HTC considered, decided against, purchasing webOS. Again. | webOS Nation
 
 

HTC considered, decided against, purchasing webOS. Again. 220

by Derek Kessler Mon, 17 Oct 2011 4:06 pm EDT

It’s a new week, so that means it’s time for us to cross another potential suitor off the “Who will purchase webOS?” list. This time it’s HTC, who had made noise a few weeks back about possibly purchasing a mobile operating system of their own. This isn’t the first time HTC’s considered and dismissed webOS, though it is the first time CEO Peter Chou has stated so publicly. In an interview with The Financial Times, Chou stated that HTC had given some thought towards purchasing HP’s webOS operating system, but in the end decided it’d be in their best interests to stick to their current arrangements with Android and Windows Phone 7.

Alas, that leaves pretty much just Amazon as the only rumored purchaser for webOS. If so, it’s beginning to sound almost like a repeat of HP’s purchase of Palm less than two years ago: a desperate search for anybody willing to pay even a bit for the company, and in the end only one company was even willing to make an offer. With Amazon’s Android offerings (the Amazon Appstore and the Kindle Fire tablet), we have to wonder if they’re even really interested. Stranger things have happened, but this platform can remain on life support for only so long.

Category:

220 Comments

And why would this surprise anyone?

I'll say it again, **** HP!

My god. WHY WOULD ANYONE NOT WANT AN OPERATING SYSTEM LIKE THIS.

This is the kind of operating system you DREAM of creating, building on, and making global. Whoever doesn't purchase this and enrich it to its' full potential (while I can't blame them) is not very forward-thinking. At all.

Yes, I used that phrase, the one that engadget used in the iPhone 4S review.

webOS is very forward-thinking.

maybe because HP was looking for a price close to their 1.2 billion instead of an realistic offer.

I would think that HP would sell the patents as well and alone (with no webOS) they would probably get $3 billion considering what Google paid for Motorola. With all the work HP put into webOS, it surely should be worth more than what they paid.

Almost all of my friends didn't buy $99 Touchpads even though I told them with plenty of time to order.

Why? There's a psychological barrier to buying something that's others aren't buying. With the $99 Touchpad, they perceived it as no one being interested and thus they viewed it as "broken" without actually evaluating the value it represented for the price.

Why would anyone bother even evaluating the value of something that costs $99? It's not like you would spend three weeks doing research. Either you buy one and see for yourself or you don't. It looks like your friends didn't want a Touchpad like 99% of all the other people out there.

My friends tend to have the money where they could say, "Eh, if I'm going to spend my time getting acquainted with a tablet, I'm going to make sure it worth my while."

I don't know if you can say that 99% of all the other people out there didn't want a TouchPad. It seems like a great majority of them did at the right price (the $99 price that was the context of what I brought up).

I assume you don't actually have any idea how many and whoch type of patents HP got when they purchased Palm?

They haven't got many and none that are relevant to todays smartphone landscape - that's why nobody is interested in buying webOS. If they had rock solid, relevant, patents there would be buyers queueing up at the door - but the silence is deafening. That's all the evidence you need to know it's dead.

HP will be lucky if they break even on their purchase. I say Apple should offer HP $1 billion firm. Then they can sue the **** outing anyone they want. With Palm's patent portfolio they could potentially ban the sale of any of their competitors anywhere they please.

"WHY WOULD ANYONE NOT WANT AN OPERATING SYSTEM LIKE THIS?"

i think the simple answer is because nobody buys the devices. simple as that. It's about the bottom line. All that other stuff doesn't really matter in the business world.

This.

Seems people forget about "business sense" when it comes to anything webOS.

Why would anyone not want an operating system like this?

Probably for the same reason the current owner of the operating system is looking to dump it.

Given that the entire focus of the technology industry is almost exclusive focused on phone and tablet operating systems, it seems that a technology company has two choices:

1) Get in the game. This means getting webOS, not being regulated to a low-margin hardware manufacturer of Android devices. (How's that Streak going, Dell?)

2) Close up shop. People want all their devices to work together. Going back to #1, attempting to differentiating yourself in mobile hardware on Android puts you exactly in the position that HP wants to get out of - selling off their low-margin hardware PC business.

The reason the current owner of the operating system is looking to dump it is because they are afraid to take the risk to compete against Apple and Google. That may be wise of them. However, it looks like HP is preferring to die slowly than take that risk.

1) Get in the game. This means getting webOS, not being regulated to a low-margin hardware manufacturer of Android devices. (How's that Streak going, Dell?)

Interesting you quote the Dell Streak and not something like the GS. These companies (the same ones people around here seem to think are in desperate need of webOS) have been rejecting webOS publicly and sticking with Android and WP7. Either they are missing something or webOS is.

My money is on the latter of the two.

By the way, HP didn't drop webOS simply because "they didn't want to invest". They were failing with it all along. They could not even secure many carrier relationships when they were actually trying. Naturally they couldn't simply state "we're getting out of this business because we've failed at it". They HAD to attempt to explain how getting out of the biz is actually GOOD for business. If you look at the history of events that happend since the $1.2B investment, they clearly were not afraid to take the risk to compete against Apple and Google. They simply failed to compete against Apple and Google. They failed for many reasons that will likely be discussed in MBA classes for years to come, but "fear of risk" and "no desire to compete" will likely NOT be among them.

"By the way, HP didn't drop webOS simply because "they didn't want to invest". They were failing with it all along."

Thank you for saying this. I am sooooo tired and bored repeating over and over again, that it was not webOS what has failed, but the company(ies) trying to sell it - with wrong phones (hardware), and terrible marketing.

AAaaanyway...

LOL. I guess New Coke didn't fail either. If Coke had just really, really, REALLY tried hard and bet the company on it, it would've worked.

No product fails, actually. It's only ever the companies trying to sell it. Thanks for splitting the hair.

Aaaanyway, WebOS = incessant failure.

...and what has any Coke to do with it. Maybe your coke intake with your hiccuping postings only.

I am sorry, from my corner of the world, I cannot see the analogy between a fizzy drink, and a brilliant tech, that has been failed by it's owners to sell it. For many different reasons, but definitely not for being inferior technology.

I do not know what is so hard to understand in it, it happens all the time with technology - it is a common mistake that "the best product wins". It is not true, very often. If you are critical tech world observer, you will learn with time. But not, if you are evaluating the technology by sales figures, ther's where your confusion is coming from.

