FYI: The Pre Reports Your Location to Palm 113
Joey Hess has taken a closer look at the code inside webOS that reports information back to Palm and found some details on what the Pre is sending back to headquarters. Specifically, it appears that the Pre uploads (at least) the following information to Palm on a daily basis:
- Location
- Which apps you've used and for how long
- App crash logs
- Installed apps
It's obviously the "location" part here that's troubling. As Hess points out, Palm's Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy are sufficiently broad to give them permission to collect this information. In fact, our own Derek Kessler wrote up a post some time ago (which we were holding because, well, we're not lawyers) which explained that when you agree to Palm's terms, you grant them the right to collect this information.
It's complicated and we don't want to stir up unwarranted panic here. So follow us after the break to find out just what Palm's policy on all this is -- including what rights they have (and don't have) to share this information.
We're indebted to our friend Matthew Miller over at ZDNet for finding the Terms and Conditions, which should also be read in conjunction with Palm's Privacy Policy. Here's the relevant paragraph from the Terms and Conditions:
You agree that Palm and its subsidiaries, affiliates, partners, suppliers, and agents (collectively, Affiliates) may collect, store, access, disclose, transmit, process, and otherwise use your Registration Data, account or Device information, content, and technical data for Palm and its Affiliates to provide you with the Services, address your requests, provide technical support, process any transactions for your account, and otherwise in accordance with Palm's privacy policy. Palm may also provide or enable certain Services through your Device that rely upon location information. In order to provide such Services, Palm and its Affiliates may collect, store, access, disclose, transmit, process, and otherwise use your location data (including real time geographic information) in accordance with Palm's privacy policy. You also agree that Palm has the right, without liability to you, to disclose any information, including but not limited to your Registration Data and other information, to law enforcement authorities or government officials, to the extent Palm believes is reasonably necessary or appropriate.
As we said, this sharing issue is complicated, as Palm needs to be able to gather information just to make Synergy work, and they need share information with entities that to us look just like Palm but in corporate terms may not be (i.e. Palm Europe). Back when Derek was working on the original story, we requested comment from Palm and spoke with Palm representatives -- who definitely eased what felt like rising panic on the issue. Palm contends that their Terms and Privacy Policy are in line with industry standards, here's their official statement:
Our goal has been to follow industry best practices on data collection, use, and encryption. Like most EULAs and privacy policies, though, the terms tend to get pretty detailed about potential scenarios. And because the terms are meant to notify users about all possible variations, we wanted to err on the side of over notifying rather than under notifying users through the terms of use. So there’s really nothing here “beyond the norm” for a EULA or privacy policy.
The provision you’ve quoted explains why Palm might collect user information. For example, we collect and transmit users’ email addresses, email content, contact lists, etc. to provide WebOS services such as back-up and restore for the purpose of backing up that data and helping users restore the data if needed (in that case, it would not be limited to just the email address collected at registration). If users someday make purchases on their device through the Apps Catalog, then we would also collect payment information to process the transaction.
At all times, we’d be strictly bound by our privacy policy. Our privacy policy, like virtually all others in the industry, contemplate our using data to provide services users have requested, improve our products and services (hence the reference to Palm’s own “sales and marketing” in the privacy policy), troubleshoot, etc. We also refer to affiliates because Palm is a global company, and we may need to transmit data from our European subsidiary to the parent company. We’re obviously not a conglomerate with many different subs and affiliates, but the terms specifically mention subs and affiliates so that we can comply with European data protection laws that require us to spell out that data collected by a European sub can be transmitted to another part of the company.
So the story on the Terms is that they must be read in conjunction with Palm's Privacy Policy, which states that they may share information as follows:
- To Palm affiliates and subsidiaries to support business operations and sales, marketing, and customer support processes;
- To third party service providers and suppliers acting on our behalf to provide products or services to you; and
- To other third parties for purposes you have allowed.
...In other words, although the language seems a little flexible (and again we are not lawyers!), Palm's policy states that they'll only share information with third parties who are "acting on [their] behalf." Presumably that means that the information is only being shared with entities that you would consider to be "Palm" anyway. Sharing with other third parties requires your consent ("purposes you have allowed"). Information sharing crisis averted.
