McKinney: webOS to be integrated with Windows on PCs | webOS Nation

McKinney: webOS to be integrated with Windows on PCs 58

by Derek Kessler Mon, 14 Feb 2011 9:33 pm EST

HP made kind of a big point out of their plans for webOS beyond the smartphone and tablet during last week’s Think Beyond event, but it was rather unclear to us and everybody else sitting in the audience how exactly HP planned to bring webOS to the desktop (and printers). Brier Dudley of the Seattle Times sat down with HP CTO Phil McKinney to chat about that and more, and McKinney did open up the bag of tricks a little bit more.

There’s been plenty of confusion about how exactly webOS would find its way onto desktop and laptop machines. McKinney cleared that up: this won’t be webOS running in some sort of virtualization mode: HP intends for you to be able to run apps in “an integrated webOS experience” and that you’ll be able to “develop you webOS app that’ll run on your phone, your slate, and your PC.” Sounds slick, eh?

Considering that the Enyo preview and Think Beyond demo took place inside the HTML5-compliant Google Chrome browser, running webOS apps in some sort of web-tech environment for the desktop doesn’t seem that far fetched.

McKinney was careful to emphasize that HP’s relationship with Microsoft hasn’t changed. Much. They’re going to continue to ship Windows desktops and laptops for the foreseeable future, and are even working with Microsoft on making Windows 8 some sort of awesome. But when it comes to mobility, HP is all in with webOS, and devices like the HP Slate 500 aren’t going to happen in the future.

Source: Seattle Times


I run all Linux systems at home (and on current and future phones), what are my prospects on this "webOS for PC"?

I am in the same boat as you, but if it is some kind of web technology (browser like). they will have a Linux version, and a mac version. HP is pretty globally minded in that sense.

Well, webOS is based on a Linux kernel so theoretically it might actually be easier to integrate it with a Linux PC. But I doubt HP would devote any resources to it.

Technologically it should be fairly easy.
But I don't see HP bothering with it - because they are not in the business of selling Linux (let alone Mac) desktops. (sure they sell plenty of Linux servers - but that doesn't help here)

They sell windows desktops - and that's where they will invest money for the integration.

That alone would not be much of a problem. No doubt a project will form to implement a Linux version. And large parts of the webos system is already open software (webkit, javascript engines, Linux kernel, etc...).

So the question will be whether HP will try to block a re-implementation of the Enyo environment. They might even be cool with that. Extra devs that eventually produce more apps for webos.

Ok. Well right now there's a lot of angry people and I'm starting to wonder if webOS will even get to that point. A lot of techies are now calling WP7 a strong competitor to android and iOS while webOS gets lost in the hemisphere. Again.

A lot people are angry because HP has thus far done a poor job of getting new hardware and software into our hands. But it they stay on schedule and actually put out webOS 2 hardware by summer, a lot of those bad feelings might start to dissipate. I for example am pretty pissed right now that I can't get webOS 2 for my Pre Minus. But I'm still stuck on Sprint until June and I've yet to see an Android or WP7 phone for which I would want to extend my contract. If the Pre 3 comes out on Sprint, I'd be equally likely to get it, an Android phone, or move to another carrier. I don't see myself carrying a grudge for three months so who knows?

IMHO, people are angry because they had lots of unrealistic expectations and have made lots of assumptions about the Feb 9th announcement that weren't based on facts. When their fantasy didn't match reality, they got pissed. People expected that phones would be available for purchase immediately even though nothing had been submitted to the FCC. People assumed the Pre3 was only going to be on Verizon and AT&T based on commented out code that was more likely the result of cut-n-pasting the entry for the Pre2 on Palm's website. For crying out loud, there are people who are complaining about the Veer's battery life who haven't even touched the damn thing.

I'm with you regarding unrealistic expectations (getting good mobile devices designed, developed, prototyped, tested, certified, manufactured and sold to carriers takes time) - but HP is responsible for overhyping the event. And reneging on 2.x upgrades (which also shoots them in the foot regarding devs having a viable platform to develop for atm).

Totally agree re the silly claims of how Veer and Pre and TouchPad will all fail due to stuff nobody has hard info on. And beaten by fabled competitors devices that haven't arrived yet either.

Which unrealistic expectations? The expectation that HP wouldn't announce any hardware that wasn't "ready to ship" "within weeks?" Now how on earth could we have gotten that impression?

The unrealistic expectation that Feb. 9th was the culmination of the coming, coming, coming months we'd been told to wait for webOS 2 on our legacy hardware? Silly users, why would you think a thing like that?

Yeah, I'm still a tad disgruntled here. However, I also find myself in the same boat with DarthRepublican. I have yet to see a different phone/OS combo emerge that compels me to leave webOS. I had to work with a user's Droid X yesterday. It was fast, and had a very shiny screen and sleek form factor. But I would rather gnaw my own hand off at the wrist* than have to peck my way through Android on a daily basis. Bleah.

*hyperbole, but only slightly

While a lot of the early reviews of WP7 were positive re UI and technical merits and gave it credit as a fresh start for MS - I don't see "a lot" (any actually) calling it a "strong competitor to android and iOS". What I see are remarks like "lacklustre", "disappointing", "moderate" etc...

There's a reason MS is doing a close cooperation with Nokia - which will no doubt piss off it's current launch partners. This is a marriage between 2 desperate partners. Nokia struggles to keep its position in the mobile market while MS needs to get in.

They need to release the Pre 3 ASAP and then a slab in the summer to compete with iphone5.

edit: That was off topic. I read the article and it seems like a great concept. I'm sure HP's vision is for webOS to eventually replace windows. Only Phil won't bluntly admit it.

