FYI: The Pre Reports Your Location to Palm 113
Joey Hess has taken a closer look at the code inside webOS that reports information back to Palm and found some details on what the Pre is sending back to headquarters. Specifically, it appears that the Pre uploads (at least) the following information to Palm on a daily basis:
- Location
- Which apps you've used and for how long
- App crash logs
- Installed apps
It's obviously the "location" part here that's troubling. As Hess points out, Palm's Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy are sufficiently broad to give them permission to collect this information. In fact, our own Derek Kessler wrote up a post some time ago (which we were holding because, well, we're not lawyers) which explained that when you agree to Palm's terms, you grant them the right to collect this information.
It's complicated and we don't want to stir up unwarranted panic here. So follow us after the break to find out just what Palm's policy on all this is -- including what rights they have (and don't have) to share this information.
We're indebted to our friend Matthew Miller over at ZDNet for finding the Terms and Conditions, which should also be read in conjunction with Palm's Privacy Policy. Here's the relevant paragraph from the Terms and Conditions:
You agree that Palm and its subsidiaries, affiliates, partners, suppliers, and agents (collectively, Affiliates) may collect, store, access, disclose, transmit, process, and otherwise use your Registration Data, account or Device information, content, and technical data for Palm and its Affiliates to provide you with the Services, address your requests, provide technical support, process any transactions for your account, and otherwise in accordance with Palm's privacy policy. Palm may also provide or enable certain Services through your Device that rely upon location information. In order to provide such Services, Palm and its Affiliates may collect, store, access, disclose, transmit, process, and otherwise use your location data (including real time geographic information) in accordance with Palm's privacy policy. You also agree that Palm has the right, without liability to you, to disclose any information, including but not limited to your Registration Data and other information, to law enforcement authorities or government officials, to the extent Palm believes is reasonably necessary or appropriate.
As we said, this sharing issue is complicated, as Palm needs to be able to gather information just to make Synergy work, and they need share information with entities that to us look just like Palm but in corporate terms may not be (i.e. Palm Europe). Back when Derek was working on the original story, we requested comment from Palm and spoke with Palm representatives -- who definitely eased what felt like rising panic on the issue. Palm contends that their Terms and Privacy Policy are in line with industry standards, here's their official statement:
Our goal has been to follow industry best practices on data collection, use, and encryption. Like most EULAs and privacy policies, though, the terms tend to get pretty detailed about potential scenarios. And because the terms are meant to notify users about all possible variations, we wanted to err on the side of over notifying rather than under notifying users through the terms of use. So there’s really nothing here “beyond the norm” for a EULA or privacy policy.
The provision you’ve quoted explains why Palm might collect user information. For example, we collect and transmit users’ email addresses, email content, contact lists, etc. to provide WebOS services such as back-up and restore for the purpose of backing up that data and helping users restore the data if needed (in that case, it would not be limited to just the email address collected at registration). If users someday make purchases on their device through the Apps Catalog, then we would also collect payment information to process the transaction.
At all times, we’d be strictly bound by our privacy policy. Our privacy policy, like virtually all others in the industry, contemplate our using data to provide services users have requested, improve our products and services (hence the reference to Palm’s own “sales and marketing” in the privacy policy), troubleshoot, etc. We also refer to affiliates because Palm is a global company, and we may need to transmit data from our European subsidiary to the parent company. We’re obviously not a conglomerate with many different subs and affiliates, but the terms specifically mention subs and affiliates so that we can comply with European data protection laws that require us to spell out that data collected by a European sub can be transmitted to another part of the company.
So the story on the Terms is that they must be read in conjunction with Palm's Privacy Policy, which states that they may share information as follows:
- To Palm affiliates and subsidiaries to support business operations and sales, marketing, and customer support processes;
- To third party service providers and suppliers acting on our behalf to provide products or services to you; and
- To other third parties for purposes you have allowed.