Still and all, if you don't like the idea of a computer at Palm HQ knowing where you are, you might consider turning location services off. If you want to prevent your Pre from uploading information to Palm at all (which may break some of the Pre's functionality, FYI), Hess explains how here - Linux access required.
via Slashdot and webOS France- thanks to Tousensemble for the tip, to Palm for the context, and to Derek for working on our original, unpublished post.
Update: We have a 2nd statement from Palm on the issue to further calm the waters:
"Palm takes privacy very seriously, and offers users ways to turn data collecting services on and off. Our privacy policy is like many policies in the industry and includes very detailed language about potential scenarios in which we might use a customer's information, all toward a goal of offering a great user experience. For instance, when location based services are used, we collect their information to give them relevant local results in Google Maps. We appreciate the trust that users give us with their information, and have no intention to violate that trust."
113 Comments
I'm pretty sure any cell phone company can be aware of your location at any time.
Its not being used for no good...its simply being used for statistical analyzes.
I doubt 1500 employees at Palm are planning on keeping tabs on all of us to make sure we stay in line.
Cell phone companies maintain a database of your location when they register with different towers (ping). They can then triangulate your position from this data.
You see law enforcement using this data from time to time to provide details on suspects.
Yes, cell companies can and do, and probably for a good thing. However, this is the phone manufacturer obtaining info, an extra party keeping this data and one we probably didn't expect to have (or need) this info. And, will they share it with yet another party?
Wow...big deal...most information that is supposed to be private can be found with much ease anyways. I would rather Palm have it and have this cool device then Apple or MS have it and God knows where it would end up!
They are right on when they quoted the EULA and how most of these EULAs are written this way.
I for one...AM NOT WORRIED!
I tend to agree - not worried either, hence the "FYI" in the title instead of "OMG PRIVACY FAIL!!!" ....Still and all, folks should know.
Sorry, but just because I'm a fan of Palm's devices doesn't mean I believe Palm employees to have some kind of moral superiority. I think it sucks that these statements are so loosely written such that Palm can give virtually any information about me to virtually anyone they please.
Honestly, would it be okay if I followed my customers to their homes under the pretense that I could "serve them better"?
very well said
LOL @ thinking it's better for Palm to have the info than Apple or MS. Clearly you have drank the Kool-Aid.
DJeremyC you are a brainwashed retard.
with apple or microsoft you are just one in a million...
but with palm you are one in a thousands, and they can do whatever they want with your data. imagen the pre does not sell as expected, plam could be forced to close doors, at last then you should be worried about your data, because then it will be goin to highest bidder....
Well, you'd better GET worried - many Palm employees once worked for Apple. Probably more than a few from M$ too. Unless you believe the unicorns give them halos when they start getting paychecks from Palm? What if Palm sold to Apple or Microsoft or Lenovo later - and THEY got your years of stalking data? Evil is evil, no matter what company or government is running it this week.
Just remember to ditch your phone first thing if you're running from the cops!
Just pull out the battery.
Thanks. I'll remember that the next time I knock off a liquor store :-D
You guys are too funny!
Taking the battery out would extend it's life.
I'm pretty sure that if my greatest rival turned up dead and they found me with more than half a battery charge, I'd go straight to SuperMax in Marion.
Add one more reason to why the iPhone needs to get it's act together and get a removable battery. SHIT!
Hullo - Airplane Mode . this cuts off wifi and mobile phone/data radios
Don't ditch! Make sure the GPS is turned on and toss into the back of a passing pickup truck! :-)
A bigger concern to some should be that Palm collects data about the applications you are running. As far as I know even Apple doesn't do that. For example, since homebrew apps look the same to the Pre as regular apps, that means Palm (and by extension Sprint?) knows exactly who is running the tethering app and how much. It wouldn't surprise me if at some point Sprint had a nasty surprise in store for those folks who have installed and used it.
I think the location information is a non-issue. Any mobile phone provider can track your location simply from the towers you are connected to. If for some reason you don't want Palm to know your location you can turn the radio and GPS off (airplane mode).
how do you know homebrew apps look the same as regular apps?
as far as MyTether, they could just cap your data if they wanted. you could do more damamge by streaming Sprint TV 24 x 7 than you could do tethering 3 times a week.
