Consumer interest in webOS flatlining, HP to "aggressively attack" smartphone segment | webOS Nation
 
 

Consumer interest in webOS flatlining, HP to "aggressively attack" smartphone segment 153

by Derek Kessler Fri, 01 Oct 2010 3:16 pm EDT

ChangeWave 2010 report

If the most recent ChangeWave report is any indication, HP and Palm have their work cut out for them in the market of public perception. According to their survey of prospective smartphone buys, 0% (or at least significantly less than 1%) of respondents indicated an interest in buying a webOS product. That’s in spite of the fact that more webOS users reported being “very satisfied” with their device than BlackBerry or Windows Mobile (both of which garnered more potential customers). Meanwhile, interest in Android has risen to the point that 37% of those surveyed were going to the green machine, while 38% wanted an iPhone in their pocket.

HP’s executives seem to understand what they’re up against. At the recent HP analyst event, HP Personal Systems Group Executive Vice President Todd Bradley dropped a delightfully crunchy line: the Personal Systems Group (under which Palm falms) is going to “aggressively attack” the smartphone market. On the other hand, Bradley indicated that the size of the App Catalog has doubled since July 1, though our own tracking indicates growth of 50% in that time. Don’t get us wrong; 50% growth is tremendous (that’s 1550 new apps since the start of July), but we’re not going to stretch that to a “doubled.” We’ll just chalk it up to a PalmPad-style slip-of-the-tongue.

We certainly hope that aggressively attacking includes strong carrier partnerships, serious and widespread advertising, and a quality line of diverse, powerful, and desireable webOS products. Otherwise, well, we can’t see consumer interest in Palm ticking up otherwise.

Source: Investor Place, CNET

153 Comments

slow news day

So funny, only today morning I just posted in forums how H/P can help palm. Maybe take a read:
http://forums.precentral.net/future-palm-devices/264433-few-ways-h-p-can...

This isn't very surprising. =/
No new hardware for almost 18 months now and Palm Marketing/PR has been silent.

The Pixi launched in mid November 09. That means it's been less than 11 months since new hardware launched, not almost 18.

The Pixi was a step back for hardware. Less of everything. So it doesn't count. :)

I am inclined to agree with this...

I also agree the pixi doesn't count.
When i said new hardware i meant new hardware that can compete with the iphone 4 and HTC Evo

The Pixi was a waste of the plastic it was made out of. But who is to say that Palm won't make the same mistake again when releasing their new hardware. If you don't learn from your history your doomed to repeat it.......DID YOU LEARN ANYTHING PALM?

"Pixi was a waste...."

I don't think it was a waste. It allowed Palm to use up all those old Centro cases they still hadn't sold, lol

The marketing/PR has been lacking for the Pre and Pixi, and the retailers would prefer to push Androids and iPhones, both of which are more expensive than the Pre and Pixi and will generate more revenue for retailers.

To be fair, the report suggested that some of the BB increase was due to the launch of the Torch (something they say tends to happen with most product launches).

On a side note, the aggressively attack line reminds me of the "releaseMyPre" aggressively invited guest. :-)

Indeed, maybe Palm needs to "Aggressively Invite" some users! :)

LOL

Interest in webOS peaked in Changewave's study at 4% right before the Pre launch. I'm actually surprised that Windows Phone 7 isn't registering higher-- the buzz with the technorati seems fairly high. Is it too late, and this is a 2 horse race? I don't care what Rahul Sood says, at some point the window will close for other platforms, surely HP sees that.

The buzz is only among the technorati. I can't remember a single layperson that has even mentioned WP7.

You could say the same with webOS. When it had buzz, it was only among the technorati. Unfortunately, it really missed the mark with that crowd, and didn't resonate with either group. Who IS the highest profile webOS user in the tech community? If you don't count actual HP employees, you'd have to say Dieter.

At least WP7 has a chance with the non-techies, with the xBox integration. Not to mention Microsofts' marketting warchest and probably 5000 apps at launch. Personally, I'd love to see a 3rd strong competitor to weaken the Android/iPhone stranglehold on the market. That's probably the best chance for webOS to survive.

This.

The only people who care about WebOS are the folks on this site. HP dangles their catching-up-to-everyone-else pie in the sky stuff in front of them and convinces these people that WebOS has a solid future as a smartphone platform.

Meanwhile, the world keeps on spinning and people keep buying iPhones and Android phones because WebOS isn't even in consideration. And the people on the forums will say "well, just wait until WebOS 2.0 ships on new hardware." The problem with that is people are already using cutting edge hardware and taking advantage of integrated services RIGHT NOW. While enjoying the breadth of quality apps that probably won't appear on WebOS anytime soon, if ever.

I agree that WP7 will be the strong competitor that keeps Apple and Google honest.

Forget xBox integration, we'll have PRINTER INTEGRATION!!!

Excellent point! We are in the midst of a paradigm shift.... Technology has finally made this possible and HP is bringing all this goodness to us.....thanks again for pointing this out...

Go WEBOS....!

I would agree regarding windows 7 but the in my own experience I've never heard a single person outside of Precentral mention a future webos phone, tablet or printer.

as for apps i'd argue that double the apps or not, The apps i see to the right are not the popular NAME BRAND (Think Tom Tom, ESPN, Sling Box, etc). i get that there are "more" apps but as a regular phone consumer it's not what i expected. Like that stuff in the right column. it makes me go meh. I think it's not just number of apps that are an issue it's that not only is less then 0% of people interested in a webos phone, 0% of companies that people are really interested in want to make apps for webos. It's not just any old developers they need. They need the high quality NAME apps.

Another couple years of no name apps isn't something i'd do. It would keep me from buying another webos phone.

I just wish they would give us SOME idea of when new models might be coming. A month? Six months? A year? All we've heard is "these things take time" and that it won't be soon. But I'm up for a new phone with Sprint now, and I love love love webOS but the Evo and Epic are so tempting just due to their form factor (namely, the huge screens).

If I knew it would be 8+ months until the next new webOS smartphone, I'd jump on an Android model and then jump back in a year.

If I knew it would only be a month or two or three, I'd keep my Pre and wait for the next webOS one.