...In other words, although the language seems a little flexible (and again we are not lawyers!), Palm's policy states that they'll only share information with third parties who are "acting on [their] behalf." Presumably that means that the information is only being shared with entities that you would consider to be "Palm" anyway. Sharing with other third parties requires your consent ("purposes you have allowed"). Information sharing crisis averted.
Still and all, if you don't like the idea of a computer at Palm HQ knowing where you are, you might consider turning location services off. If you want to prevent your Pre from uploading information to Palm at all (which may break some of the Pre's functionality, FYI), Hess explains how here - Linux access required.
via Slashdot and webOS France- thanks to Tousensemble for the tip, to Palm for the context, and to Derek for working on our original, unpublished post.
Update: We have a 2nd statement from Palm on the issue to further calm the waters:
"Palm takes privacy very seriously, and offers users ways to turn data collecting services on and off. Our privacy policy is like many policies in the industry and includes very detailed language about potential scenarios in which we might use a customer's information, all toward a goal of offering a great user experience. For instance, when location based services are used, we collect their information to give them relevant local results in Google Maps. We appreciate the trust that users give us with their information, and have no intention to violate that trust."
113 Comments
Cell phone companies maintain a database of your location when they register with different towers (ping). They can then triangulate your position from this data.
You see law enforcement using this data from time to time to provide details on suspects.
Wow...big deal...most information that is supposed to be private can be found with much ease anyways. I would rather Palm have it and have this cool device then Apple or MS have it and God knows where it would end up!
They are right on when they quoted the EULA and how most of these EULAs are written this way.
I for one...AM NOT WORRIED!
I tend to agree - not worried either, hence the "FYI" in the title instead of "OMG PRIVACY FAIL!!!" ....Still and all, folks should know.
very well said
DJeremyC you are a brainwashed retard.
with apple or microsoft you are just one in a million...
but with palm you are one in a thousands, and they can do whatever they want with your data. imagen the pre does not sell as expected, plam could be forced to close doors, at last then you should be worried about your data, because then it will be goin to highest bidder....
Well, you'd better GET worried - many Palm employees once worked for Apple. Probably more than a few from M$ too. Unless you believe the unicorns give them halos when they start getting paychecks from Palm? What if Palm sold to Apple or Microsoft or Lenovo later - and THEY got your years of stalking data? Evil is evil, no matter what company or government is running it this week.
Just remember to ditch your phone first thing if you're running from the cops!
Just pull out the battery.
You guys are too funny!
Add one more reason to why the iPhone needs to get it's act together and get a removable battery. SHIT!
A bigger concern to some should be that Palm collects data about the applications you are running. As far as I know even Apple doesn't do that. For example, since homebrew apps look the same to the Pre as regular apps, that means Palm (and by extension Sprint?) knows exactly who is running the tethering app and how much. It wouldn't surprise me if at some point Sprint had a nasty surprise in store for those folks who have installed and used it.
I think the location information is a non-issue. Any mobile phone provider can track your location simply from the towers you are connected to. If for some reason you don't want Palm to know your location you can turn the radio and GPS off (airplane mode).
how do you know homebrew apps look the same as regular apps?
as far as MyTether, they could just cap your data if they wanted. you could do more damamge by streaming Sprint TV 24 x 7 than you could do tethering 3 times a week.
If you root your Pre you can browse the filesystem and look at whatever you like. It's easy to see that homebrew apps are handled in the same way and recorded in the same database as regular apps.
Oh yes, you can count on Sprint using the homebrew app download against you if you run into an OS problems. I have already been in this predicament while i was complaining about a hardware issue (tuning off when i shut the keypad). If they are bringing the homebrew app download into a hardware issue they are not only very unfamiliar with the device they are also reaching for excuses to cover the shifty hardware problems. Therefore without a doubt in my mind if it had been an OS problem i would not have been covered by my insurance.
Actually Apple does do this, they even have a way of killing any app on your phone.. So BS they don't know what you are running. And all their code is closed source anywho so who knows what they are doing.