If you root your Pre you can browse the filesystem and look at whatever you like. It's easy to see that homebrew apps are handled in the same way and recorded in the same database as regular apps.
Oh yes, you can count on Sprint using the homebrew app download against you if you run into an OS problems. I have already been in this predicament while i was complaining about a hardware issue (tuning off when i shut the keypad). If they are bringing the homebrew app download into a hardware issue they are not only very unfamiliar with the device they are also reaching for excuses to cover the shifty hardware problems. Therefore without a doubt in my mind if it had been an OS problem i would not have been covered by my insurance.
I agree... knowing what apps are installed and how often you use them is much more worrying than the rest of it. I have MyTether installed but I'll probably never really have a need for it. But I don't like Sprint knowing it's there.
Actually Apple does do this, they even have a way of killing any app on your phone.. So BS they don't know what you are running. And all their code is closed source anywho so who knows what they are doing.
Apple keeps track of what you download from the App Store but I don't think the keep track of what you're running. There's a difference! And being able to blacklist apps is not the same either.
The T-channel on the IPhone is triggered by nearly every action and request the user initiates. iPod and iTunes are pretty much on par with Tivo for privacy invasion.
"... so who knows what they are doing"
Including you .
I haven't heard of Apple killing any apps. Example: There are iPhone users that downloaded GV app(s) and are still using it/them. Apple *did* remove GV apps from the App Store for new downloads.
its not possible.. all they can do is block you from downloading specific app from appstore...
Not a huge deal. Sprint knows where you are, who you call and how long you talk. Your credit card company(s) know what you buy, when and where. Your cable/satellite company knows what pay-per-view channels/programs you watch. Your ISP knows what sites you visit. If you have fast pass/ez pass/whatever electronic toll payment system have, that company/entity knows everytime you go through said tolls. I could go on, but I think you get my point. We have little, if any, privacy. This should not come as a shock to anyone.
the government implanted microchips w/GPS under our skulls when we were born, didnt you know??
So, that's the funny feeling I get when .... shhh....they're here!
LOL!
Yes, "resistance is futile" you simple proles. Keep buying your new toys by how pretty they are, regardless of the harm they may inflict upon yourselves and society as a whole. I'm sure Palm, their server(s) and its affilliates can be completely trusted to never do anything bad with the data they collect. And you have nothing to hide, right citiz... I mean "consumer."
and the company or government entity you work for would have no problem with you sharing all your contacts and calendars and location data and milliseconds of apps you run and whatever else Palm decides they want to know about you. After all, you have nothing to hide from an innocent little company like Palm and their marketing partners and affilliates and curious government agencies, right?
Are you people who don't value the right to be left alone really that foolish to believe it's not a valuable and important human right?
I have the tinfoil hat you ordered.
I guess I dont understand because for me I see nothing wrong with Sprint knowing where I am from my phone. I wake up, go to work, then go home.. nothing really to hide. So why would it matter if they know where I am?
i am glad they know. if i am ever hit on the head and left in a ditch, at least Sprint could find me.
...and haul your ass to debtor's prison for laying in that ditch instead of paying your bill....
I believe data and location information is also collected by Apple on the iPhone I seem to remember a similar
issue shortly after its release. Here it is http://uneasysilence.com/archive/2007/11/12686/
Another idea to uninform Palm of your usage and location:
Change the PREs HOSTS file to point the ps.palmws.com at your own web server.
Write a simple "RDFileReceiver" script to receive the files from your PRE.
This way you could keep the logs and the phone would think it is sending them home.
The webserver error log would report any other traffic your phone tried to send home.
Just a thought...
very good thought, lets do it!
When Palm announced their push data service that would be provided to developers down the road, I thought it would be obvious to people that Palm would be collecting your information.
When they announced their push data service they said had the ability for applications to receive data based on a users location. So if you had a Garage Sale app it would send you a notification saying hey, there is a garage sale within 5 miles of you. Or an application like Like Me could notify you of a party in your area.
It will bring cool features, but how else are they going to do it. Its not like your Wife can call Palm and ask where you really were last night. They probably couldn't even sort that data if they wanted to. Most of this stuff is filtered and thrown in huge logs that cant be parsed out easily. I bet history is dumped every week or so anyways or else they would have to store tons of data.