No confusion. The WebOS product is a failure whether it is "best" in your opinion or not.

it is a failure, and it is best, all at once. Can you stomach this, and explain how? I can, and have explained to you, many times. Getting tired of it, honestly.

You ever like a movie that bombed at the box office? Loved a restaurant that closed due to slow business?

Seems bizarre that this needs explanation. Glad you think WebOS is the best and not a failure. In the marketplace by any objective metric...it IS a failure.

The best tech wins more often than not. The problem is people try an judge tech purely on "technical specifications" and forget about the "softer specs". It is usually a combination of those things that determines the winner.

People around here LOVE to claim webOS is the better OS. It is simply not. It has (had?) some things going for it but it is (was?) severely lacking in too many areas for too long.

all of tech is not phones and tablets. That's an amazingly narrow view. That's a big consumer thing but it's not everything. tech is servers, and data storage, it's switches, it's the tech that puts 4G on towers, it's electronic switching companies. it's companies like skyworks solutions, avago, qualcomm that makes a myriad of chips in tvs, tablets, phones, computers, microwaves etc. It's enterprise solutions it's cloud clients. HP's choice is to stop competing in a stagnant consumer computer market and going like ibm into enterprise storage.

If people had bought their devices they'd take the risk. They didn't. Nobody is gonna take a risk when it looks like there would be no reward.

people don't like to hear the truth but nobody was buying veers and touchpads except the people on this site and that's just not nearly enough. Especially in a market where apple can sell more phones in 3 days then you sold over two years.

"If people had bought their devices they'd take the risk. They didn't. Nobody is gonna take a risk when it looks like there would be no reward."

....and thank you for saying this. The reward, would be aggressive pricing, that should make it happen. But not pricing themselves off the market.

If by agreessive pricing you mean selling every device for a loss you're deluded if you think most companies can afford to do that or even set out to do that. That's only a reward for the consumer. Not the seller and that's the point. It's the seller's perspective that matters. They are the ones taking the risk not guys on a message board. Massive debt when you have small cash reserves selling a phone is not a reward it's a recipe for bankruptcy.

Microsoft? Google? Not HP, definitely.

...and yes, Asus Transformer could have been built, distributed and sold AT PROFIT at $400, having better spec/better build than TP, and being twice as fast to the market - so there were ways for HP to break even, and CHEAPER than $400, or make some slight profit at $400 - rebranding/OEM outsourcing.

But that would be asking for too much from a quick buck company, lead by accountants.

LOL. The Transformer uses the same 10.1-inch screen/Tegra 2 chip/16:9 aspect ratio mass parts every Honeycomb tablet uses, and Asus had a fully developed OS waiting for them with Google handling all of the hard work.

The Touchpad, unfortunately, uses the same IPS 9.7-inch display parts that Apple uses for the iPad (except for the processor), and Apple locked that supply chain up long before the iPad came to market, so I highly doubt it costs less to build a Touchpad than it does a Transformer. Additionally, they were developing the tablet version of the OS from scratch, and didn't get a stable version out until it had already flopped in the market.

"The Touchpad, unfortunately, uses the same IPS 9.7-inch display parts that Apple uses for the iPad (except for the processor"
...so what? I meant, and I think I was clear with my writing, there were ways to get cheaper 10" webOS tablets, better specified, to the market, by using rebranding/OEMs, and break even, or make a slight profit. Of course they would need to keep investing in webOS software for at least one device generation now - that is unquestionable, and it is only you and HP execs that ever thought otherwise.

What you mean by all this above specs reshuffling?

So, you think they should have stuck WebOS onto a generic Honeycomb tablet even though they contracted with Qualcomm and now recompiled WebOS 3.x to run on a Tegra 2?

And they would have made a slight profit selling at the same price as other Honeycomb tablets?

In that case, why not can WebOS altogether and slap Honeycomb on it?

"In that case, why not can WebOS altogether and slap Honeycomb on it?"

...there are many reasons why, but you are not at all interested in hearing them, really, are you? You are here just to throw sheisse around, are you?

Still waiting for the reasons why.

yes no one bought a TouchPad because it was $500 and up when it came out. everyone realizes that Ipad[2] is a quality device and although pricy it was a good investment. and for the Touchpad (np matter how good we think it is) $500+ was way too much. remember the Staples sale for $300? THAT was the sweet spot!

basically HP didnt want to invest much but wanted to reap the profits ...ant thats why they failed.

...yes, they wanted to follow jerrydan's advice and insist to make money with every single webOS device version current sold. Right up until the firesale.

so you're gonna fault a for profit business for wanting to make a profit? Naive. **** even at $300 i think they are taking a loss per device. And losing more then $300 million per quarter? That's your advice. If it's such a slam dunk then i say put up your own money. If it's such a slam dunk how come no other company wants to do it? Cause nobody is dumb enough to float Palm phone development for two years when faced with more then 1 billion dollars a year in losses just to operate.

I love this idea that HP didn't try hard or "invest much".

Because it's a small thing for a company to drop $1.2 billion just to buy another company, incorporate the vast majority of their employees, spend several hundred million more on R&D, push it to every retail outlet possible, pay for expensive ads run during primetime buys on major networks and during major sporting events, and then to mark it down to try and save it while eating hundreds of millions more in losses.

The "sensible" option - as favored here - is to just keep dumping money and try "harder". How are these billions lost supposed to be recovered? App sales. Never mind that Apple's app store has NOT netted them even ONE billion dollars in profit in over three years of best-in-class operation.

Forward-thinking, with backwards performance and functionality. Who could resist buying this?!

You never used a Pre3.

I don't doubt that the Pre 3 is the best WebOS smartphone to date. But that's still akin to putting lipstick on a pig.

"But that's still akin to putting lipstick on a pig."

...why? Of course, in today's reality, it doesn't matter at all, but why exactly FINALLY making a right phone, is something bad?

Because it's still running WebOS. It's still slower at all tasks than competing operating systems running on lesser hardware. It still has no meaningful apps available for it. It still lacks a competent media ecosystem. In an ideal world, where HP is still selling and supporting the Pre 3, users will still be signing petitions for ports of Dropbox and Netflix and [insert just about any game worth playing]. Because it's still running WebOS.