Apple keeps track of what you download from the App Store but I don't think the keep track of what you're running. There's a difference! And being able to blacklist apps is not the same either.
its not possible.. all they can do is block you from downloading specific app from appstore...
Not a huge deal. Sprint knows where you are, who you call and how long you talk. Your credit card company(s) know what you buy, when and where. Your cable/satellite company knows what pay-per-view channels/programs you watch. Your ISP knows what sites you visit. If you have fast pass/ez pass/whatever electronic toll payment system have, that company/entity knows everytime you go through said tolls. I could go on, but I think you get my point. We have little, if any, privacy. This should not come as a shock to anyone.
So, that's the funny feeling I get when .... shhh....they're here!
Yes, "resistance is futile" you simple proles. Keep buying your new toys by how pretty they are, regardless of the harm they may inflict upon yourselves and society as a whole. I'm sure Palm, their server(s) and its affilliates can be completely trusted to never do anything bad with the data they collect. And you have nothing to hide, right citiz... I mean "consumer."
and the company or government entity you work for would have no problem with you sharing all your contacts and calendars and location data and milliseconds of apps you run and whatever else Palm decides they want to know about you. After all, you have nothing to hide from an innocent little company like Palm and their marketing partners and affilliates and curious government agencies, right?
Are you people who don't value the right to be left alone really that foolish to believe it's not a valuable and important human right?
I guess I dont understand because for me I see nothing wrong with Sprint knowing where I am from my phone. I wake up, go to work, then go home.. nothing really to hide. So why would it matter if they know where I am?
i am glad they know. if i am ever hit on the head and left in a ditch, at least Sprint could find me.
...and haul your ass to debtor's prison for laying in that ditch instead of paying your bill....
I believe data and location information is also collected by Apple on the iPhone I seem to remember a similar
issue shortly after its release. Here it is http://uneasysilence.com/archive/2007/11/12686/
very good thought, lets do it!
When Palm announced their push data service that would be provided to developers down the road, I thought it would be obvious to people that Palm would be collecting your information.
When they announced their push data service they said had the ability for applications to receive data based on a users location. So if you had a Garage Sale app it would send you a notification saying hey, there is a garage sale within 5 miles of you. Or an application like Like Me could notify you of a party in your area.
It will bring cool features, but how else are they going to do it. Its not like your Wife can call Palm and ask where you really were last night. They probably couldn't even sort that data if they wanted to. Most of this stuff is filtered and thrown in huge logs that cant be parsed out easily. I bet history is dumped every week or so anyways or else they would have to store tons of data.
Actually, since I subscribe to the Sprint Family Location service for $5/month my wife doesn't need to call Palm. She can just log into a web site and see where I am in seconds! :-)
lol they want $5 for that? why not just use google location ??
Unfortunately if you are using a pre, it is acceptable as you had to agree to do this.
Whether you like it or not is a different story.
doesnt mean that you cannot do something about it..
To be clear, the language of Palm's privacy policy does not actually mention "consent," but rather says it may provide the information it collects:
" To third party service providers and suppliers acting on our behalf to provide products or services to you; and
To other third parties for purposes you have allowed."
"Allowed" may be different from "with your consent"; "consent" is generally read to require an affirmative action, but I'm not sure that "allowed" would be; passive permission might be sufficient. Beyond that, the first provision above is a *very* broad one, since it covers any third party acting on Palm's behalf to provide products or services to the user.
I'm not really troubled by Palm's privacy policy, and it's written in fairly clear, understandable language, which is a good thing. At the same time, though, I'm not sure that the privacy policy necessarily is clear that location and program usage data will be uploaded daily as part of the backup, unless one could understand that information "to help enable retrieval of that data when restoring or replacing your device."
Thanks, PreCentral, for pointing this out. When it comes to information collection and use, more knowledge on the part of users is always better. {ProfJonathan}
PS Coincidentally, my blog article on privacy policies just got posted to BusinessWeek.com. You can read it here.
We all realize this setting can be turned off right? Only sends info when on. Only time they will gather info while its turned off is incase of emergency or if law enforcements need it. Every phone company does this and can do this since the V3. Why is everyone so surprised?