As it is, I know nothing... so I'm in limbo, and considering an Android-based device just 'cause I'm a gadget whore and have the itch for something new.

I really just want HP to throw us a bone, drop some hints, let some stuff "slip". Unless the news is bad ("no new webOS-based smartphone for at least a year"), I don't see the harm in getting the hype building for the next smartphone. (I keep specifying smartphone, as opposed to a printer or a toaster.)

/Kevin

Here is the conclusion I am drawing. HP is more than willing to flap their lips about webOS on tablets and printers, hinting they're coming in 1Q2011. Therefore HP is not "tight lipped" about unannounced products like so many around here say they are when defending why there is no news of new phones.

They say NOTHING about phones, which means there is nothing to flap their lips about.

If they come out and say "Folks, its going to be 10 months" I think there is a large base of webOS users who would do exactly as you suggest -- jump to Android for at least a year.

The problem for HP? They know that they will lose a percentage of those users forever, they will never return. Therefore they will keep stringing people along hoping they wait for the next device to hit.

With tablets and printers, they don't need to worry about offending their carrier partners. Carriers generally don't want phones pre-announced because it can hurt the sell through of their current inventory.

That being said, HP really needs to drop a phone before the end of the year and drop a new model every 3-4 months going forward to stay in the game. The good news is that if you look at their printers and PC product lines, they have no problem in selling many different configurations for every possible need.

HP PLEASE RELEASE NEW PHONES ON ALL CARRIERS SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH NO EXCLUSIVES. EXCLUSIVES ARE NOT CUSTOMER FRIENDLY AND THEY ONLY HURT YOUR MARKET SHARE IN THE LONG RUN!!!!

I would buy that reasoning if Pres and Pixis were flying off the shelves, but let's face it, they are trickling out of the carriers inventories. There is nothing that is going to hurt current sales more than how bad they are right now...

The carriers aren't just concerned about ruining the sell through of phones from the same manufacturer; instead, they are worried about the sales of all of their phones.

For example, if HPalm announced today that it would be shipping a super phone that blew everything else out of the water, but it wouldn't be shipping until December 15, that could suppress the sales of all the products that it "blows away" (i.e BlackBerry Torch, etc, etc) for the next couple of months. The carriers don't want people waiting for a phone to be released if they can sell them something else today and reap service revenues immediately.

At the rate Android phones are released Palm will only have a super phone that blew everyone away for a week or two before it got trumped again...so dream on.

@kinster02

Yeah, and that Epic 4G you just bought..? Yeah...it'll be "epic" for couple more months at "BEST" so can't really see where your going with this. Gonna drop another $250 in 2 months time?


...More power to you.

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't have an Epic.

@kinster

I guess that means the iphone isn't a good phone?

There will always be a market for the droid-of-the-week. One more mm of screen or 10mhz of processor, will always appeal to children.

But reasonable hardware with a vastly better O/S will have wider appeal and give Palm's next product more endurance in the marketplace.

The Pre came out with cheap hardware and an imcomplete o/s. HP wont make that mistake again. Still the Pre has appealed greatly to a lot of people. This site itself prove's the product is still viable. Even YOU and Mikey47 are in here every day, seeing what Android might be like in a couple of years. Go to androidcentral.com, it's a fricken ghost town, no community. People dont like their phones unless they have the droid-of-this-week, the rest live in the shadows, counting down the days to their next upgrade.

The droid-of-the-weeks are disposable phones in the market place. People hold them until they can stomach the cost to upgrade before the end of contract. Wont be long before you want that Evo out of your pocket, just like the G1 owners. McDonald's sells a lot of burgers. You want fries with that Evo?

The Iphone is a great phone but like new cars it only comes out annually with a new model and Android seems like monthly.

Android, TiPb are ghost towns because they don't have the issues you have on this site.

I buy my phones annually no matter what so that I can sell the old one to pay for the new one while it still has a high resale value...therefore nothing comes out of my pocket.

We are paying $69 a month whether or not we are subsidizing a new phone or not...so by not getting a new phone the carriers are making out. Yes $10 for 4G customers which everyone will pay sooner or later if you have a 4G phone.

LOL, you're comparing a single phone, to an operating system? iPhone vs. any individual Android phone, each droid-of-the-week is an "Epic" fail by comparison regarding market interval viability and sales numbers.

Droid has no community because its badly fractured, who wants to read about the stuff your phone wont do? After a month, everybody has a better phone than you, and we know how badly droiders harp on stuff like that (Mr. I have flash, I have flash. I have flash!...) And kids dont care about tech advances, they just want flash games and porn streams.

Droids dont have issues? You probably should spend some time learning about droids. Epic owners are waiting for the second set of firmware updates to get the phone running cleanly.

our superphone may not rule for too long, but we still have our masked defender!

I don't buy it. If Apple were to decide to launch on Sprint, I guarantee that Sprint would be marketing the hell out of it day 1 regardless of what flagship device they currently had. Dan Hesse admitted when he joined Sprint that the cellular industry had become device centric, not carrier focused.

Probably not. The margin on Apple phones is not that hot. You'd probably be somewhat indifferent. If people wanted the phone, you'd sell it to them. If they wanted to see it and were going to buy a phone but were not sure which one, you'd try to steer them to something with some profit in it for you.

ATT has an exclusive for the iphone, but if you go look at their website, you'll see a careful balance of Iphone, Torch, and others. Currently, its about 40/40/20. And, unless you're fully committed to the iPhone, or the salesman is an Apple zealot, they will always give you a quick comparison and a little nudge to their favorite offer that week (currenlty the Torch, also an exclusive).

Unfortunately from what we have heard, the next Palm phone is not going to be a SUPER PHONE but instead a minor spec bumped Pre. If that is the case and HPalm only releases a phone that is merely equal to the smart phones on the market at that time, it will be hard to draw in new customers. The reality is that HPalm can't survive on it's faithful webos base alone. They have to release a phone that is the premier device on the market at the time of release in order to attract new Palm customers. Without that they will simply have another Pre or Pre plus like response to their new phone which will not make a ripple in the smart phone pool. I really hope for the best from HPalm because I love webos. The one thing I do hate about my Pre is the poor quality hardware.