"It's still slower at all tasks than competing operating systems running on lesser hardware."
Now that just makes me laugh. I can compare Desire S, Galaxy S2, and Pre 3, which I all own & use extensively. And I do not know what "tasks" you meant, (maybe opening Maps application), but any REAL task you throw at these three, I will accomplish it faster, more comfortably with Pre 3 - THANKS to webOS, and physical slider keyboard.

Apps availability? True, non existing. I wonder why no one was writing apps for webOS, while HP was proving time and again that they had no clue what they are trying to do, what they NEED to do to make it a success? Does it answer your question about OPERATING SYSTEM's inferiority? Man, you are seriously confusing things

Yeah, what company wouldn't want to be limited to making physical QWERTY portrait sliders and candybars because the phone OS STILL hasn't been brought up to modern landscape/onscreen keyboard specs, and neither have many of the apps?

Or try to compete with a million $100-200 tablets firesold that you have to try and convince people to pay twice as much for so you can barely eke out any profit?

You don't have to convince people to pay double the firesale prices - they are already doing so.

Plenty of the firesale devices were snatched up by employees and traders to make a quick buck on ebay.
And that's exactly what's happening.

The going rate for a 32 GB TP is ca 250. And that's for a discontinued device with probably no future bought via ebay (adding a bit of risk to the transaction compared to a shop). People would pay more for a supported device with growing app market, active marketing and directly from a shop.

Oh, like when it was $399, well advertised and Best Buy had hundreds of thousands collecting dust.

HP said they were losing money at THAT price.

Yes, I missed your reply in my haste. I don't believe HP was actually LOSING money at $399, but they sure where making much--the things simply weren't selling.

Cathy Lesjak, their CFO, specifically said they WERE losing money on the day they announced cancellation.

Yes and how much money does HP lose when the public at large thinks HP is dysfunctional, short-sighted, and too scared to stay in the competitive consumer and more specifically the mobile market. 40% loss of their market value. Their CFO/head bean counter should have considered that.

You think the market value loss was due to WebOS being canned? Gotcha.

HP lost $332 Million dollers per quarter on HP. And the cost was said to grow in the next quarter. You don't have to believe it but it's part of their financial disclosures and they can go to jail if they are intentionally fraudulent. I'm much more inclined to believe those that actually look at the books, sell the product and are held accountable by the SEC and the Department of justice then people speculating on Precentral.

"Oh, like when it was $399, well advertised and Best Buy "

It NEVER was well advertised, jerrydan. iPad, iPhone, Moto Droid, Evo, numerous HTC/ Samsung phones - THESE are well advertised. webOS devices NEVER were.

But sure, you have examples at hand of these great adverts, being aired every two minutes in every network in every country that webOS was available, right?

Yes, let's pretend that the Russell Brand and Manny P. ads didn't air during major sporting events on Fox and most big basic cable stations (e.g TLC and Food Network) during Primetime.

Miranda Cosgrove's ads never aired during primetime "tween" programming. They didn't sponsor Lady Gaga. Heaven knows they didn't put extensive displays and demos in every Best Buy.

They didn't pay for placement on Jimmy Fallon AND Jay Leno. Nope.....it never happened.

I'm sure Sprint outspent them on Evo ads....snicker.

You forgot to mention that they also never purchased trending topics on Twitter. LOL

OK, so Russel Brand, Amanda whatshername, and Manny whomever, these are great ads for technology products? There was ONE great advert of webOS: "life moves fast. don't miss a thing" when was it, remind me? What DEVICES were available for people to buy, back then?

We don't have to pretend anything, true, jerrydan, especially we don't have to pretend that webOS marketing was not abysmal and completely, utterly non existing, comparing to the competition. All these things you so scrupulously nit-picked (you forgot the full-page magazine ad! And NY metro posters!) - and who on earth have noticed these blips, apart from webOS community? No one even knows webOS exists, unless being hit on the head with it by some webOS enthusiast around him. And this includes good chunk of people who I'd consider being above average in terms of being interested in tech.

Also, I thought you mentioned "Oh, like when it was $399, well advertised and Best Buy had hundreds of thousands collecting dust."??? Where did you saw theses "well advertised" communication, on which you are building your strawman argument, that despite being well communicated at that price point, it never sell?

All I know, I was in US for two weeks, around the TP launch date. During that time, I have never seen any single TV advert of any single webOS device. They might have been aired, I don't know. I just never seen them. Must be my luck. But... must be my luck again, in the same time, I have seen about quadrillion short and to the point iPad adverts.

Not to mention UK/Ireland - where I don't think I have seen any single webOS advert, since the original Pre- and it's creepy lady.

Twitter? Twitter? Seriously? And what is twitter? Has anybody ever bought or even clicked on any advert spammed on Twitter? Maybe you want to throw some website banners in the mix, as an examples of brilliant marketing push behind webOS??? Or, maybe HP "launches", consisting of company press releases?

Please... I can't argue the obvious, and the obvious thing is, webOS marketing stunk since it's inception right to it's grave.

"What is twitter?" - I rest my case, your honor.

Funny...I remember people here bragging about how good all those ads were and how Manny has a great following that would surely jump on board. Same was said about Lady Gaga's influence. Now, after yet another failure, we're back to blaming the same ads that were once praised. It's getting (nay, it IS) old.

...oh, I got it, so now quoting the very same delusional people who you are constantly jeering at for being unrealistic and delusional, is used by you as an argument how "good" these ads were supposed to be, right? How inconsistent of you.

...see, but the real thing is, they were not that fantastic, these adverts, and they were not aired enough, not even closely to. Nor Twitted enough, not whatever distributed enough (jaysus, the idea of selling/pushing webOS forward by some feeble adverts farts (all two of them) on a medium like Twitter, is beyond ridiculous).

I don't know why I am discussing that with you, actually, if you insist that webOS marketing efforts were good, than I don't think there is much more left to discuss with you in this regard. As I said it to you before, there are many ways of wasting tens or hundreds of millions of dollars, what HP did with webOS promotion, is a perfect example how NOT to sell new, unknown tech. You might disagree on this with me, you are welcomed, but you must be a very lonely voice saying that what they did and how was anything good.