Just to look at this from a slightly different prospective - I could see this as being a good thing. About once a week I spend a few hours in a location that requires the phone to go into roaming mode. If this is reported back to Sprint via Palm, then perhaps there is a chance that eventually Sprint could decide where it should place additional towers for coverage. This could be the best way for Sprint to really find out where additional coverage needs to be offered.
And as far as tracking which apps I use, this can be useful towards helping Palm know how and what are actually important to most users. This would seem to a good thing, as it will allow Palm (and Sprint) to determine the best way to support and attract new customers. A very vocal minority may claim that a certain feature is the most important to them, but actual analysis may show that most people don't feel this way. As such, Palm can focus its resources on what people actually want, as opposed to what a few want. Just my two cents.
I'd bet that Sprint has a pretty good idea when you are roaming - since they handle the billing (and have to reimburse the roaming companies). Doubt that Palm's info has any relevance to Sprint, it's for their own thusfar unknown use.
well, now they know what you do all day and where you are all day... imagen some affiliate waiting on your work way every day trying to sell you accessiours....
I guess a "Crack dealers toolbox" is not gonna be too popular in the appstore eh?
is that so ? very sad :( makes me thinking about buying one...
As with every Unix-like system, it's /etc/hosts.
>It's obviously the "location" part here that's troubling.
WORD!!!
well they get the right once you agree to their EULA with buying the phone :P still... PALM GET THE HELL OUT OF MY PRIVATE LIFE! ONLY YOUR PHONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE MY MATE AND ALL kNOWING WONDER, NOT THE COMPANY BEHIND IT!
I work in the field of data privacy and the responses above are what I am used to seeing: "falls somewhere between a big deal and irrelevant". There are many data privacy topics and debates ongoing now. This is one I would group in the category of consumer personal data and company providing consumer with a product or service.
When people ask me conversationally about privacy, in this category, I tell then that privacy from the consumer's view is about trust and a feeling of comfort. Does Person X "trust" the company that is collecting their personal data? Is Person X comfortable that Company Y is collecting this data? (data retention time is different but related item. 1 day / 6 months / lifetime?) Trust & comfort here is not black & white but rather a sliding scale that varies greatly person to person.
Great comments above
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Nice post, Benjamin.
I'd like an opt-in, or, at minimum, an opt-out option for both the location information and the application tracking.
Personally, I'm less concerned about them knowing where I am than with the application information. I don't see what business it is of theirs to know what applications I am using and how long I have used them. I really don't like that, and, hey, Palm, *I haven't purchased a Pre yet*.
Precentral.net, I hope you will continue to call this to Palm's attention, in the hope of getting us an opt-in/opt-out option.
I personally don't care if Palm knows what apps I'm running or where I am. Honestly, most people seem to have an overblown sense of how important they are in the scheme of things.
But I still think it would be funny if some homebrewer created some do-nothing apps and called them names like "Download Palm Internal Documents" and "Transfer Funds from Palm".
ignorant noob
Sprint already has a log of every web server I visit with my Pre via EVDO. Sprint already has a log of my gps track whenever I use google maps or sprint nav. Sprint already has a log of every email address I get email from or to. Sprint already has a log of every phone number I get or make a call to. Sprint already has a log of every sms message I get or make. Sprint has the ability to have a log of every cell tower I ping into. Sprint has the ability to read every email I send or receive.
What, exactly, is it that I'm risking in terms of my privacy that palm gets crash logs and usage time of apps again?
Yawn. Who cares?
that's bullshit. I pay with a credit card with no problems. there is a purpose for me for supplying this information. but there is not purpose for me in giving palm the information palm is gathering.
word!
This a BIG DEAL to me - the fact that this was not disclosed up front really concerns me. Not that I have anything to hide but I am not so sure about Palm. THIS WAS EXACTLY WHY I NEVER GOT AN IPHONE!!!! Never trusted Apple (if they had their way we would all look and act the same and everthing would be locked down!!!) and beginning to lose trust with Palm.