Hey, we've heard a lot of things about the next Palm phone. People built a whole world from the TUV certifications, even though all they said was they are GSM and CDMA compliant, and have some sort of handsfree capacity. And might even be a phone.

Once WebOS is deemed complete, there is no reason to believe HP Palm wont kick out a new device every 2-3 months. HP doesn't exactly get by on a half dozen printers, three laptops and two specs of desktops. They flood the market with a wide ranges of capabilities, features and form factors. They might equal the droid-of-the-week market mix, and all under a single o/s without fracturing the user base!

We'll soon see.

RE Spec bump vs superphone-

Grandslam Homeruns win games, not singles.

There are NO slams without runners. Slams are made of single and walks.

Maybe HP bought Palm more to use webOS on other devices instead of smartphones...

you think?? The first device they slap it on is not a smartphone but a tablet!

Ditto

I'm glad I didn't wait.

+1

If HP/Palm is constantly silent on webOS, then why shouldn't the consumers be?

Is it really any surprise?

+1

+ 2

I love my webOS device, and I am feeling the fatigue. Can't imagine why webOS would even be on the radar for someone in the market for a smartphone right now.

That's what happens man.. That's what happens when you don't listen to your market. Everybody's frustrated with you now. Good luck.

Palm falms?

Interest flatlines, but Pre owners should shut up and stop asking about a new phone.

Apple has the luxury of trying to prevent word of its new products from leaking out. HPalm does not.

Confirm that a new phone is on the way, give me some #%@#& details or watch me leave very soon. These are HP's options.

I tell people how much I like webOS and how much I like Sprint, but the Sprint version of the Pre is such mediocre hardware that I have no choice but to recommend the EVO and Epic despite how superior webOS is as an OS.

+1 on that brotha

a good STANDOUT ad campaign will help. not creepy wth standout like CreepyPregirl. Imo the Pal....I mean um..Blackberry Pad commercial woulda have been perfect for our OS (which Blackberry is ,ahem emulating) 2.0 update will help. Giving devs access to more APIs (which is happening, from what I've read on this site) will boost interest.

Amen. Creepy girl just freaked me out.

I would also agree that the window is closing. Once the average consumer becomes comfortable with an operating system, it becomes more difficult to persuade them to switch, especially if there is a good software/app infrastructure in their current platform.

How do you really figure you are going to tempt someone who already is comfortable with a different mobile OS?

Buy a palm...the UI is better but there are less apps, less APIs to build apps, and less hardware/form factors to choose from.

I'm not so sure I agree totally with your first remark. It seems like many of the iPhone owners I've talked to recently (besides the fanboys) actually don't like their phones. They're not so hot on the OS limitations, the walled garden aspect, or the ubiquitous reception issues. Last iPhone user I talked to, I mentioned that I'm not a fan of the phone. Expecting to get into an argument, she said neither was she, and the only reason she has it is because her mother had given it to her as a gift and was paying the phone bill.

I'm not as sure with Android, because I personally don't know many people who use that platform, but I think there are plenty of people who can be swayed to a new platform if HP/Palm recognizes the shortcomings of iOS and Android, and then targets them with great advertising.

That's all this survey is about: how good a given platform's advertising is. Since HP/Palm have not advertised anything in months, it's no wonder the mindshare is at 0%. Every other commercial on TV is for the iPhone, iPad, EVO, EPIC, Fascinate, or lower-end Android devices on regional carriers. If HP/Palm can target these same individuals (i.e. the non-fanboys) effectively with great marketing and a solid, competitive product offering, I think you start to see some defectors from other platforms.

Funny, about the only complaint my iPhone buddies have is AT & T. They love their phones. Buds that knew of the antennae problem could care less. They considered it an exaggeration & happily took the free casing offered by Apple.

There is some that may not like their iPhone or OS, but if we are going to be honest vs emotional, we need to look at the numbers. The numbers say consumers like the iOS. Remember, this poll is what people want in their NEXT smart phone.

We (HP Palm) need to make webOS MORE desirable.

I could reference a number of things that support my first statement. The biggest one = windows. Most people are not going to switch from windows as they are comfortable with it.

the mobile space is a little more flexible but look at all of us who are comfortable with webOS and overlook a number of defiencies to stay with our OS of choice (even holding off on yearly upgrades). There's plenty of Apple sheep that will keep buying apple...same with BB, android, etc.

I don't think people get entrenched on one platform. They just choose from what they see in the stores and then narrow their choices based on perception, form factor. There are laypeople who think the droid x is completely different than HTC EVO or Incredible. Once you get used to a smartphone I think you are more likely to branch out. A lot of BB personal users are bailing because they understand their hardware and OS are old.
The more savvy users will start to ask questions: why is BB browser so terrible? (except maybe torch which has a new webkit browser) why does Iphone not multitask very well?

I just got a work Iphone 4 and after 2 weeks, I still like my Pre + more (overclocked and moderately homebrewed). I'm not blind to the pre's flaws (or its pluses like swipe gestures, multitasking) but I don't like Iphone's virtual keyboard (supposedly best), ergonomically incorrect design, interface with little back arrows (where's the swipe gesture?). But WebOs could learn Iphone's clever editing/cut and paste system(magnifies the letters so you can move from letter to letter easily)and a solid steel build. Having and using both give me a better perspective. What palm/HP needs now is new hardware, smoother and capable webOS 2.0 and apps to fill in gaps. I have another 13 months before I qualify for new device so I can wait.

AGREED.........I see all the new apps but I don't want to waste my money on them. Being that my contract with Sprint is up I don't want to sink more money into my Pre if I have to switch to another operating system. Which I will do if HPalm doesn't release an amazing new phone by Xmas.

ok this should be a surprise to nobody. Palm hasn't exactly done ANYTHING to pique consumer interest. I can't forsee a bright future for palm smartphones. If they release a "minor spec bump" instead of an end all smartphone they have got 0% chance of competing. They're already too late with their tablet too. Ipad, galaxy tab, playbook, windows 7 slate, maybe even windows mobile 7 tablet. I'm sorry but palm needed to get their asses in gear months ago

I don't understand why these people (PALM) don't get it. Secrecy works for Apple, but people know when the big Apple press events are held and there are product leaks and rumors in between. You just KNOW that Apple will put out software updates and product refreshes based on their history - look at all the updates to iOS and the updated versions of the iPhone and iPod. For Android there are new products announced every month from different vendors, and there are lots of public info on the next version of the software. Even Blackberry does better in this regard, with rumors of what is comming etc.

