thing for the app to be made unavailable to new customers, but it’d also disappear for existing users as well. It’s threatening to remove some of our favorite apps, like Music Player (Remix) from the available app pool for Pre and Pre Plus phones running webOS 2.1, regardless of whether or not that phone is running 2.1 legitimately or thanks to a meta-doctor update. As far as the App Catalog servers are concerned, the Pre 2 and Veer are the only phones running webOS 2.x right now.
We’re certain this was an unintended consequence of a change that was supposed to make things easier for app developers. While we imagine addressing this oversight is on the Developer Relations Team’s to-do list, they’ve got a lot on their hands getting the App Catalog ready for the TouchPad launch. Thanks to WebOS Internals, there is a homebrew solution: download Impostah and, so long as you know the app ID (com.palm.blahblahblah), you should still be able to download your apps without fear of their disappearing.
Source: PreCentral Forums
71 Comments
It does seem certain this will be have to be fixed, since there are Pre+'s legitimately running WebOS 2.1. Also, HP has shown some off-the-record acknowledgement of the meta-doctor 2.1 upgrade, as phone/vendor combinations that originally required masquerading as 1.4.5 suddenly started working with 2.1.0 a couple of weeks after the whole meta-doctor thing started. AFAIK no one could explain that change other than HP changing their servers to allow it (though they didn't fix it for everyone unfortunately).
I haven't run into this issue on my sprint pre+ running webOS 2.1. Using the test-meta-sprint-pre-2.1.0 script.
So you can download Music Player Remix from the catalog (not the homebrew version)?
I can't see Music Player Remix on my VZW Pre+ running 2.1.0. At least when I search for "Remix", I get only 4 apps none of which are it.
I do still see Vector Conflict, which I thought was a 2.x-only app but I could be wrong.
Beyond that I really don't know which apps are 2.x-only.
Vector Conflict "the siege"/"the siege lite" are available to us Spint Pre- 1.4.5 users.
I think this is actually a problem only for apps that were recently updated to 2.x only. Probably shortly after the Grooveshark app was updated, since I can see it and it's 2.1 only.
Welcome to Platform Fragmentation Management.
Just eliminate older versions, and you have no fragmentation.
GENIUS!
Isn't this what we have our homebrew community for? Get crackin', guys and gals! ;)
Is this as simple as a change to HP's servers? That would be nice too.
I'm not so sure this was "unintended". And what will Pre Plus users who legitimately have 2.1 and don't do homebrew do?
I don't really care whether it was "unintentional" though, I just want them to fix it like they said they would, and not take months to do so. I'm not buying a Touchpad until this is fixed.
It's a necessary change with a glitch in execution. I reckon it will be fixed soon enough.
Yes, I think so too. This new procedure fixed the issue that App-developers would have to change their App-details each time that a new webOS-device hits the market just to add support.
With this procedure it simply has to have the right OS-version, the right resolution and that's it... Theoretically ;)
They seam to have some sort of bug at least for some legacy-devices. I can see Koto and some other, but no Music Player Remix.
You can still see some 2.0 apps because they haven't been updated in awhile. Remix has been updated since HP changed their app submission site. Any 2.0 app that updates from now on will have this issue.
Thanks, Derek, for the reporting. Is a Sprintified Pre2 locked out of seeing these apps?
Shouldn't be since Palms servers dont care what carrier you are on, they are looking at the phone itself.
Yes, and apparently 1.4.5 devices which had an app can't update if an app update was marked 2.0 and up (which is required for Just Type even though Just Type doesn't break 1.4.5 compatibility).
More than that - trying to update an app using my 1.4.5 Verizon Pre kicked me out of my Palm Profile, wiping me out. I get the message HP.
Sheesh, that's rough.
Yes Sprintified Pre 2's have also had this issue. It seems that only Veers and Pre 2's (not running a meta-doctored image) will be able to see all of the 2.x apps.
The Impostah solution only works if you've previously purchased the app. So if someone is looking to purchase my app (or another 2.x app that gets updated), they'll be out of luck if they're running a Pre- or Pre+ running 2.1.
Also this affects Pre 2 devices that have been meta-doctored (like Sprintified Pre 2's).
Chuq emailed me on 6/3 saying they were working on a solution that might be ready on 6/6. That obviously didn't happen. I asked for an update a few days ago and haven't received a response.
BTW, this is just one of many severe problems I've been facing with HP recently. All of them have been receiving 0 support from HP. They don't have time to work on issues affecting 2.x devices, users, or developers. They're only worried about 3.0 and the TouchPad.
This is a significant problem; Can you list some of the other severe problems HP is facing?