Actually, since I subscribe to the Sprint Family Location service for $5/month my wife doesn't need to call Palm. She can just log into a web site and see where I am in seconds! :-)
lol they want $5 for that? why not just use google location ??
using location services and tracking your location are two entirely different things. You do not need to track or log users location to provide location based services. Not giving you the option to not participate is unacceptable period.
For example, google toolbar or any toolbar for that matter has the ability to send info on your surfing habits back to google/M$/yahoo. But the catch is they notify you on the install and give you the option to opt out. Palm putting it in the fine print and not giving you the option is an invasion of your privacy period. It has nothing to do with law enforcement, emergency services or any other legitimate purpose. Cell phone companies don't just track your location because they can. They certainly don't share it without a court order. Does the fine print also give palm the right to share your data with whomever they like? big privicy problem in my book.
The thing I find most disturbing is logging your app use. There is no way any of you would be ok with Microsoft tracking and logging what programs you use on a daily basis. They would be slam dunked in court so fast it wouldn't be funny. In my mind there is no question, this is a bigtime privacy FAIL!
If they were using this for the sole purpose of enhancing the experience they would have been open about it. The way they did this is extremely sneaky. The language in the EULA is very vague and gives you no clue that they buried a "call home" feature in the OS code. Every other "call home" feature in the software world informs the user they are doing it and gives the option to opt out.
Just because I live a good life and have nothing to hide makes it ok to track my where abouts just because you can or for profit motives without my consent.
Others have said that sprint tracks your location, has a log of all your calls ect... First off they do not track you, they can tell where you are by looking at the towers you are connected to and if they are tracking it is for technical reasons to keep the infrastructure working. Does palm have a technical reason to track your location?? NO! Logging your calls is a no brainer, they have to bill you somehow.
I deserve to know exactly what data collected on me is used for and I deserve the option to opt out.
Unfortunately if you are using a pre, it is acceptable as you had to agree to do this.
Whether you like it or not is a different story.
doesnt mean that you cannot do something about it..
To be clear, the language of Palm's privacy policy does not actually mention "consent," but rather says it may provide the information it collects:
" To third party service providers and suppliers acting on our behalf to provide products or services to you; and
To other third parties for purposes you have allowed."
"Allowed" may be different from "with your consent"; "consent" is generally read to require an affirmative action, but I'm not sure that "allowed" would be; passive permission might be sufficient. Beyond that, the first provision above is a *very* broad one, since it covers any third party acting on Palm's behalf to provide products or services to the user.
I'm not really troubled by Palm's privacy policy, and it's written in fairly clear, understandable language, which is a good thing. At the same time, though, I'm not sure that the privacy policy necessarily is clear that location and program usage data will be uploaded daily as part of the backup, unless one could understand that information "to help enable retrieval of that data when restoring or replacing your device."
Thanks, PreCentral, for pointing this out. When it comes to information collection and use, more knowledge on the part of users is always better. {ProfJonathan}
PS Coincidentally, my blog article on privacy policies just got posted to BusinessWeek.com. You can read it here.
In this case, I think "allowed" and "consent" are one in the same. That's why the Pre flashes up a message every time you go to install an app that uses location-based services. Granted, many people might click blithely through that, but it's still consent.
We all realize this setting can be turned off right? Only sends info when on. Only time they will gather info while its turned off is incase of emergency or if law enforcements need it. Every phone company does this and can do this since the V3. Why is everyone so surprised?
Just to look at this from a slightly different prospective - I could see this as being a good thing. About once a week I spend a few hours in a location that requires the phone to go into roaming mode. If this is reported back to Sprint via Palm, then perhaps there is a chance that eventually Sprint could decide where it should place additional towers for coverage. This could be the best way for Sprint to really find out where additional coverage needs to be offered.
And as far as tracking which apps I use, this can be useful towards helping Palm know how and what are actually important to most users. This would seem to a good thing, as it will allow Palm (and Sprint) to determine the best way to support and attract new customers. A very vocal minority may claim that a certain feature is the most important to them, but actual analysis may show that most people don't feel this way. As such, Palm can focus its resources on what people actually want, as opposed to what a few want. Just my two cents.