But Palm? No updates or rumors about future phones, no leaked pictures, just some mentions of WebOS 2.0 and talk of pads and printers. I never asked for a pad or a printer with WebOS. I did buy a phone and have been waiting for new hardware. All I get is trust us, it's coming, wink wink wink. That won't work for me. I'm gonna check the reviews of Windows 7 phone when it comes out, if I don't like what I see and then if there still isn't any good news of future WebOS phones I will probably jump on Android.

I don't think that it is THAT bad.

Think that HP will reboot with the new webOS 2.0 with some superior features combined with hopefully a really good new peace of hardware.

Don't undervalue the brand of HP in the market as well as the marketing power of this company.

I do not know how HP/Palm should have continued after the merger. This is something impossible. They first have to reorganise the business unit, plan the strategy and then put the power into the development of this unit.
And I am sure they will next year. Let's wait for the CES.

But to be honest....I am also looking for an alternative (the HTC Desire Z for example)...in chase that HP does not come with some exciting news.

No, it really is that bad.

HP have until November 8, and then the door slams shut. Look at these players:

#1: Symbian -- Getting poor reviews for being outdated, but undoubtedly gaining some steam on the excitement front. Even though it is sure to loose market share, it is equally surely getting better. Symbian^3 is now out, and ain't awful, and Symbian^4 will be out early next year, and will probably be pretty good. The N8 looks like a nice piece of kit, and there are several new, compelling phones coming along right behind it (E7, C7, C6-01) in a variety of form factors and price points. If you are a Symbian fan, there are things to look forward to.

#2: Blackberry -- Like Symbian, it may be on the way down in terms of market share, but there is forward motion with OS6. The Torch is a bona fide step up from any other Blackberry to date. The browser and media abilities are now up to par, if not exemplary, and the enterprise support is exemplary. Not only that, the prospect of PlayBook OS on a future phone is there and enticing. If you are a Blackberry fan, there are things to look forward to.

#3 iPhone -- iPhone, too, may have about peaked in terms of market share, but they continue to do well and make advancements. Although the iPhone is no longer in all ways a technology leader, it is still a pretty decent piece of kit and you just know that version 5 is less than a year away! If you are an iPhone fan, there are things to look forward to.

#4 Andriod -- Obviously fast on the rise. Probably the best peice of tech out there right now in terms of the shear number of things it can do. Suffers from schizophrenic design and bit of the uglies, but gets better with each release, and these releases come at a fast and furious pace. Lots of new hardware and new software makes this the "exciting" place to be. If you are an Android fan, there are things to look forward to.

#5 Windows Mobile -- Although 6.5 is being retired for a ground-up rewrite, MS has been in the phone business for years. They have the associations with 3rd party manufacturers, and while WP7 may be missing a lot of key features, there is no doubt that it is the best looking mobile OS on the market (or about to be). A crown it has taken from our own favorite. It will launch November 8th. If you are a Windows fan, there are things to look forward to.

#6 webOS -- The best platform out there. Beautiful, user friendly, and a real revolution when it hit. More than a year ago. Since then, almost nothing. Look up this list. That's along climb. My guess, Palm is dead. Three months ago this wansn't the case. I honestly think that if there is no movement from Palm before Nov. 8, that's it. Fin.

If you are a fan of webOS, what is there? Let's say there are room for three platforms. Can Palm really climb up over two of those competitors? They are all strong.

If you are a fan of webOS, there's webOS 2.0. Looking at all the new webOS 2.0 features, I honestly think it's like getting a new phone without the new phone price tag, but free and OTA. The webOS line of phones, the Pre, Pixi, and any other new phones that will (hopefully) be released, just need better marketing. I've seen the new phones being advertised, and the features they advertise have been on the Pre since day 1.

Do we know 2.0 is coming to our current phones? I am not aware that that's been promised. And if it isn't, then it could be launching on the next device, of which there is no guarantee that there is one anytime soon.

Nice long post except...

--Symbian has ZERO traction in the US "Nokia? They make smartphones??"

--Berry was ubiquitous for a stretch but the Torch basically "burned" any hopes with it's mediocre specs and OS6 didn't really wow anyone.

--Apple...well Catholicism isn't going anywhere and neither is Jobs so...

--Google played a weak hand and called everyone's bluff. No licensing fees to distribute a smartphone with a capable OS? Genius.

--WP7? M$ has a good shot but the previews haven't blown anyone away.

--Palm\WebOS...let's face it, no other OS received the praise that webOS got when it was unveiled, it's truly in a class by itself. Palm had a strong hand but played it wrong (WAY wrong with creepy girl) and didn't actually show the PUBLIC (i.e. non-blog\fansite reading people) what a Pre and WebOS could ACTUALLY do. I've personally "sold" 14 Pre's to folk who were amazed ("Wow! That phone can do all that??") at a simple 5-10 minute demo on my (non-oc) Pre. That and this which I've posted before....

Palm has about 2.6 MILLION (with an *M*) users with Pre's & Pixi's and despite (gasp!) NO NEW HARDWARE being released...

***GAINED*** (added, increased, etc)

...Over 200,000 webOS users last quarter.

http://www.precentral.net/comscore-palm-hangs-49-us-marketshare


-CK
P.A.F.U.

I like statistics too.

Marketshare: 4.9%

Consumer interest: http://www.investorplace.com/investment-research/smartphones/another-maj...

Consumer satisfaction (don't blame this one on advertising): http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2010185

Developer interest: http://www.appcelerator.com/mobile-developer-survey-june-2010/

What more do you want?

That's beautiful. Nobody likes it, developers don't care about it, blah, blah, blah. Hatemonger all you like...

FACTS:

We have MORE developers on board now than ever.

200,000 MORE people bought WebOS phones.

Nice try though...

Yeah but once again how many left...your just replacing the old with the new = 0 gain...blah blah blah!