Like I said....no effort is good enough for the boosters here. HP gave WebOS a movie store, sync software, tablets, exposure to a kazillion retail outlets, including QVC - which let people buy these hunks of junk on an installment plan! Hundreds of millions spent on advertisements which were praised by the editors and citizens of this site and run often. They showed cards and multitasking in a closeup way that Palm, Sprint, or Verizon ads rarely did.

This was all weak and bad, and they should have committed to at least another 5 billion and 12 months of trying before throwing in the towel. It's crazy that a company with a fiduciary responsibility to countless shareholders would choose NOT to do that!

..we must live in different worlds, jerrydan, if you call their push something good, or even viable, in the mobile devices/OSes wars. I do not have issues calling it costly - it certainly was. But it wasn't good, that is sure

Numbers are your things (or are they... after 12months you mention, $400mil loses/quarter, it makes another 1.6bln in my world, not 5bln), understanding the causes and effects certainly is not (or you just refuse to listen, all the same).

I have nothing to add to you anymore.

Wow...you think setting up custom demo stations for your product in the biggest brick and mortar electronics retailer is bad?

You think paying for total awareness of your product launch between Twitter, print, Web ads, and expensive TV ads with celebrity endorsements was not viable.

Hooookay.

BTW, the $5 billion was a made-up arbitrary figure for comic exaggeration. But even throwing away another $1.6 billion when they had no way to recoup it was madness. Better to just mail a $5 bill to each of the 300 million US citizens to thank them for being great.

How long was the Touchpad listed for $399 before HP's board killed ruined the company, a week and a half? Do you actually know what the sales were in that time period compared to other tablets?

Please take your arrogance, "facts" and complete lack of business savvy somewhere else.

LOL.

I don't need to know the figures. THEY knew the figures, crunched the numbers, and realized they couldn't sell these devices at a profit.

Fact. Not "fact", whatever that is. If you want to ignore their CFO and think that things would have magically turned around if they wasted a few more billion, have at it. I'll be over here in the real world.

"I don't need to know the figures. THEY knew the figures, crunched the numbers, and realized they couldn't sell these devices at a profit."
Aha. At least that's what they said. And they did all of that in seven working days between $400 price reduction, and the earning call, and they made their strategic decision in that short timespan, based on sales numbers of the TP, that has not been communicated/advertised at "new revised prices", right... Speaking about delusional people...

No, that decision has been made at higher levels than where price reduction was decided, and well before, sir, so please, please, in your haste to ridicule everything webOS, at least follow the slightest traces of a common sense, because it is just embarrassing to even read this bunch of nonsense coming from you.

Oh, so the CFO is on the conspiracy too! It was a shadowy cabal of Illuminati plotting from behind the scenes to "get" WebOS at all costs now?

HAHAHAHAHAHA. You know you're speaking to a lunatic when the paranoid world that conspires against their interests is so richly detailed.

really? What conspiracy are you talking about? Companies of the size of HP make strategic decisions on a whim, in a 7 days? The same companies who take months and months to do any small move with webOS devices earlier on?

You are barking, sir.

It takes months and months to release WebOS devices because they require development, testing, etc.

It takes all of a morning meeting with the board of directors to decide that WebOS aint working and it's done. That's why most of the people within HP affected by the decision (including Rubinstein, McArthur, and DeWitt) found out at the same time you and I did.

Problem is, it cost HP $330 to make a TouchPad. Therefore, even at $250, they would still be losing money. $399 is the minimum price they could sell the thing for an make a reasonable margin (and even then, not a GOOD margin), and the TouchPad clearly didn't sell at that price.

Sad as it is, it's game over, folks.

There is much more bundled into the price besides component costs, I'm afraid. $399 for a 16GB Touchpad was a price few were willing to pay when it was viable.

NOBODY is paying that for a 16GB Touchpad now.

NOBODY, huh, wow? A cancelled device recently selling for $100 with a dead-end OS? And people aren't paying $400 for that?

So insightful...

And again, how long was the tablet priced at that price point that you keep bringing up before HP's brilliant board of directors pulled the plug?

Long enough for Best Buy to threaten to ship hundreds of thousands back.

HP would not have pulled the plug if the sales of their devices was anywhere near their projections. The thing was not selling. You can try to twist it any way you want but you still end up with a product that simply was not selling.

stop being realistic. it's much easier to live in fantasy world where geeks just expect all companies to take massive losses for the sake of an operating system that contribute nothing to it's bottom line. God forbid they actually want to have profits. What ever would they do with them? Maybe pay salaries.

Bottom line is the devices didn't sell. People just don't like to hear it. they were not good enough.

...new universal basher: "no on-screen keyboard"???

Well, why would you need one, if you have a physical keyboard?

Landscape keyboard is not as good as portrait. Trust me. Been there, done that.

Jerrydan, if you buy webOS, I'll buy you a software keyboard for it in a matter of weeks. Ther's plenty of them on the market, believe me. There's just no use for them, when all your phones DID have physiscal keyboard.

Ah, anyway... Have to feed the dog.

....Wow, man. Just....wow.

erm... don't get your point here. Not the first, not the last time I suppose. YOu impressed with my dog being more important than repeatedly addressing your razor thin "arguments", inventing "flaws" in webOS? Listen, there's no need, the thing is was never flawless, and now is dead anyway - for all the different reasons than your constant tons of BS throwing

"YOu impressed with my dog being more important" - I feel like I'm arguing with the subtitles to a Vietnamese action movie.

see, jerrydan, when I am pointing out your stupidity, I do my best to base it on your actual stupidity, and not look for arguments in typos or lack of attention to write you something in very poetic/grammatic way,

BTW, I am Polish, not Vietnamese. I can try to do my best to argue with you in two other languages beside my mother's tongue, if it makes your skull more penetrable to arguments. But I do not have too high expectations, because you haven't proved yourself too brilliant even in your native language.

Now, go invent something new, because most of your stupid "reasoning" has been addressed for ten times, and you were never there to admit "maybe I wasn't right on that specific thing, but...". No, you just keep throwing sheisse on the wall, knowing that some will stick.

I guess I understand where the stereotypical Polish jokes comes from now....Shame.

"I guess I understand where the stereotypical Polish jokes comes from now....Shame."

..you are getting even more "to the point" than usual, jerrydan... I am actually glad we had this discussion up to that point - I will not insult your nation, even if it had produced such an inbreed as yourself, it is enough to point out your individual "qualities"...

shame, indeed...