I'd bet that Sprint has a pretty good idea when you are roaming - since they handle the billing (and have to reimburse the roaming companies). Doubt that Palm's info has any relevance to Sprint, it's for their own thusfar unknown use.
People like this scare the crap out of me. Look just because you have nothing to hide does not mean you should give up your rights. Ignorance like this is what gets people like our current president elected. Use your head.
"Guess I dont understand because for me I see nothing wrong with Sprint knowing where I am from my phone. I wake up, go to work, then go home.. nothing really to hide. So why would it matter if they know where I am?"
well, now they know what you do all day and where you are all day... imagen some affiliate waiting on your work way every day trying to sell you accessiours....
I guess a "Crack dealers toolbox" is not gonna be too popular in the appstore eh?
Ha! The last time the Pre got my location correct was... um... never. Palm is welcome to know how off their GPS coordinates are. Maybe then it'll be fixed.
is that so ? very sad :( makes me thinking about buying one...
I am surprised that so few people are concerned about this. They are collecting data about what you have installed on your Pre and how often you use it and then transmitting this info on a daily basis. There is no need for this and they certainly were not up front about what they were doing.
Where on the Pre file system is the HOSTS file stored? This would be one very good reason to get root access on the Pre.
Too bad Palm just can't provide a good product and sell it based on its merits. The have to add in the spyware also.
As with every Unix-like system, it's /etc/hosts.
>It's obviously the "location" part here that's troubling.
Love the cloud, embrace the cloud, be the cloud.
Another reason to enjoy that synching feeling.
what a bunch of paranoid technophobes
If this is not turned off or they allow me to opt
out in the very next update they will getting my
Pre back the following day.
It's simply a matter of principle, they have NO right to know
where I am and what apps I use. Seriously Palm, you don't
get this?
WORD!!!
well they get the right once you agree to their EULA with buying the phone :P still... PALM GET THE HELL OUT OF MY PRIVATE LIFE! ONLY YOUR PHONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE MY MATE AND ALL kNOWING WONDER, NOT THE COMPANY BEHIND IT!
Does no one pay any atttention to what they agree to? Here is a screen that should look farmiliar to anyone that activated a Pre....
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/08/12/pre-phones-home-with-your-locat...
If you agreed to this when you first got the phone, and now wish you did not, then go to the Launcher and Location Services and turn it off "Background Data Collection" as well as GPS. Problem solved! I noticed this the day I got the phone and did not "allow" my info to be sent. Not sure why it took 2 months for everyone else to figure it out. Also how is Palm to Back-Up your apps if it does not get a list of the apps you have? Amount of time used is a little weird but it could be for many reason like the Dev wanting to know if people are even using the app to see what if any improvments are needed.
I work in the field of data privacy and the responses above are what I am used to seeing: "falls somewhere between a big deal and irrelevant". There are many data privacy topics and debates ongoing now. This is one I would group in the category of consumer personal data and company providing consumer with a product or service.
When people ask me conversationally about privacy, in this category, I tell then that privacy from the consumer's view is about trust and a feeling of comfort. Does Person X "trust" the company that is collecting their personal data? Is Person X comfortable that Company Y is collecting this data? (data retention time is different but related item. 1 day / 6 months / lifetime?) Trust & comfort here is not black & white but rather a sliding scale that varies greatly person to person.
Great comments above
---------
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Nice post, Benjamin.
I'd like an opt-in, or, at minimum, an opt-out option for both the location information and the application tracking.
Personally, I'm less concerned about them knowing where I am than with the application information. I don't see what business it is of theirs to know what applications I am using and how long I have used them. I really don't like that, and, hey, Palm, *I haven't purchased a Pre yet*.
Precentral.net, I hope you will continue to call this to Palm's attention, in the hope of getting us an opt-in/opt-out option.
Do we "tweet" you for the ending?
I personally don't care if Palm knows what apps I'm running or where I am. Honestly, most people seem to have an overblown sense of how important they are in the scheme of things.
But I still think it would be funny if some homebrewer created some do-nothing apps and called them names like "Download Palm Internal Documents" and "Transfer Funds from Palm".