Zero gain, zero loss, with 15 month old device. What phone has done that? For an imcomplete device, it sure does get a lot of attention. It SCARES YOU KINSTER, makes you tremble. You're in here to assess the threat every day. Or else, you're an online sociopath.

Well as you speak right now three of my friends called to let me know that they just jumped ship and now have Evo's we can use Qik...so how can that be zero? Thats what cell phones data is for, some people twitter others use face book I surf.

Four of my friends just dumped their iPhone 3GS's and got Pre's and want me signed up on FourSquare. You're right, it's not zero, sorry.

Pre doesn't have any developers that matter. Lots of nice people making no name apps.

You act like you didn't read the links. Either that or you don't understand what they mean. There are more developers on board, but how many are there that are making quality apps? How many major names are getting into WebOS? This is reflective of the low developer interest as seen in the link I posted earlier. This is down from January of this year. The fact is, there is very little developer interest. ~200,000 people bought WebOS phones, but look at those customer satisfaction rates. What does that tell you?

Win7 is dead. No bridge back to 6. The o/s has been panned regarding usability. Who's going to make phones and pay for W7 licenses when droid is free and already supported in the app world? Dead.

BB6, Torch looks good. Hardware still lacks a bit, o/s is much better than 5, but while this is a nice step forward, they cant stand flat on their feet the next four years like they did the last four. RIM has to stop chasing the lazy money and expecting client to remain loyal.

Appple, they'll be fine. Yes they might slide to 20% market share, but they'll be happy as long as they extract major coin out of that 20% that will always pay double to receive half.

Android is fine. Clunky sure, but lots of apps. And without a license fee, makers can spend a little extra on the hardware to overspec it and appeal to the customers for a month or so.

Symbian is out there, critical mass even. If Meego comes off smooth and polished, they should continue as the world leader. Nokia has the money, same as Blackberry, nobody to blame but themselves if they dont succeed.

WebOS, far and away the best o/s out there and still getting better. Hardware is easy, manufacturers come in and show off their best stuff, you pick one and had them the O/S. No big deal. Palm has to clear out the rest of their inventory and get the few missing apps and API's finished and then they can stick it on the latest, hottest hardware available. Since they're pointing at enterprise, what the release will be very nice, and very expensive. Palm screwed up when they tried to out-apple apple. HP will make sure all the pieces fit.

If Apple were smart and launched the iphone on other carriers it would easily dominate market share. I don't think there's any merit in declaring any O/S the "best"; I think iOS/Andriod/webOS/Win7(just a guess) are all at a point where they're pretty comparable and just comes down to user preferences. I know this puts me in the small minority here, but I admit that I would flush my Pre down the toilet in a second if the iPhone was available on Sprint.

If iPhone came to Sprint, I'd probably give them a year at this point if Sprint offered it for value. Dont care to be locked down by Jobs, but currently locked down more by Pre's limitations and HP taking such great care of us someday, but "not soon".

Still looking at MyTouch2, this might happen very soon. Not graceful, but very capable.

I think, hypothetically, if they released an Iphone on sprint tommorrow, You'd see lines at every Sprint store for days if not weeks, all but the tiny minority of the "I'll walk over broken glass for Palm" types staying.

I SECOND THAT MOTION! If Sprint some how gets the iPhone before a new Palm release, I will jump ship. If I have to be stuck with a phone for 2 years I want to be stuck with a phone maker that I know is going to give me updates and keep moving forward and grow. Not a company that is telling me what they think they are going to do and yet to prove results. HPalm you are losing a good thing, it sounds like your failure to keep your faithfuls happy is causing us to turn on you. Not because we want to but because you are competing in a market that is moving at light speed and you are moving at bicycle speed (with training wheels). I know you just purchased Palm in July but surely Palm had to be working on a new phone idea way before your purchase.

I don't think many consumers care about "best os" at all. Palm users harp on OS but i don't think it's a major concern for most. it just has to be good enough.

> Win7 is dead.

I will bet you even money that more Windows phones are sold in 2011 than webOS phones.

I will even buy a webOS phone (if one comes out before the end of the year) that you can add to your tally, even if I buy it in 2010. Otherwise, I'm probably going back to Symbian with an E7 or N8, or maybe trying one of MS's partner's offerings.

(Google and Apple can bl*w me.)

Is this even the complete survey? Because none of the percentages even add up to 100%! I highly doubt that interest in WebOS is 0% and if it is, why aren't the other percentages higher?

yeah nobody gives 2 shits about webos anymore. Its all iphone/android

Yeah and i'm one of them.

LOL, kinster you have 15 or more posts in this thread alone, more than 11% of the comments! Your statement is as hollow as a chocolate easter bunny. You may be more fixated and obsessed with WebOS than Sood.

I'm suspecting you're a WebOS closet case. You crave WebOS, you need WebOS, its not coming fast enough, so you bag on it to prompt HP into releasing it sooner. You gotta be in the closet, you post "gay" so often.

Did your sis tell you all that about me after last night...darn shouldn't have let her play with my Evo.

Your middle school retorts dont have much effect on an old man like me. Is this supposed to anger me or depress me? I dont live in your world of low self esteem, trolling another's community while neglecting my own.

this cant be accurate, because android is the leader in smartphones

Well, if you really want to find out, please go here: http://www.glgroup.com/Store/ChangeWave-Research-Consumer-Smart-Phone-Re...

And purchase the report and let us know....enquiring minds want to know.

Apple is Apple, and it's probably safe to say they are where they are because of the apps. The IPhone is a mediocre phone, but it has lots of cute and/or useful apps. Android is constantly in the news because they have a new superphone coming out every couple of months. Palm has..., well Palm has... the Palm Pre, the finest technology mid-2009 had to offer. Hopefully, HPalm will be able to make up for lost time when they finally get around to releasing 2.0 and/or new hardware. A big question for the Palm folks has to be whether the new CEO will share the vision that made HP want to buy Palm in the first place. Or will he see Palm as an unnecessary distraction and try to dump it?

I don't know iphone seems to do more then just apps well. aT least better then a pre. HD video recording, Better Music player, Better digital camera, Better at podcasts, Better virtual keyboard, Better video chat. And like you said better apps. I mean way way way better. So i think for most consumers it's a very compelling offering even looking past the apps.