When I say "stereotypical Polish jokes", I'm saying that they're inaccurate when it comes to your nationality.

Wholly applicable to you, though. Me having to explain this kinda proves my point.

Sorry.....

"When I say 'stereotypical Polish jokes', I'm saying that they're inaccurate when it comes to your nationality."

yeah, it makes a perfect sense - to bring racist stereotypes to the table, just to make a point that you are NOT making racist stereotypes judgements. In your unique very specific kind of "making sense", that is.

You could at least have the courage to admit that you are also a racist arsehole, on top of being just a regular arsehole.

Why? Because after RIM blatantly ripped off webOS and now WP Mango also has cards what is realy so special about webOS? And i would not be surprised if HP are asking too high price for it.

Yes cards is the simplest, most intuitive way to multitask and everyone is beginning to copy it (even android ICS has tasks previews, though not as elegant).

This is BS! Im so pi55ed off at HP for what they did! Oh i sooo hope Google would consider buying it and incorporating some of it into Android.

While I have to agree with you webos is a great OS, at the same time it has a lot of faults. It has gone through 2 owners now and they both lost a lot of money on it.

I really hope I am wrong and I really hope webos will survive, but if you were a company, would you be willing to risk an investment where the past 2 companies failed with it? No matter how much I like it I wouldn't, to risky and could be costly.

I see where your both coming from cheburashka and tholap, webos isn't to blame. Palm did what they could with what they had, and unfortuneatly it didn't work out for them. HP had the resources to make it great but unfortuneatly they replaced Hurd with Mr. Dumb **** I mean apotheker who destroyed what HP had going for them. I wish Mark Hurd stayed in charge and I could bet things would be a lot different.

they only failed because... well Palm failed because they were tight on money in the first place so they couldnt really push webOS as much as they needed to. HP on the other hand has absolutely no excuse. they came out in February boasting their size, strength, resources, how they were going to make a whole ecosystem blah blah blah, "marathon not a sprint" blah blah, and then just gave up 6 months later!?

Palm didn't just fail because of money issues. In fact, the money issues were a result of their failure. When, out of desperation, you risk it all on a hail-mary and things don't work out, it's not actually the hail-mary that did you in.

Palm failed long before webOS came to market. webOS was their desperate hail-mary that, unfortunately, didn't work out for them.

It's like saying MC Hammer's "I'm really ganster, check out my pumps'n'a bumb" caused him to fail rather than realizing he made so many mistakes that he was failing and decided to take a risk on something else with hopes of a recovery.

Ok...sorry...I probably went to far with the MC Hammer thing...not even sure why that popped into my head. sigh*

Funky headhunter!

Your analyses is faulty.

I don't think that webos was a loss for Palm - quite the contrary. What would have happened to Palm without webos? Dying after a couple of PalmOS updates and then getting plundered for patents.
With webos they had at least a small chance and they did manage to get bought for a decent price.

And HP no doubt lost a bunch of money - but that wasn't because of webos, but because of their aborted attempt to even be in the market. Investing in webos and then giving up before they even tried to sell the Pre3 (*great* device BTW) has more to do with HPs confused strategy than webos.

Apple and Google would lost have lost tons of money if they had aborted before their products could take off.

Apple and Google stuck with their products because they could be sold profitably from the jump. The G1 sold one million devices in six months on one carrier at their target price point. The Hero sold great. the Droid...well, 'nuff said. Every Apple mobile product sold at a profit from the jump.

And what's more, they each had ecosystems THEY OWNED to reap additional profits from.

HP didn't sell the devices in any volume at profit price points. They didn't have a backend to make up the difference. They didn't own any part of the ecosystem except for the actual app catalog.

Wrong. HP lost $332 million on webos alone. It's in in their earning report. And those numbers were from before they cancelled devices as the earnings call is like 17 days after the quarter actually ends. I know people don't like to hear the truth but time to face facts. Webos burned money for palm and forced them to get sold and it was burning money for HP too.

Apple didn't have to abort much recently because their recent products sell.

Google aborts stuff all the time like google buzz. And google isn't making a truck load off of android. But Google is also in a completely different position Google is has huge cash reserves and HP didn't. In fact they spent 80% of their buying autonomy. Google could afford losses. HP couldn't.

Let's go ahead and start a collection box. The community can purchase it and manage it where it needs to go.

HP's asking price is prolly totally unreasonable for the purpose of killing it with them there rumors of adapting WM8 tablets.

Seriously? Are you _actually_ proposing a community-based effort to purchase webOS? How many active members of the community do you think there are? However many that is, divide it into $1 billion minimum, and see what you come up with. I'll bet it's something more than the typical webOS fan is willing to pay to see the platform--what, survive? No, that's not it. Without more money backing the platform, the best it could hope to do in this fantastical scenario is continue to limp along with a tiny fraction of the apps that make a smartphone or tablet platform attractive in the first place.

Please, tell me you're joking.

I would be willing to donate 500 bucks.. The question is, how many of us are willing to donate?

Let's think this through, If Precentral took in money from all of it's supporters and bought WebOS then:

A - the company keeps going
B - we all have a small share in a platform we want to see succeed.
plus
C - Since were all avid hard core fans, I have to think that's some good people to have behind a device..

Now again, the question comes as to how many of us are there, and how much would everyone be willing to pay? We don't need to raise 1 billion, just need to raise enough to get a loan.. or something like that... politics

I will throw in $1K as a voting member

LOL.

I never knew it was THAT easy. Silly HP went on to spend so much more money trying to build an ecosystem when all they needed was a few hard core fans donating a few bucks. Who needs channel partners, and the whole nine when you've got a handfull of "hard core fans" willing to take out a loan?

you guys are living in a fantasy world.

It's not just about buying it. Where's your operating capital to run the company after you buy it. Where the $300 million plus it cost you're going to lose per quarter over the one billion just to run the status quo webos. Then where's the millions needed to R&D devices people will actually buy. Where's the hundreds of millions to pay real companies, not just small developers, but netflix, hulu, etc to make an app for your platform because you're dead in the water without any apps? And honestly i considering how wrong people on this site have been about the products put out by webos so far there isn't a chance in **** i'd trust them with any of my money. This the community that thought the Veer was perfectly fine. Not everyone obviously but enough. No offense but this is a site of people that blindly love webos. That's fine but it doesn't lend itself to rational business thinking.