They need to fix this immmediately - I gives me cause to wonder if I want to keep the device - and if not I will NOT pay any early termination fees! I guess I better start looking at other devices??
All I care about is that they don't use the information to spam me with unsolicited phone calls (home, work or my Pre) unsolicited mailings, or (I hate to even think it...) ADS ON my Pre. Just keep the marketing scumbags away from me and I'm fat and happy.
Beyond that, if they want to know where I work during the day, or what route I take to and from work, fine. It's not like that's a secret anyway.
None of this really bothers me. I almost always opt-in. I beta test a lot and feel they need to know what apps are causing crashes and how long they ran. Because of that they need to know where you are to determine if it is a data transmission issue.
I am not a programmer, but my question is this...
Could an app be written to add a secondary URL to the script, thus sending to Palm and acting normal, while also sending the info to www.ijusthackedyourass.com?
This should be locked down so tight that we shouldn't even know this...
I knew this was going to cause a ruckus on Engadget and Gizmodo.
What's funny to me is that half of the folks up in arms about Palm gathering information, in accordance with the license agreement, are probably the same folks who never bat an eye when our government oversteps laws and rights explicitly enumerated in the Constitution. Government has the power to affect your life whether you like it or not. What can Palm POSSIBLY do with this information to harm you? Some of you need to get your priorities in check.
Daniel0418 was the only other person to post that this can be turned off. Everyone is acting like it is something that can't be turned off.
Also, when I got my Pre at Sprint they fully explained to me the data collection setting. I was aware of what it did on the day of purchase.
I can't stand these posts from people saying "big deal" or "they already know X, so it is ok for them to know Y and Z too" or "I have nothing to hide." Just because someone is too ignorant to understand the privacy implications doesn't mean they should legitimize such practices and call concerned people "paranoid" or joke about it.
Palm has no business knowing my location without my permission... ever, period. And they really have no business knowing which apps I have loaded or that I am using. It is my phone, not theirs.
There should be a clear opt-out for such things BEFORE IT SENDS ANY INFO, or better yet, an opt-in. There is neither. From what I read of this, there is only an opt-out for the LOCATION service. That does not stop the sending of apps installed or used, for example.
Yes, if you "root" the device, you can stop it FOR NOW, until the phone is updated again, or until it is hidden somewhere else.
PALM IS EVIL!
I will wait and see, what android and winmo 7 has to offer.
Yes, you can opt-out. DON'T BUY THE PHONE!
how? I have only read how to opt out of the gps transfer
Your grossly misinformed.
Inform yourself before yelling at everyone with ALL CAPS.
There is no opt out and you method does not address the issue at hand.
The "issue" is not dead. It's just getting started.
and it just wont disable all logging services
i can back up the apps myself, palm doesnt have to do that for me, and yeah.. once you get kidnapped you have way greater problems then not sending your gps location.
if you really grew up with computer and mobile then you should know about privacy, about the spirit of the web, about the early days. not this world wide marketing crazyness and all their spyes.
Wow, fuck Palm.
"You just don't try to obtain property of someone else or to control people just because you can."
WORD! palm is evil!
all these comments and i didnt see anybody mention this.. did yall read the article above???
"The provision you
Maybe they can use the location data to appropriately hide the NASCAR app.
Below the Mason-Dixon line: it shows up.
Above the Mason-Dixon line: it is hidden.
That would be useful.
When you turn off the background data collection, does it keep palm or sprint form seeing the homebrew apps you've installed? I don't want to be fined by sprint for tethering with the My Tether app.
If users someday make purchases on their device through the Apps Catalog, then we would also collect payment information to process the transaction."University case study a level chemistry coursework a level english coursework a level physics coursework Coursework Writing
Actually no one reads terms of service, so it's not the fairest action from Palm to collect this information, considering the fact that it's a quite private data. But of course from the point of law they don't do anything wrong. HYIP monitor