Bullshit it wasn't even that good in 2009

I've already decided to try the Epic... I'll pick it up tomorrow. My Pre is still fully functional. But since I don't have access to a computer to do all that "hacking," I've kinda gotten bored with the Pre. Hopefully HP/Palm will make a lasting impression on "Newbies" since that's where their survival really depends. But I'll be mute since I'm gonna spend lots of time unlearning all of the WebOS perks & what nots to learn a whole new OS that "seems" to do a lot of what I like without the need to be patched, hacked, rooted, rebooted, & tooty fruited (u get the point)...lol

You only need access to a computer once. Install Preware and you can hack all you want.

+10 on the new OS that "seems" to do a lot of what I like without the need to be patched, hacked, rooted, rebooted, & tooty fruited (u get the point)...lol

keep advertising! Just because there are no new devices, don't stop advertising and even previewing webos 2.0. People have a short memory, the general public needs to be reminded constantly.

I've already decided to try the Epic... I'll pick it up tomorrow. My Pre is still fully functional. But since I don't have access to a computer to do all that "hacking," I've kinda gotten bored with the Pre. Hopefully HP/Palm will make a lasting impression on "Newbies" since that's where their survival really depends. But I'll be mute since I'm gonna spend lots of time unlearning all of the WebOS perks & what nots to learn a whole new OS that "seems" to do a lot of what I like without the need to be patched, hacked, rooted, rebooted, & tooty fruited (u get the point)...lol

The best way to increase interest in webOS? Say nothing about it and give no hope that new devices are being developed and on the way. Yeah, that's the ticket, HP.

*yawn* no news here, I'm pretty sure we all knew this... How can anyone be interested in webos when the ones that still got are either thinking about or have thought about gettin somethin else... Something needs to get put out fast and I'm not talking somethin that's a little better than the pre... I'm talking something that can go heads up with the epic or evo... And b4 the holidays (or during but that may be too long) if not.... Well if not only ones that will be able to buy the next palm phone will be the ones that have vowed never to leave palm.. Every1 else will have a wp7 , android n who know maybe even a iphone.. But of course this is just my opinion and I could be 100% wrong lol

HPalm better do better then that because Sprint has a new Galaxy S phone coming out the Transform and version has three the Moto Cliq 2, Samsung I-400 and the Continuum. To top it off Android 3.0 is due around the same time as webos 2.0 with honeycomb next in line...Whats after webos 2.0??? don't forget Wp7.

How many apps were in the "official" catalog in July? around 2000? Now we are at about 4k? I dont recall what the numbers were in July. Just surprised of the fuzzy math here.

HP obviously needs to release a new phone before the tablet bc you want to create the buzz then ride that wave as it crests into the next device and build momentum and an ecosystem. Then follow up with the printers and new devices etc.

But a new phone needs to happen in conjunction with the 2.0 release and I would advise them not to wait till December for that... more users are leaving every day at this point.

@abbodabbodo
"But a new phone needs to happen in conjunction with the 2.0 release and I would advise them not to wait till December for that... more users are leaving every day at this point."

CONJECTURE! The DATA disagrees with your statement AND your thinking!

Palm has about 2.6 MILLION (with an *M*) users with Pre's & Pixi's and despite (gasp!) NO NEW HARDWARE being released ***GAINED*** (added, increased, etc) over 200,000 webOS users last quarter.

http://www.precentral.net/comscore-palm-hangs-49-us-marketshare


-CK
P.A.F.U.

Yeah but how many has left for other platforms...so you are gaining and losing at the same time = 0. This is like the changing of the guard with the new replacing the old.

Where is the WebOS Defender when you need him???

Buying a Epic 4G thats where!!!

It's funny but everyone who sees my Pre (male and female) comments on it and likes it.

They like the size, the keyboard and it's 'chunkiness'

Thats nice but are they buying...no!

Not only are they not buying, but many of those who bought and loved the chunkiness are leaving. Friend of mine just jumped for the EVO. I expected to hear the disappointment, but so far he loves it..... does not plan on looking back!

My friends make fun of how fat my phone is compared to theirs and they hate the screen size and the keyboard. I have yet to have anyone say that they want a Pre after seeing mine. Although I have come to love my Pre only because of webos and not because of the hardware which is very cheaply made. Even the Sprint repair guy which I have seen 5 times in one year to replace my Pre, said the Pre has horrible hardware. But he said it has an excellent operating system that he never sees problems with.

I find it baffling there is a hp app to print from apple devices but not webos :O

++++++++++++++++1

its been month. make the app already

I find it baffling that the homebrew community hasn't taken the time to do it already. It should be a lot easier than doing it for iOS, webOS being the open system that it is.

I find it baffling that the homebrew community hasn't taken the time to do it already. It should be a lot easier than doing it for iOS, webOS being the open system that it is.

My Pre is starting to act pretty old. I'm going to have to get a new phone before long. I was hoping it'd be a three-way comparison between the Pre2, WinPhone7, and Android. Since WP7 is AT&T only, for now, and there's no news on the Pre2, I think the writing is on the wall.

If there was some sort of tentative date, I could potentially hold off. But, I've long since learned that anything without a date just doesn't exist.

Awesome same thought!

I jumped ship to the Epic, not alot of faith in HP/Palm and I don't think they can ever become one of the big players at this point.

+10 Evo since launch.

The writing is on the wall... wether you want to read it or not.
I can be patient becuase I just gave my wife my discount to buy her a new phone but come March 2011 if there is no "News Worthy" news on the table Im out like stat!

"Aggressively attack!"

No quarter, no prisoners, no surrender!

Let's quit talking about it & do it!!!

As I recall its called "Put Up Or Shut Up" I think HP may be trying to do both... which doesnt really help this situation... We need to hear about something or we can safely assume the worst... tired of heard about tablets!

My daughter loved her Pixi since it's launch, and yesterday she asked if she was up for an upgrade yet cause she wants an EVO. Uhg!

Well, of course she is, since you got her a Pixi instead of a Pre. :P

If I had a Pixi, I'd probably give my right arm for an EVO! :-P

it would be very difficult to text on an Evo with one arm! ...lol

All that is needed is one finger to touch the mic button.

She's smart!