Sure here they are:
- Media permissions bug in webOS 2.x causes 3rd party music apps to stop working. This issue has been going on for more than 4 months. HP 1 1/2 months ago developed a "media permissions reset" app that fixes a device inflicted with this condition. I tested it for them and they said it would be released in the app catalog the next week. 1 1/2 months later it still has not been released and I (and the other music app developers) are still fielding all the support emails for this webOS bug. I've received tons of excuses and apologies, but no action or results.
- Devices running webOS 2.0.1 cannot see my app in the catalog when they used to be able to. The app portal is now forcing my app to list itself as requiring webOS 2.1 when it only requires webOS 2.0.1 This has resulted in existing customers not being able to update or re-download my app. Luckily Impostah works around this issue, but not everybody out there knows about Impostah. And it also means that people who may be interested in purchasing my app cannot do so (something that Impostah cannot help with).
- For about a month now the "failed transaction" counts on the app portal site have been inflated. Chuq from HP wrote about a month ago in one of the many threads on this topic that there was an issue being investigated. We haven't heard anything about it since. In the meantime, the failed transaction counts are still inflated and we have no assurances that our download counts are accurate.
The issues listed above (excluding the "failed transaction" issue) are causing me a lot of support emails. In fact the overwhelming majority of my support emails are for one of these 3 issues. And I have people contacting me wanting to purchase my app but they can't because of these issues.
I've been in contact with several HP dev relation reps and they all say they'll investigate the issues...then I never hear back from them. Their user and developer support has been very poor in the past few months no doubt due to their focus on webOS 3.0. The problem is all of their current devices on the market run webOS 2.x and therefore they should have the proper resources available to support those devices.
If HP doesn't start fixing these issues, I'm going to have a tough decision to make. I'm very close to giving up on webOS development. I don't have faith in their ability to support developers since they've failed me and others for months now.
Seems like good material for a news story (wink wink, Precentral).
I've kept from spending any time updating my app so far, because of all of this. I have to decide if I continue and work on other apps I've wanted to make for this platform for 2 years, or just can it and possibly just be a user.
Seeing a Pre 3 on Sprint might help me decide. Not sure I really care anymore.
Yes, I can just imagine all those guys at HP-Palm rotating and being full of stuff to do right now.
I hope this will get better soon after the Touchpads launch.
If it gets better, it will probably only start to slowly get better a month afte the Touchpad launch. By then, enough people will have moved on from the destroyed experience that they will decide it will not be worth it to fix these issues.
I am on a VZW Pre 2 running 2.0.1 and also unable to find Music Player (Remix). It sucks I bought an app and am unable to redownload it because my carrier is slow on phone updates, too.
if you have a pre or pre+ running webos 2.x and are not using the official version (one release for europe only without meta doctoring) then you are using an unsupported OS version and there is no reason HP should care if you are getting your 2.x version apps. Same goes for Sprintified Pre 2 with meta doctored 2.1 on it. You were just taking advantage of a loop hole in the previous setup.
HP has more important things to do then try to correct and issue that is only an issue because people are using an unsupported version.
For all you European folks you have a right to complain and ask HP for a fix. but waiting for the Pre 3 would probably be a better solution.
I don't disagree with you (except for the "waiting for the Pre 3" as a solution for current legit owners).
What's interesting is that many people on this site claimed the leaked rom was HP's way of "making things right" because HP allegedly knew the homebrew guys would come up with a way to apply it to other Pres.
The metadoctors don't use any of the leaked rom. They pull all from the legit releases.
The bug is also affecting people that were given an official upgrade on the Pre Plus. That wasn't a loop hole. This should be fixed, if only for the developers it's hurting. I also disagree with you saying that metadoctored people shouldn't expect a fix. It was working fine, then HP broke it.
Ssh, don't tell him the truth, he doesn't work well with the truth.
Running 2.1 on a european pre plus - does this mean that it won't update 2.1 apps either?
Any 2.1 apps updated recently will not update. Try searching for Music Player Remix and you will see.
I have a Brew-Baked Sprint Pre, running 1.4.5. I saw that Interface lift had an update, and even thought it was marked 2.0, I've had other apps marked 2.0 and higher (Foursquare for example) and thought it would just be a newer, still 1.4.5 compatible, version. Not even! I went to see what was new with the app, and it wouldn't even open! Then I went to the app catalog to see if others left a similar response in the review section, and wouldn't ya know, I got a message to the effect of "This app can't run on your model"! Just deleted it off of my phone after that!