Hilarious!
ignorant noob
Sprint already has a log of every web server I visit with my Pre via EVDO. Sprint already has a log of my gps track whenever I use google maps or sprint nav. Sprint already has a log of every email address I get email from or to. Sprint already has a log of every phone number I get or make a call to. Sprint already has a log of every sms message I get or make. Sprint has the ability to have a log of every cell tower I ping into. Sprint has the ability to read every email I send or receive.
What, exactly, is it that I'm risking in terms of my privacy that palm gets crash logs and usage time of apps again?
Yawn. Who cares?
Even Microsoft and Apple ask for your permission to send a crash report/log. I believe a main concern was tracking by Palm of location.
Bottom line - if you're worried about privacy in the digital age, you're not going to be able to take advantage of any modern technology available - the internet, cell services, even using your credit card and going through a stoplight. They know where you are and what you do. Its fortunate that the masses of data are too much for the average corporation to sift through, or even care about.
The point is, paranoid types stay at home in their caves, its the only way of fully protecting yourself from forces outside of your control.
P.S. someone should report this to the EFF so that they can look into it:
http://www.eff.org/
:-D
that's bullshit. I pay with a credit card with no problems. there is a purpose for me for supplying this information. but there is not purpose for me in giving palm the information palm is gathering.
word!
This a BIG DEAL to me - the fact that this was not disclosed up front really concerns me. Not that I have anything to hide but I am not so sure about Palm. THIS WAS EXACTLY WHY I NEVER GOT AN IPHONE!!!! Never trusted Apple (if they had their way we would all look and act the same and everthing would be locked down!!!) and beginning to lose trust with Palm.
They need to fix this immmediately - I gives me cause to wonder if I want to keep the device - and if not I will NOT pay any early termination fees! I guess I better start looking at other devices??
It appears that your trust was mislaid. :)
In all seriousness, a company would be foolish to not collect this data if it's possible. The marketing benefits are enormous. They probably only use this data at an aggregate level (not individual). Smart phone manufacturers would not have time (nor desire) to research what Johnny Appleseed did or where he was.
With this data, they are able to tweak the OS if similar crash reports come in, they are able to tell devs which apps (types) are used the most (downloaded the most is different), they can let restaurants/devs/stores know in what locations the Pre is most used (wouldn't it be great to walk past a store/restaurant and have a message window pop up with specials available?).
Now, using the collected data at the aggregate level is great. This allows the handful of "opt-outs" to not share their data, while having the probable majority stay opted-in.
An opt-out feature is what Palm should be pushed to implement.
This is why part of this is much ado about nothing...
a) synergy services back up your data daily, including "which apps you have installed".
b) app catalog has to know which apps you've purchased downloaded "so they keep track of apps you have installed".
c) certain apps require your login/authentication usage such as: email, facebook integration, gchat integration, which all merges with synergy services, so "they know which apps you are using" and "3rd party services" (gmail, facebook, etc).
d) since nearly the entire phone is "in the cloud" and you have a "palm profile", you're always "logged in".
e) There's also the app store, amazon store - which would have your info of some sort in the event you need to re-download things you had before (apple does this via itunes, but its on the desktop & phone - palm = in the cloud). also... the very fact that Palm is an open architecture means you can EASILY sniff any data packets if you are really paranoid about what they are logging.
I'm not saying be really lax about this, but this is no worse than gmail with its "contextual ads", bing knowing your search habits, your favorite site tracking your favorite stories via cookie/session id, or anything else that you've signed up for WITHOUT reading the EULA. otherwise, this would NOT be an issue right now.
cheers,
JJP
and this was disclosed to you up front - in the EULA and the Privacy Agreement. Stop buying devices, paying for services, and signing contracts without reading them first.
All I care about is that they don't use the information to spam me with unsolicited phone calls (home, work or my Pre) unsolicited mailings, or (I hate to even think it...) ADS ON my Pre. Just keep the marketing scumbags away from me and I'm fat and happy.
Beyond that, if they want to know where I work during the day, or what route I take to and from work, fine. It's not like that's a secret anyway.