I dont see what the fuss is about, this survey is logical. No new device (and plus version is not a new device) for over a year. With all these dozens of new devices coming out through Android, and the iphone 4 just launching recently, of course they are promising for customers to purchase from. What you should look at is how blackberry and windows mobile percentages is at too. With the Torch just launched, and windows phone 7 coming in a month or two, they are horriable considering. So to me this dosent say anything, let me see a survey when Hp releases a new device, then if its low then Ill be concerned.

well if you all are so disappointed and so unhappy, well what's holding you all up from FOR REAL!!! Android is waiting for you. Throw your hands and say (THE HELL WITH IT)because it not coming no time soon. So don't cry and bitch about it, the choice is yours.I think you all forgot that... I enjoy my pre and i'm going to wait.

nice, but, I think that the argument here is more so based on attracting everyone ( thoes with and without a palm phone, it really don't matter if current owners stay or not because as it stands right now it's still hopeless for hpalm, future smartphone owners will not wait for hpalm to get their head out the sand and developers can't work off "we're working on it" or "its coming soon"

The reality of the situation is simple. HPalm should have release a new phone with about a 4 inch screen within 12 months of the Pre release. A new OS was not necessary. New hardware was. I am looking forward to WebOS 2.0, but in all honesty, I just got an Epic 4G for one reason only - hardware. After getting used to Android, I can easily say that WebOS is better. However, I am not disappointed in my decision. I needed and wanted new hardware. Will I switch back if a great WebOS phone comes out on Sprint that is equivalent (or better) than the Epic? Yes. I love WebOS. I like Android and I hate iOS. Palm created an amazing phone operating system. It created crap hardware. If I could have my Epic with WebOS, I would be in heaven. The only thing Android has over WebOS is the widget, but in every other way WebOS is superior.

How can you say WebOS is superior when it lacks basic features like landscape email, camera and microphone access, suffers from Too Many Cards errors, and has no top tier apps to speak of?

Agree that a new phone should have been out by now considering that Palm's entire portfolio of products was essentially two devices and an OS. WebOS 2.0 is rather meaningless to me without new hardware; exacerbated by the fact that I'm cursed with a Sprint Pre (minus).

Having had a Pre for over a year, having spent considerable time with my wife's Epic and using an iPhone 3GS for 30 days, I can easily say they're all pretty comparable, each having its own set of distinct advantages. I actually thought webOS was shoddy and frustrating up until about 1.3.X and that the card approach to multitasking wasn't as magical as some believe.

However, Palm did do a great job updating the OS for the first 10 months or so-enough for me to start investing in the platform being convinced that a major upgrade (2.0-like) and new device were coming this year. I was wrong on the device, which is in my opinion the highest priority and gives me the most frustration. I don't want to switch to another platform, but being on my 4th Pre, I refuse to continue with webOS if this one happens to die on me.

thats good this chart will make them step there game up

dp.

Well, if someone asked me the same question, I'd pick Iphone also, and I consider myself a very satisfied webOS user. You can't deny the facts, we won't see new hardware anytime soon and webOS is grossly under-supported compared to Iphone & Android. I still think webOS has the potential to be the best mobile OS, but I ain't going to sit around and wait. This industry just moves too fast and HP is a brand new player that has a long road ahead...

Sure it is and keep telling yourself that its good for morale ...lol.

Come on HP, it's resurrection time! Please don't wait till Easter, webOS will be a very ripe zombie by then...

In the meantime, any programmers working on a webOS on Epic 4G Frankenstein? That would be the ultimate homebrew!

tsk tsk Palm Faithful, yet another post which gets us to post how much we want new hardware, and re-affirm our love for WebOS and give HPalm ultimatums!!!

Face it, zero mind & marketshare of the smartphone market is hardly an incentive for HP to ge stuck in.... especially with WP7 around the corner, in fact - thats a major deterrent.... oh sure you'll get your tablet and printer, but the phone will be an average handset, probably a P.O.S. compared to what Samsung,HTC and Apple putting out...

Desire HD (a.k.a European EVO).... you'll be mine in 10 days now....

This outcome was predicted over a year ago, which is a good indicator of why we haven't seen another webOS phone. There just simply isn't enough interest outside of this website.

@kcw

Except that just a 'few' people disagree with you there...

"Palm has about 2.6 MILLION (with an *M*) users with Pre's & Pixi's and despite (gasp!) NO NEW HARDWARE being released ***GAINED*** (added, increased, etc) over 200,000 webOS users last quarter.

http://www.precentral.net/comscore-palm-hangs-49-us-marketshare"


-CK

More people agree than disagree. ;) For every webOS user, there are 19 people who chose another OS.

The bottom line is, there would be at least an announcement of new hardware by now if anyone in the industry thought WebOS phones were a profitable business venture. Or, maybe HP is just keeping it a secret and talking about toasters, printers and pads as a diversionary tactic....

Mmm...I have been reading the messages and my eyes are starting to wonder. I love the community and webOS. I am a hardcore cheerleader. I want it to succeed. A OS bump does not make a great phone. However, webOS 2.0 looks great, all we need is the proper hardware. Thats all I want, even if the OS doesn't go anywhere.

I remember back in June or July when the Evo was announced and the Epic was right around the corner. We were promised 1.4.5. We didn't see it till September. A bunch of us including me agreed that if we had no news of hardware by August, late September we would jump. I am still here, despite no carrot and no announcement. Now they have until November 8 then all bets are off.

It frustrates me to no end that Sprint Pre users are treated like an ugly step child and Palm would be no where with out the homebrewers who created apps and patches; and non developers have been keep hope alive. What they wouldn't give us they made. Now HP has bought Palm..nothing. And all the original designers have gone, which is the way of the market I know. They got scooped up by heavy hitters in the market. All of us and our grandmothers know this, its not news but I would like to hear something.

We have the best OS out there and we are being copied by one of the largest and granddaddy of them all - Blackberry. They are bringing smaller specs than android and apple, but at least its new. And they are keeping the interest going. And I know their OS isn't half as good as ours which is why I left them almost a year and a half ago.