Yes, that's completely right - without a huge company to back it webOS is DEAD. You'd be better off getting a team together to develop your own fork of Android that would introduce the webOS features that you love most...

seriously. like skin the damn thing. But don't clone the icons and be all obvious. but anyways even more the being "big" the company has to be willing to take billions in losses over at least two years i'd bet. I mean they'd still need new devices. Ones that hopefully, unlike samsung, didn't steal tech from ipad 2. And what are they gonna have to give up to get any carrier to buy the devices?

You make it sound like you need a business and capital to make webOS successful. That's just silly. All webOS needs to be a success is webOS.

For those interested in supporting this cause, send your donations to me. You've tried the big company with channel partners and failed. Now its time to try a nobody who has exactly zero channel partners. :-)

lol. That's my bad. I was totally wrong. You just need webos and some mermaid tears and you're all good. 4 million in sales in 3 days...wait...nevermind wrong phone.

Where it's 'just' a matter of getting all the apps in the catalog and get going with this great OS.

Sorry to say that this show its totally over. Move along.

I agree completely, and it's unfortunate because I really liked webOS and was willing to stay with it in spite of hardware issues and some imperfections.

It's time to move on - to iOS, WP, or Android. I surmise none of those three will pull the plug and leave us in a lurch like HP did.

My money is on Apple buying webos. If for no other reason than the patents. Apple would hold a patent for the smartphone. Imagine how many people they would sue. It would make Windows kickbacks from Android look small.

i would laugh my **** off it apple bought it, copied webos multitasking and that's it.

Mostly cause i'd find it funny to hear what the apple hating crowd would say. I don't hate anyone so i find that sort of fanaticism amusing. But they are so angry. mad at android, apple, microsoft, hp, lol.

"i would laugh my **** off it apple bought it, copied webos multitasking and that's it."

no it wouldnt be. they would also announce that THEY invented cards multitasking, and that it is "magical" :)

...and then apple crowd will rejoice and say how awesome it is!

would be funny as **** to me.

I would not laugh. If Apple gets a hold of the Palm patent portfolio you can kiss any non-iOS smartphone goodbye - bend over and prepared to receive a giant apple in the rear.

Apple will sue every other competitor into oblivion.

true, true...

Apple might have bought Palm last year for the patents - but Palm doesn't exist anymore.

webos and any patents Palm brought into HP are distinct products.
Apple wont't buy webos. They don't need it and many of its strengths and technologies are anathema to Apple (way too open and standard).
If Apple want to buy some patents from HP or anybody else they can do so without even talking about webos.

LOL.

Remember when HP was releasing WebOS devices like the Veer and going with multiple soft/hard launches and ANY criticism of their business acumen was met with a smug "I think the world's largest technology knows what they're doing moreso than you, troll!"?

Now, HP is the embodiment of evil and you actually get banned and/or censored for supporting their decisions! (like stopping the WebOS experiment when it was clear they couldn't sell devices at a profit and had no backend to make up the difference).

The fact is, they were the only ones of the original prospective purchasers willing to even TRY building a wide range of devices and any sort of ecosystem around it (e.g. HP Movie Store, Pivot, etc.). These public rejections from HTC and Samsung are proof positive of that.

It's over. Thank HP for extending the pipe dream even this far.

it's pretty much the same people doing that here for two years. First saying everything was perfect,then saying soft launch, then blaming best buy, then blaming at&t reps, blaming Apple, then blaming HP. Should have been complaining to palm and hp long ago instead of trying to hijack Laptop mag polls. That right there is the product of massive delusion.

That was the funniest thing. All the people screaming that they put a useless poll on the front page like it mattered. Thinking that if you only one a laptop mag poll saying your phone was the best even when it hadn't actually been released the world would stand up and take notice and sales would go through the roof. lol.

Pretty lame generalizations. Sorry to be blunt, but that is true.

Did you who are crowing about how smart you are actually even read the forums. Some were blithely optimistic, no denying that. many that I saw was cautiously optimistic, some were even pessimistic but hopeful.

Doubt me? Do a search on the forums and see for yourself.

I was in the forums, thanks. I was banned specifically for criticizing HP's decisions too much...you know, when it mattered?

All I read was how they had scale and the next Gen of devices ready to go and Netflix was coming and they were going to clean up with back to school pricing and they knew best....

Yeah...

you're a bit crazy if you're denying all the koolaid drinking, blaming sales reps, people saying the touch pad was not too thick, that they didn't need apps, that having flash negated the need for apps, that "it was a soft launch" for the veer and touchpad, that small phones were in. Mods banning people for daring to question HP's business plan, questioning Leo well before it was the fad, and moving threads because they didn't like the mention of apple or android? Come on.

i'd ask, did you read the forums? Clearly you only read what you wanted to believe.

EXACTLY. We can talk "the competition" now because without that, there's nothing else to generate page hits! So much for the ethics of boosting for WebOS at all costs.

It's fine to slam HP and say "F---- HP" all day long...now that it doesn't matter. But when it did and the criticism was way more reasonable and specific...BAN.

The launch price of the Touchpad was a great idea....until it failed, then it was the worst.

The stands around here are as pliable as they are laughable.

I don't know, it seems to me that the mods still move farewell posts into the "General Complaints" wasteland, lock threads that discuss alternatives to WebOS (read: products that still have a future), and cast off Android on Touchpad threads into merged ****

yeah i'm not saying it's stopped. i don't really care about the fairwell threads. But i didn't i think it was a valid discussion to have if the touchpad needed a front facing camera, a better camera, needed to be thinner, and specifically where were the big name launch apps? Those were things needed to compete. But when that stuff was brought up that stuff got deleted. And people that wanted to discuss is the veer the right product launch were stomped down. i just think that was the exactly right question to be asking at that time.

Wow. Just wow. I must have been looking at different forums or something.

No, I stand by my comments. There were so many "What Palm (later HP) needs to do..." threads posted over the last 2 years you had to be blind to miss them. Some of them were very cogent, some of them were laughable, but the abundance of them shows that many had a realistic view of the issues with the platform.

Must of vitriol (and the bans) directed toward negative comments was related to the rude and disrespectful tone of the posts, not the content. Just look a the tone of the responses to my original post.