Yeah, I see what you mean. If you don't know, on 2.x the app update manager is separate from the app catalog. A day or two ago, the Update Manager said it had an update for InterfaceLIFT (which I had honestly forgotten about installing, I don't even remember exactly what it does), so I let it install then tried to launch the program to see what it did... no dice, it wouldn't launch. So now, after reading your post, I tried to find it in the App Catalog, and sure enough it's gone.
HP has gotten this all fouled up.
Actually, in the case of InterfaceLIFT, what you downloaded was an Enyo app.
Just another appearance of "making things right"?
Sorry HPalm, I'm off the "I'll buy a Touchpad/Veer/Pre3"-list.
You f**ed me once, you f**ed me twice - won't happen a 3rd time :-(
oh, come on, this is clearly just a temporary error condition. somebody missed dotting an i or crossing a t. I'm always stunned at the nuclear over-reaction people have to things like this.
Ye, but if you f*** up so many times, you cant afford legit **** ups. It's like skipping work for a week and then getting sick on the second week. The fact remains that you haven't been to work for a half a month
It's been 2-3 weeks since this occurred. This is not temporary. No HP issue is ever temporary. It always takes them awhile (or never) to fix the big issues.
I won't believe that it's temporary until it's fixed.
There's a thread with a few new Pixi buyers who can't get into the catalog at all. Is that possible? If so, HP needs to yank the older phones off the market.
I get the push to finish 3.0 but devs are also looking now at the way HP supports its customers which since Feb has been questionable. Inconsistent customer support leads to less customers leads to less developers and becomes a feedback loop. Might be worth HP's time to add a temp dev just to help out with 2.xx issues.
I am a developer for ios and android. My first smartphone was Pre-, but as i am from Belgium, i never had access to any payed apps. Stuck on 1.4.5 firmware and the doctor had issues supporting my unlocked o2 device.
I was rlly considering signing up for the developer program, but now it's clear that HP/Palm is not rlly concerned about European developers and old customers. Aiming for the big bucks without providing big service, no wonder that they cant do anything right
Dude, Pre minuses don't work in Europe. They run on CDMA networks. Dunno how you could make a Pre minus run in Europe. Belgium also has never had the Pre sold there. So if you can't make your Pre - run there, don't blame Palm, blame yourself. It wasn't designed to work in Belgium at all. It's not even sold there.
How could that influence you not to sign up for the dev program? Are you really who you say you are? Are you really an Android or iOS dev? News for you, not even sure you're allowed to sell Android apps in Belgium...
GSM versions of the original Pre were released in Europe, Mexico, and Canada.
Wow, now i have to defend myself? Still chilling under the rock? Germany, France and Spain do sell pre- through online resellers. The same GSM frequency as the rest of Europe. My pre does work, on the outdated os, with almost no apps.
News for you, not even sure you're able to locate central Europe if your rock depended on it. Guess what, Brussels - Belgium is the freakin capital. I can sign up for the overpriced developer program, but i cant even download my own app. Newsflash, billions of people live outside of the US. Other platforms DO sell app and get updates all over the world. But you are right, i should blame myself for ever considering Pre as a phone of me, and it was very naive to expect a broken company to expand beyond few thousands of active users.
I thought the developer program was free.
Wanted to sign up on 2011-03-27, and it was 99 dollar. Checked 2day "limited time we're waiving the annual fee for everyone else."
Nice to know, maybe it'l be worth something
When I read some of these comments, I get the impression that the other platforms got everything 100% right 100% of the time. If that's the case, stick with them. Changing the engine of a plane mid-flight is hard and there are people losing sleep to get stuff moving and course-corrected when mistakes happen.
It's not about getting things right 100% of the time. It's about fixing major issues when they do occur. This is where HP is failing. When I do get emails back from them, the excuse for their inaction is usually "we've been swamped with webOS 3.0". That's no excuse for not supporting your current platform (not legacy...current).
And many times I don't get a response. HP has acknowledged this (lack of) communication issue in this thread: https://developer.palm.com/distribution/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14866
Write an email to Richard Kerris. Keep it brief and specific to the biggest Major Issues. See how long he takes to get back to you.
I already have. I got an email back the same day saying he would investigate. Then another person named Gray Norton emailed me asking for details. I told him all the details about my issues and he said he'd contact me the next week. 2 weeks later and I still haven't heard back from him. Emailed him again last week and didn't hear back.
Also about 2 or 3 months ago, I tweeted to Richard about the "media permissions" issue and he said he'd get right on it. Guess who never heard back from him? Yep me.
Around the same time webOSRoundup posted an article about the media permissions issue after I tweeted them. Sean Lindo, another VP at HP dev relations, emailed me and said he'd investigate and get back with me. Guess who never heard back from him. Yep again...me.