None of this really bothers me. I almost always opt-in. I beta test a lot and feel they need to know what apps are causing crashes and how long they ran. Because of that they need to know where you are to determine if it is a data transmission issue.
I am not a programmer, but my question is this...
Could an app be written to add a secondary URL to the script, thus sending to Palm and acting normal, while also sending the info to www.ijusthackedyourass.com?
This should be locked down so tight that we shouldn't even know this...
I knew this was going to cause a ruckus on Engadget and Gizmodo.
If that scares you about the Pre then check this out about the iphone http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=5114&tag=nl.e550
That article isn't scary. It would be scary if the technology allowed for false reporting - no proof of that.
I would like the cost of future technology to be less by controlling losses where mfg's incur cost due to consumer damage/lying. I also don't like the idea of consumers bringing a boxed-up brick as a return to Best Buy. I suppose Best Buy shouldn't be allowed to open the box to ensure the item is inside with all cables, etc. Best Buy would then know what we had done with the box before the return.
You can bet you arse that if this is successful for Apple, others will soon follow.
Apple has already filed a patent for a technology about device protection. It will be able to tell if you dropped it, if it has water damage, whether you opened it up, etc. I'm not quite sure if they will inform the user of such, but watch as many start to complain about that.
I totally agree with you about the best buy thing, people do that shit all the time, and put the losses on the store. It's not right, and probably contributed to the recession we are/were in. Minimal, but still effective enough.
What's funny to me is that half of the folks up in arms about Palm gathering information, in accordance with the license agreement, are probably the same folks who never bat an eye when our government oversteps laws and rights explicitly enumerated in the Constitution. Government has the power to affect your life whether you like it or not. What can Palm POSSIBLY do with this information to harm you? Some of you need to get your priorities in check.
Daniel0418 was the only other person to post that this can be turned off. Everyone is acting like it is something that can't be turned off.
Also, when I got my Pre at Sprint they fully explained to me the data collection setting. I was aware of what it did on the day of purchase.
I can't stand these posts from people saying "big deal" or "they already know X, so it is ok for them to know Y and Z too" or "I have nothing to hide." Just because someone is too ignorant to understand the privacy implications doesn't mean they should legitimize such practices and call concerned people "paranoid" or joke about it.
Palm has no business knowing my location without my permission... ever, period. And they really have no business knowing which apps I have loaded or that I am using. It is my phone, not theirs.
There should be a clear opt-out for such things BEFORE IT SENDS ANY INFO, or better yet, an opt-in. There is neither. From what I read of this, there is only an opt-out for the LOCATION service. That does not stop the sending of apps installed or used, for example.
Yes, if you "root" the device, you can stop it FOR NOW, until the phone is updated again, or until it is hidden somewhere else.
PALM IS EVIL!
I will wait and see, what android and winmo 7 has to offer.
Yes, you can opt-out. DON'T BUY THE PHONE!
how? I have only read how to opt out of the gps transfer
imagine you could know in real time what your customers were doing with your product?
all they are doing be it good or bad is data mining to make massive desisions based on a huge ammount of organised data.
like if we spend 50 milion on making the app interface better will we get a return?
how else can you spend big money without the risk.
weather you sell the data you collect for marketing to anyone is possible untrackable and easy also profitable too could even pay for the collection of data so you get free data for your self!
google data mining
http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Tools-Data-Analysis%98hold/What-Data-Mini...
PEOPLE, PEOPLE!!!
Launcher >> Location Services >> Background Data Collection >> Off
Damn, this is a DEAD ISSUE! Get your information correct, and then complain. Opt out if you want to, damn!
Your grossly misinformed.
Inform yourself before yelling at everyone with ALL CAPS.
There is no opt out and you method does not address the issue at hand.
The "issue" is not dead. It's just getting started.
and it just wont disable all logging services
A bright side to this that I can see would be if Palm could use this location data to recover stolen phones.
Sure sounds nice and simple to turn it off (thanks 'Dell': Launcher >> Location Services >> Background Data Collection >> Off), but to be able to turn it back on remotely in the event the phone gets stolen, and be able to recover it, would sure be nice..