Again, Its hard not to look at all the shiny hardware around me and not drool. I have no obligation to stay with Palm, like they have no obligation to tell us anything. But it hurts my heart because I truly, truly love this thing. Give me and others a reason to stay around. WebOs 2.0 without awesome hardware is not enough.

The writing has been on the wall for a long time. People wait on Palm simply because they want to wait. Like you've said, you set a deadline and nothing happens so you set another deadline. I saw a post further up saying that 0% is not "that" bad. Maybe people are waiting for negative numbers now. I don't know. Palm hasn't announced anything because there isn't anything to announce. Not yet anyway. Maybe there will be something tomorrow...or next week...or...soon...or not as soon as you think. What they won't do is say "Ok, we have nothing, so those of you wanting to leave, feel free to do so and we'll be in touch when we have something concrete."

In the end, if you want to wait, just wait.

I see that there is a lot of the same talk on here. Where is my "new phone," seems to be the lot of it. HP will deliver, I mean the largest technology provider in the world now has an OS (sounds like when Microsoft announced that they would be getting into gaming). Palm is really just beginning, their last 2 years is reminiscent to the story of the G1 and Android OS. Remembering back to 2009 when the iPhone was a dominate force, I used to say if anyone can make a better smartphone it would be Palm. Palm, just recovering from a near death, picked up Ruby and was formulating a way to get back into the smartphone market. Palm, the originator of the PDA and smartphone, not Blackberry. Palm came strong at CES and wow'd everyone. They started to shake up the smartphone market directly aiming at Apple.

Fast forward to 09 late spring where people were getting impatient about Palm releasing the Pre. Apple started leaking information about the next OS upgrade and Palm was struggling to meet demands. Palm with the little money they had (almost purely from investors), had a mediocre launch. Even though the launch was nowhere near an Apple launch they stood their ground against Apple launching a few days before Apple announced their iPhone3Gs release date.
*Note, remember that the 3GS was a spec bump with OS upgrade, so if this happens with the Pre it might not be so bad.*

Fast forward to Fall 09 past the horrible marketing, lack of in-store devices, and 3GS launch. The Palm Pre is compared and reviewed against the 3GS and is on par or better, minus a few features and small app catalog. Homebrew and the Developer community picks up for webOS. Palm Pixi is announced and is less than expected but opens a market for non-smartphone users to purchase one of the first next-gen premium smartphones at non-smartphone prices. Sprint looses more customers but webOS updates roll around to fix the (in my opinion) beta OS that is webOS. First handful of great Android devices are announced and launched, Nexus One is gaining mindshare.

CES 2010, no Apple slate device announced yet; e-book readers come in by the droves; the Nexus One is released and Android season is in full swing. Palm gets webOS 1.3.5, adds PDK apps, announces Palm Plus devices, and announces hot apps promotion. Developers and webOS users alike are happy to hear the news.

Summer 2010, no new phone rumors, Palm on the decline, and Sprint 4G is now available touting the HTC EVO. "It doesn't look good for our hero." Rumors of a Palm buyout are rampant; Apple releases the iPhone4 and iPad that leaves the Palm and the gadget world with mixed feelings, but wanting more; Android devices galore; and RIM attempts a webOS rip-off. Palm execs and designers that made webOS what it is leave for the worlds best smartphone companies after HP is announced as the winning bidder for Palm Inc; HP leaves Palm investors with a bitter taste.

Palm did better than any smartphone company could in the last 2 years, given the amount of money and resources they had. They have made a memorable footprint in the smartphone market once more and should be given chance to wow us again under the HP business unit. P|C users should be real and remember they are less than 3 months out of an acquisition and are struggling to keep marketshare and mindshare (minus the bonehead moves some HP execs have made the Palm acquisition look). We all know HP is not a good phone company, and they clearly don't know much about the smartphone business model. Funny thing is there is no standard business model for smartphones and all hardware, cellular carriers, and software providers alike are creating their own new business models for this market.

But enough of that, here's my prediction for the new Palm. Palm is pulling an Apple move, announce the new OS first and what it is capable of then surprise everyone with the hardware shortly after. I predict webOS 2.0 will launch late this month and the hardware will show up in mid November or at the latest CES 2011 in January. HP needs to do their part and stop talking printers and tablets and meet the needs of the current webOS community but Palm did not have the money to release on the June 6, 2010 annual refresh date. Now that HP has supplied Palm with the dough, hardware accessibility, and live bodies; they need to let the world know that they are spearheading the smartphone world with a new Palm handset. This is actually something the new CEO should have addressed immediately at his press conference. I mean we have in-store Sprint, AT&T, and Verizon employees telling people that Palm went out of business. HPalm needs to hit the ground running with announcements and leaks. I hope that the specs that webosworld.com (http://www.webosworld.com/2010/08/25/what-happened-to-the-palm-c40/) posted comes true. But be warned c40 is coming and in the next 3 months.

Fyi to those looking at the Epic. I too am due for an upgrade and was leaning toward the Epic over Evo until I streamed the same youtube video on both. The Epic looked like an old home movie and didn't utilize the full screen :/ Evo will have to due until Palm pulls their thumb out of their @$$. I

I hate to say it, but if we really look at what HPalm will actually say about new products, unfortunately we will be getting the PalmPad and WebOS printers (running WebOS 2.0) before they come out with new phones. :o(

I believe all this discussion is great, but it comes down to this: if you want to wait do so, if you want to jump ship you are free to do so. I for one love WebOS and I choose to wait. If whatever they come up with doesn't satisfy me there are plenty of choices for me to choose from...

As for those who already jumped ship, I don't understand what they are doing here underminding something they obviously don't care about anymore since they moved on to another platform; why do they keep coming back in here with negative comments? You made your choice, why do you care to post things here? Just asking...

Just so we can rub it in your face.

Well that's it, I feel I'm back at 3rd grade. Thank God I don't make my decisions based on this kind of immature comments...

What is surprising is that it is flat rather than negative considering Palm, and now HP, have said NOTHING for months. Even the faithful are tired of waiting for SOMETHING and interpreting the TOTAL SILENCE to mean nothing is coming. HPalm had better wake up soon. With the constant flood of Android phones, the hardware bar is constantly being raised. Eventually, there will be a competitor's product far enough ahead of the HPalm products to woo away the entire customer base. *sigh*