It is obvious that if you believe otherwise you did NOT search the forums.Pick those you feel were the most biased in favor of Palm and I'll find THEIR criticisms of Palm in the forums. And I doubt they were banned.

We all need to "keep it real".

OK, I'll bite:

hparsons
ilovedessert
Cantaffordit
DeCorvett
NuttyBunny

Can you find anything negative posted by the above posters prior to HP killing WebOS? Or is it just all nonsense about "size and scale," and "sales are just fine," or maybe jibberish about "the HP Way?"

I wonder where HParsons is ever since the "naysayers" were proven right. For about two years, every one of his posts took a jab at people who were, of course, eventually right in the end.

I miss HParsons and his ability to hone in on the most irrelevant word in your post and force you to argue about the meaning of that word.

Tee hee. Loved him getting carte blanche to personally insult people and start arguments, but how it was tolerated because he was doing it FOR WebOS. Could use a good dose of him for extra comedy now.

100% true. Hparsons had a green light to insult people. One guy would go behind his posts, delete anything after it then close threads. I guess he always wanted Hparsons point to be last. lol. but hey it is what it is.

So true. The classic for me was when he was arguing that there was no calendar issue in webOS AFTER the calendar issue was acknowledged by Palm/HP. I had to break out the popcorn to fully enjoy that show. :-)

Why would anyone rag on HP until their plan was completely unfolded? Once it did, there wasn't enough time to complain until they killed it. (BTW- don't change the terms of the discussion. It is about criticism of HP and/or Palm related to their mobile efforts by the so-called 'kool-aid' drinkers who never said anything negative)

I actually have a job so I'll post an example of them to make a point and will add more as I have time: let's start with the second name on your list (a very strong webOS supporter).

from 4/1/2011:

Hi,
It all depends on how much and how hard HP wants to push webOS and how well they do it...after all Palm's commercials were dreadful!

Was he supposed to rant on for 20 posts about how bad the commercials were? I guess unless one includes lots of "sux" and 'epic fails' and other negative superlatives, it doesn't count as criticism for some of us.

Also, it's silly to compare a rant about HP (a corporation) or King Leo (who doesn't so far as I know haunt the forums) to directing a comment against an individual posting in the forums in an insulting or provocative manner.

You may not like the president or your boss, and may share that over drinks with your buddies, but it is considered bad form to do that directly to a person's face unless there was extreme provocation. I know we live a different world, but maybe that is not a good thing. I love the 'electronic courage' of people who feel free from the rules of normal social interaction when the can hide behind a keyboard.

Finally (jerrydan3), the infractions for rude behavior were issued to both sides of these debates, so to wear the persecution mantle as though you were being persecuted 'just for being honest' is at best disingenuous and at worst a blatant falsehood.

Your serve

"Why would anyone rag on HP until their plan was completely unfolded?"

Don't know how to say this any gentler or less provocative, but this might be the dimmest proposition I've read in this thread.

Why would anyone WAIT until it's too late?

If you saw someone embezzling funds from a business you own, would you wait to see how it plays out?

I mean, come on. If you see something going wrong, you call it out and correct it or call for someone else to if you cannot. Derek had the nerve to write a lengthy rant after the face by paraphrasing the same criticism of the TP launch and spec, HP Veer, and release strategy that were FORBIDDEN from being posted in the forums just days prior. Blatantly stupid moves that the non-Kool Aid drinkers could see going wrong well in advance, but they were forcibly silenced.

There's no need to "compare" rants against Leo. They're the SAME rants, but you're only allowed to make them now that HP has given up. If they were magically to start up again with a new board of directors and CEO making the same mistakes, we'd be forbidden from criticizing them at length.

Finally, if you think infractions were issued to "both sides", then please find ONE person who was pro-HP that was banned from these boards by being "rude and disrespectful" in defending the company. I can find plenty who were banned for criticizing the company. You go find ONE on the other side who was banned or drop this insulting equivocation.

Go find that and add that person to your list

Should I do your work for you? I've already posted two examples. But since you have your mind made up that there is a conspiracy going on, why bother with more?

HP had a plan that they didn't even execute on. So everything until they deploy the plan is just opinion. As the details cam out there was plenty of criticism in the forums... or did you miss the criticism on the Veer when it was ANNOUNCED? Or on the specs of the Touchpad? Not everyone, but plenty enough to argue against a "vast right-wing (or left wing) conspiracy"

I've had infractions issued for debating with people on the webOS side. And I've posted against Palm and HP for the ubiquitous "in the coming months", leading with an unpopular form factor, lengthy delays, and indecision. And many others have too. Do the search and check the dates, it's not that hard.

No critical views of the strategy were forbidden, you are just flat out incorrect on that count.

Additionally, don't substitute infractions for "bans". Nice sleight of hand, but different. The bans come only after multiple infractions.

Show me the posts that were flagged merely for questioning strategy and NOT for directing that criticism at an opposing posters intelligence, integrity, or honesty.

The rude and disrespectful tone? Surely you jest.

There's a "F--- HP" comment in every other main page thread. Leo Apotheker has been personally insulted (BY THE EDITORS OF THE SITE, NO LESS) so often, I lost count. Sexist comments toward Meg Whitman's weight and looks? Yup.

And that's the joke. No one ever had a problem with rude, disrespectful behavior. No one ever had a problem with "trolling". No one ever had a problem with starting fights.

As long as these things were done in service of WebOS and cheerleading it, that is.

Now, it's tolerated and encouraged as long as you direct your vitriol at HP - the same company who had to be defended at all costs a few months back. It's pure hypocrisy and cowardice.

This. This! THIS!

that was actually funny as **** too. Because the very day before it would have got you banned then 1 day later there's an editors post full of anger. I just think it's funny that one day it's ban worthy but nobody could say anything about it then because when the criticism came it came from those actually running the site and you can't exactly ban them.

edit: I can't say H E double hockey sticks above? i can't believe they are censoring that word.

Stand by the comments. Stand over the comments. Stand on the comments. They are still wrong.

The forums are full of threads closed after a few posts or merged because some decided they didn't like the topic. i saw tons of tablet discussions about touchpads move out of the touchpad forum, closed, or merged into complaints because somebody didn't want to hear criticism. Other handhelds had everything slammed into a single thread just. I remember one time when every thread mentioning apple in anyway in comparing an apple product to the touchpad was deleted or sent to the same same thread. And it was far from just moving "rude speech" it was about moving any speech that said that what hp was doing was falling short. And that kind of head in the sand attitude is why they struggled for sales.