All they do is talk and talk and talk...they never actually do anything.
Richard Kerris will give you the same half-assed response.
"We're looking at it."
"We'll take care of it soon."
"Patience, please, it's being looked at."
I'm taking bets that he's reading this, and he'll post a comment saying one of the three lines I wrote somewhere in his comment.
You forgot the "wow, i need to wear kevlar around here" response.
And this is the state we are in. For every good thing HPALM does. They have 2+ Fup's that follow. This is a company that truly is TOO BIG NOT TO FAIL BUT TO SUCCEED!
I'm starting to think there's a reason why Leo is isolating Palm from HP. He's essentially turning webOS into HP's appendix. Pretty soon that appendix will burst and be removed, and the rest of HP will go on without their appendix.
Dan, no disrespect, but you're always crying foul over something related to webOS. I've read your antics on Twitter, in the forums, saw how many hot issues you pushed. Guess what, if you're on Verizon using a Pre + or minus that affects a minority of users always gets blown up out of proportion and made into a break or make issue.
You know what? I understand your frustrations with HP, but please change your combative tone. It gets nothing accomplished to put them on the defensive all the time and encourage some of the guys here that have it for HP to try to stick it to the man again and again for some perceived slight. You're crying wolf. When you first did two years ago, it worked, but every couple of weeks, there's some new extreme thing causing you push HP Palm in a corner.
It's annoying. It's a freaking transition time. I've asked them stuff many times too. They don't always respond. I ask again privately but I don't generate big drama over something. I wait for an answer and gently remind them them that I have issues that need to be addressed related to my apps. Guess what? It works.
They are trying to deliver on what may break the company or push them to success right now. It doesn't mean your issue does not matter, but it means that using precious resources to fix an issue that affects so few while they could use the same manpower on pressing issues related to the launch, means hard decisions have to be made.
Dude, give them a break. try to cooperate instead of always crying bloody murder. I'm tired of your rants which incites the worse from the naysayers here. I'm pretty sure you don't make a living selling your apps right now. It's probably extra income for you. It won't kill you if you take a hit a few weeks. It's all gonna get fixed eventually. But cut them some loose.
Change your freaking attitude. Be more cooperative, be friendlier. On your own, you bring more negativity to this platform than any of the other people outside who complain and want to see HP fail. And I'm tired of the "It's all about you" attitude.
Full disclosure, I'm not an HP employee. I'm a webOS fan and I make apps too. Knowing what I know about HP, I know they are too mature to even bother defending themselves from similar attacks and negative assumptions in public.
These guys are working their butt off. They are not slacking off as seems to be what many here think. Adding more employees at Palm won't fix any problem. It's crunch time for HP Palm. Cut them some loose, or move on.
I understand where you're coming from. However I'm not publicly discussing these issues to come down on HP or try to be negative about webOS. I've been here from the beginning and would consider myself someone who's contributed positively to this community. I'm talking about these issues because they affect a lot of people (users and developers) and they need to be fixed.
If you saw the massive number of support emails I've received over the past few months from customers dealing with these issues, then maybe you'd understand why I'm doing whatever I can to get the issues resolved.
I can sit back, be quiet, and do nothing while I keep getting support emails asking me why my app no longer works (due to the media permissions bug) or why they can't download my app that they purchased (due to the 2.1 compatible device bug), or I can try to do something about it. And that's all I'm doing. I'm trying to do whatever I can to bring attention to these issues so HP will fix them.
If you aren't interested in hearing about these issues, then just don't follow me on Twitter or visit the Hedami developer forum on PreCentral. That's where I discuss the issues. If PreCentral, webOSRoundup, or some other site runs a story on the issues, then yeah I'll probably comment there as well (like I'm doing here).
And I'm grateful that they are running stories on things like this. It's important to get these issues out in the open because they are affecting a lot of people. It's not about trying to be negative about webOS. It's about solving problems.
One more thing...just so everyone knows...I don't enjoy talking about or dealing with these issues. I wish I could stop talking about it. It's tiring already. But I feel obligated to do so in support of my customers who are feeling the pain of these issues. Trust me, I'll be the happiest person in the world when I won't have to talk about them anymore.
You have not been in this game for four months, back and forth with HP about problems that are costing us developers of the apps affected by these problems real money. Until you have, please keep your opinion to yourself.
You think that you and Dan are he only ones that have API issues and other bugs that need to be resolved in their apps? You think you are the only one with delays in answers from HP? Dan is over-blowing an issue that affects a minority of users right now on a version of webOS that's about to not be supported.
I'd rather Palm focus the limited manpower they have on making webOS 3.0 seamless and great, than fix bugs that affect a few hundred of users - specifically those using a hack on their phones to use webOS 2.0.