Better yet...you or a loved one gets kidnapped and has their Pre with them but you can't locate them because you opted-out of their backgraound data/location collector (or the battery died) because they can see that you sit on the AP News app for 2.3 hours a day at Latitude 39.70530867576599 Longitude 86.34388625621796. I still have yet to see any negatives to all this, only postives. They could send Amber Alerts or severe weather alerts to everyone in a certain area by knowing where you are. Maybe it's a generation thing. I'm an eighties baby and have watched the internet and cell phone world evolve so I know nothing else. Why would I want to send Palm an error report so they can have the Dev fix the problem with an app I use? How could they back up my apps if they don't collect data telling them the ones I have installed? Anyways...bouns point for who can tell me where I'm at since that is the real lat and long of were I'm located and I don't care that you all know because none of you care and neither does Palm.
i can back up the apps myself, palm doesnt have to do that for me, and yeah.. once you get kidnapped you have way greater problems then not sending your gps location.
if you really grew up with computer and mobile then you should know about privacy, about the spirit of the web, about the early days. not this world wide marketing crazyness and all their spyes.
Wow, fuck Palm.
Simply unbelievable... the people saying "no big deal" have the same mentality as the idiots at Palm that thought A) it was a good idea and B) they could get away with it.
This is a huge deal if for no other reason it was hidden in a gazillion page EULA. Ask yourself this: if it's not a big deal why hide it... just make it widely known.
This is going to snowball in a bad way and I predict a quick update from Palm to allow opting out.
I am angry at the people at Palm who dare to say they take privacy very seriously and appreciate the trust that users give them with their information, and have no intention to violate that trust. Why?
If the people at Palm were even just serious about privacy they would not dare to retrieve this detailed information about location, use etc. without explicitly letting their customers know they collect that specific private information, when and why they really need it. They would not even think about retrieving that kind of information without explicit consent of their customers. And if they were very serious about privacy they would even warn their customers about the consequences. But no, the people at Palm try to play innocent by referring to a vague policy that does not even come close to describing what and when they collect private information, they ignoring the fact that their customers don't have a choice unless they figure out themselves what the people at Palm really are collecting, they ignore that their customers then also have to beg the people of Palm for a technical solution to stop this collecting.
Also the suggestion the people trust Palm with their data is false. The people at Palm want the world to believe their customers trust them with their personal data. The fact however, is that trust is not based on the situation you can collect the data. Trust is something you have to earn. At Palm they did not even try to earn that trust, the opposite is more in line with their behaviour. At Palm they 'trust' their customers that much with knowledge of what Palm collects, processes and how they can be stopped, they do not even bother providing knowledge and control over their own data.
Personal data is personal property. A company waving with a policy giving it almost full ownership over personal data shows great disrespect for personal property. You can argue customers accepted the policy and it is legal. But privacy is not just about the legal side or the acceptance of text. You just don't try to obtain property of someone else or to control people just because you can.
"You just don't try to obtain property of someone else or to control people just because you can."
WORD! palm is evil!
wowowoowoow
First gmail is reading my mail, and now gmail is getting forwarded to my phone which is sending my location and phone habits to another corporation....
They could have at least bought me dinner first.
Worth a read:
http://www.eff.org/wp/locational-privacy
all these comments and i didnt see anybody mention this.. did yall read the article above???
"The provision you
Maybe they can use the location data to appropriately hide the NASCAR app.
Below the Mason-Dixon line: it shows up.
Above the Mason-Dixon line: it is hidden.
That would be useful.
I like this
Look at the file: The timestamp isn't an actual time and it's uploaded once a day. It's not like they are tracking you live or tells them every place you've been that day. By the time they get the info your more than likely to be long gone from that actual GPS location which is only logged when it sends the report. Tell me from that report you can identify who that phone belongs to? I don't see any identifiers anywhere on there???
When you turn off the background data collection, does it keep palm or sprint form seeing the homebrew apps you've installed? I don't want to be fined by sprint for tethering with the My Tether app.
If users someday make purchases on their device through the Apps Catalog, then we would also collect payment information to process the transaction."University case study a level chemistry coursework a level english coursework a level physics coursework Coursework Writing
Actually no one reads terms of service, so it's not the fairest action from Palm to collect this information, considering the fact that it's a quite private data. But of course from the point of law they don't do anything wrong. HYIP monitor