That's easy. Start your own website. Why do people whine about why they are not allowed to be on a site devoted to enthusiasts of a particular platform. And I do agree with you, that some of the moderating has been aggressive. But... IT IS THEIR FORUM.

If you go into a McDonalds and start passing out coupons for Burger King, you'll be asked to leave. If you mention the name Burger King, nobody much cares.

Any Speech? I posted this criticism just after the 'think beyond' event (there was more, but this is sufficient sample... it was not banned:

1) They needed a different form factor to erase the bad taste of the older Pre's from the public memory. Instead, they choose the two LEAST successful form factors. If they plan to roll out phones "every 2 months", why lead with these two? Let the Pre 2 hold the portrait lovers until you have other styles in the market.

Finally, if you REALLY believe that the attitude of ANYONE in these forums influenced HP policy, so that a collection of posts in here caused them to put their 'head in the sand', you are really grasping for for rhetorical straws.

Well... the soft-launches and the Veer were no error per se. The problem was pricing, and the timing (for example if all devices would have been out two months earlier and priced more competitivly a lot of things would look better).

Even the strategy that they finally tried wouldn't have been THAT bad (but still far from good^^) if they had sticked with webOS and just tried it harder with the next product launch and steadily built up consumer and developer-awareness, instead of killing the Touchpad after 40 days and the Pre 3 even before it got released.

i think the problem with the veer is the veer.

of course it is the veer. It is idiotic experiment, it always was. And yet another argument against HPalm leadership, and not webOS per se.

But what I know, webOS is worst thing ever, isn't it, because it "didn't sell"

...can I buy just webOS? Can I install it on HTC hardware? Can I make my carrier to offer it?

Etc...

From Amazon's perspective i just don't see why you'd want to spend money for an OS, to build out an ecosystem and make hardware for it to work on just to get what you already have, a working Amazon ereader. YOu spend a billion, a billion 5 for it plus just to do what you're already doing?

From a user perspective no sure webos users would like the outcome. Amazon makes an ereader basically. It doesn't make phones. And it's ereader is skinned. i'd bet if amazon bought it all you'd get is a skinned version of webos turned into merely an amazon ereader. Not a full featured tablet, no phones. Not sure how happy that would make anyone. It may look good now but later it may seem horrible to have Amazon buy webos.

Also, they'd go from their custom browser which is fast and offloads all processing to the bare bones WebOS browser which has memory leaks all over the place.

TOTALLY worth a billion to put out the exact same problem! And please no carping about avoiding royalties to Microsoft. Any device using ActiveSync for Exchange email has to pay the M$ piper. Not just Android. Apple pays. RIM pays. Amazon would too.

yeah people pay licensing cause if they don't people stop buying their stuff. It's a win from their perspective.

Regardless it's gonna cost a billion just for the company and that's if HP is willing to unload it at a loss. They could just sit on it just cause. HP was burning $332 mill a quarter and growing according to them. So you're talking on the low end 1 bill to buy, 332 bill per quarter to run poorly. So by like next june the cost is getting close to two billion just to run. And it's not like they'll have any devices out by then.

Consider they just launced ereaders. I don't see them cannabilizing those products on the hope of a new platform that already had a tiny following. Companies do dumb stuff. **** buying palm was probably one of them just like Sprint buying nextel, AOL buying Time Warner and HP buying Compaq but i just doubt Amazon is that dumb right now.

if they did i'd at least hope they they'd license it like Microsoft does wp7 that way you'd at least have tons of form factors growing market share. But then again, considering the past who would gamble on making licensed hardware? just don't know.

Its not over until the fat lady sings. How much does Meg weigh?

When Palm was being sold, there were four companies that made acquisition offers. There was one company other than HP ("Company C") that came very close to acquiring Palm. Now it doesn't appear that any company is interested. This situation is much worse.

It was RIM. You can see how that would've turned out. When are those QNX phones coming again?....

Seems like RIM should be a buyer of webOS then. The Pre 3s are already on the market. WebOS has a huge headstart over their QNX stuff.

Does RIM really have anything as good that is ready to go like webOS? I haven't seen it.

Yeah...the Playbook needs to be WebOS-ier. That's why they had to slash prices on their tablet too.

Sure.

Huge? not really sure how huge a start it is. And why buy an O.S. when you already have one? There's no value added by webos outside of the people that like it already.

Their tablet was remarkably webOS-like...

The tablet at least came before the Touchpad, even if it was missing email...

The Veer would've come anyway since it was from Palm.

Where is that Pre3 phone coming again?

So much heartbreak!!! Why must the Mobile OS gods be so unjust?!? Whhhyyyyy?!?!?!!

Because rather than playing the cards it was dealt, webOS complained about having too many.

While there may have been some advantages earlier on, those have pretty much been squandered. The more HP putters around, the more expensive a 'third act' will be for anyone.

And don't forget, as the Facebook API fiasco showed, there is a lot of 'behind-the-scenes' combat going on. Right now, there is NO leverage held by anything webOS related. Any consideration from Apple or Google will translate into value. What can HP/Palm give you in the way of concessions to make it worth the gamble?

More than likely, HP will wait until there absolutely no hope and THEN come out with a sob story about how they wanted to do something... but time and circumstances conspired against them. And that, sadly, will be the end.

I truly hope not, but I've seen this show before. Leo gets thrown under the bus, everyone else runs for political cover, and they do what they were planning to anyway.

C

The past webOS hardware has been pretty ******, but even with the past hardware, the main issue of its failure has been the vertical slider. Sure there's a niche group that loves it, but for the masses, and success of webOS, you need to abandon the physical keyboard on your flagship phone. End of story/rant

btw, I still hate my new Android device!

...I'd hate my Android device much less so, if it had a vertical slider.

SEriously? What is so bad about vertical sliders? Them being not so popular? But I was asking, what is WRONG with them, and never EVER heard back any response, what is so wrong about having that freaking keyboard available.

Maybe someone, someday will answer me.

Nothing. Just look at all of the hugely successful vertical sliders from the past two years such as....

....

.....

....the Droid Pr....nope......

...The Blackberry Tor....nope.....

The Dell Venue Pr.....nope.....

.....uhh.......?