It's really annoying. People buy at most a $200 phone and expect support for the eternity.
Dan is one of the most vocal critic all over the Web. Sure, he does it to push Palm forward. Right. But it sounds more like he wants his issues, and his bugs to be fixed asap, ignoring the fact that there may be bigger bugs on webOS 2/3 that the people he speaks with are probably working on.
All that does is enable complainers like you that won't miss an opportunity to bash Palm. It seems like a new national sport these days.
Just **** on HP Palm. If they don't release a spotless Touchpad and webOS 3 platform, they are dead. HP will probably even lose more market share as people move to iPads. I see the bigger picture here. I want them to freaking succeed. And if that means less support for older versions, then so be it. Because if they fail with the Touchpad and webOS 3.0, there won't be any webOS support for older users and versions. There won't be any webOS to bother with at all.
If you're going to comment, please get your facts straight:
1) These are not mere API bugs. These issues prevent customers from running or downloading apps they purchased. In my opinion, that's a more serious issue than simple API bugs. How would you like it if you had apps you purchased that would not run or you could not re-download or update? Guess where these users have gone for support? To developers like myself. When you have to field several emails a day for months from people who can't use or access your app, then you can comment on this situation. Until then, you have no frame of reference.
2) These are not only "my" issues/bugs I'm being vocal on. The "media permission" issue affects all music app developers. I know for a fact that the developers of Koto and Amigo have had to deal with this issue as well. This also goes for the other issues I'm discussing. They affect many other developers and lots of users.
3) The "2.1 devices not seeing 2.x apps" issue does not only affect users who "hacked" their phones to run webOS 2.1. This also affects O2 (and other European) Pre+ users who received official 2.1 upgrades from their carrier. I know because several people who have contacted me for support are O2 users.
4) No one is asking for "support for an eternity". These issues affect all of their currently sold devices (not legacy devices). People buying 2.x apps on 2.x devices today are entitled to support from HP.
Ye, lets just ignore all the issues and sing happy songs about a phone that doesnt give a ratz azz about you
It's mind-blowing to me that there are still people who insist on burying their heads in the sand and pretending everything is okay. Especially when they're essentially telling one of the most innovative and loyal WebOS developers to toe the party line and help protect HP.
That does sound harsh on Dan. I've never met him but I've seen how hard and diligently he works and he is still here unlike some who have left because of these very real frustrations. He's spent his time not only working hard to create his apps but also to give prompt responses to his users--thats real (time and effort) capital spent and not measurable return right now in dollars for him.
That said, I agree that we need to stop blaming and attacking (each other/ourselves too) when there is a problem.
There is a real problem with 2 **** and it sounds like not enough resources have been allocated to the very hard working Palm staff.
how long will the touchpad battery last?
Keep asking! I am sure you're not the only one who wants to know!
Wrong place for that question msechea. This broken link to apps just doesn't make any sense business-wise. Why would HP cut off the life's blood of smartphones? They want TOTAL CONTROL of the catalog. That's why. How much more is a Sprint launch day owner supposed to take? No "supported" devices or OTA updates past 1.4.5? After I spent the time, $ & effort to push webOS further with the help and talents of the Internals crew to upgrade to a Pre 2 running HP's 2.1 (which benefits EVERYBODY in the webOS community) you put a knife in my back with this move HP. Touche. You win. This sucks and I hate you. I thought we were all in this together, but the "Open Source" in webOS is more and more sounding like you saying "Our Stuff".
I feel like Palm's ex-girlfriend who just got put on Palm's new boyfriend's "blocked caller" list. It's like HP saying, "I don't want you taking to him any more!"
HP making "it cool" to **** their customers... a new way everyday.
I'm so glad I didn't WebDoctor my wife's phone cause there is no way she would tolerate having to hack her phone with Impostah just to install an application. I just wished I didn't talk her into getting a Pre. And I really glad my work refused to get me a Pre and gave me a iPhone 4. As a 10+ year fan of Palm devices I hated getting an iPhone but after having to constantly hack my wife's phone for simple things that just should work I'm done with WebOS and waiting for her contract to expire and hopefully get her a iPhone when it comes out on Sprint.
I know this thread is pretty much dead but I heard nothing about this since and am more than a little vexed. I updated from a Pre to a Pre Plus when I heard that european O2 were going to be supported on 2.1. A few months down the track and and now I can't update apps and am stuck on contract for another year. My wife opted for an Iphone 3GS when I got my original pre. I have upgraded and she has not yet all her apps still update and she still is supported by software updates. Love Webos but feel like I've been let down.