This kind of remark ("need to release the Pre 3 ASAP") always baffles me.

Does anybody actually believe that Palm before and now HP have devices read in warehouses, but decided to let them ripen their a bit? ;-)

Why would a company interested in making money release *after* it's *possible*.

HP would probably love to sell their machines with their own OS - but that's not a realistic short to medium term plan.

This is about providing a consistent environment and having a very wide app platform ASAP.

Id be curious to see how it works out. The card thing is ideal for phones and tablets but seems like it would be cumbersome on a netbook or laptop let alone a desktop

I keep thinking of Dell's convertible netbook/slate. Maybe it might be useful to have a convertible slate with two processors (an Intel compatible and a mobile processor), dual OSes and shared memory. When the in laptop mode, the mobileOS sleeps and the desktopOS awakens. Flip the screen and put it into slate mode and the desktopOS sleeps while the mobileOS wakes up. It would be complex and kludgy but as technology advances, it might become quite doable.

More likely however, webOS would likely be an ideal skin for HP Touchsmart PCs which tend suck with the traditional Windows 7 UI.

yeah the whole webos skin idea is wheres its at. thats been an image in my head ever since they said webos scales awesomely to any screen size. i would reallllly love to have a touchscreen tv that i have duel-monitored to my pc that has a webos skin running on it to give a nice touch interface. preferably at 3840x2160 rez :D RDY set GO HP!

Seems to me card sized apps are about the perfect size to use as "widgets." Bring something like Mac OSX's dashboard to Windows (but syncs with the cloud/your phone).

I believe most people here misunderstand what this is about.

webos has several aspects and layers. To a pure webos app it's just a matter of having the right APIs on top of a webkit/javascript/enyo engine.

You can have that environment on a desktop computer (most of it is already there - called a browser).
This will have nothing to do with the card interface. The cards are a way to manage your apps on a mobile device - a desktop already has it's own window manager for that (Explorer shell on windows). Instead of tapping with fingers you can click with a mouse (though modern monitors might also provide extra touch options).

Apps including PDK components would not work (these are compiled for ARM processors instead of intel - this would need a extra virtualization/emulation layer). But devs could even compile 2 versions of their PDK components - 1 for mobile ARM processors and 1 for Intel/ARM based desktop systems.

I believe the idea is that a HP desktop (windows) computer comes with a pre-installed webos environment that allows you to run apps from the app catalog. It *won't* make your desktop computer into a big mobile devices with cards and gestures. Using touch and gestures on a phone is great but sucks on a desktop system.
You get more precision with a mouse and stretching your hand to the monitor in front of you is awkward and strenuous. In other words - what you know as a card on your Pre is otherwise known as a window on your desktop.

The beauty for HP is that they can explode the number of target systems where catalog apps can run fairly quickly - which they in turn will use as a Big Number to impress devs with.

If you have the Chrome browser installed- please notice that Google already has a kind of app store there (even though those apps are mostly glorified Bookmarks).

Apple did the same thing by bringing it's app store to Mac systems. And HP wants to be more like Apple - i.e. having a range of interconnected, co-dependent high-margin products.

Perhaps an HP TouchSmart running WebOS. Of course with the GESTURE AREA!!!

I am running iMac with Mac OS 10.6.6 and I would not get webOs for desktop, on pad and phones.

huh? That doesn't even make sense. You don't want to use webOS at all? Or you'd use it on pad and phones, but not desktop? Or... it just doesn't make sense.

Congratulations on your OS version though, we're all proud of you, thanks for telling us.

I haven't put much thought into how WebOS would work on a PC, but some thoughts do come to mind after reading this post. What if WebOS runs as a program on Windows? It could replace the browser, maybe. That way you can run WebOS or Windows. No never mind, that wouldn't work so well. Why run an OS on top of an OS? I'm just not sure yet.

There is a lot of confusion in what comprises an OS. In this case they are talking about bringing the application framework to Windows, not running the OS.

Anything written against Mojo or Enyo is largely HTML / CSS / JS and runs on WebKit, which is the rendering engine for a lot of the popular web browsers (most notable Safari and Chrome). That should Just Work.

The more tricky part would be making the same system API available, but Palm smartly used existing software, much of which already runs on Windows. For example, applications talk to each other through D-Bus, movies and music are decoded using GStreamer and audio is played with PulseAudio.

ok from what he is saying they are going to bumdle an app the runs on your pc kinda like a webrowser. so when you want to multitask just create different tabs as you do on your browser right now. i think it will be simple elegant and even let have access to all of your cloud files and apps. which is very very nice with huge potentials~!

At least we have Windows 8 to look forward to from HP!

Why don't they just build an entire operating system? I guess they probably have a deal with Microsoft, but still..

Why would you want them to build an entire PC operating system? Yes, I would love to have access to my webOS data and apps on my PC, but at the same time, sometimes I need actual desktop applications as well.

Running both simultaneously would be much better as far as I'm concerned.

If you don't need that, then just stick to the Touchpad.

WebOS already is an entire operating system. But that doesn't mean it has the application base that a multi-decade market leader has, so expecting it to displace Windows isn't a realistic short term goal.

cuz its a ridiculously costly endeavour. they just paid 1.2 billion for just a mobile OS.

Man, that reporter was annoying... kept trying to emphasize the imaginary break up between HP Microsoft and HP.

HP never said they had plans to stop making windows computers so why asl: "sounds like a shift in your PC business to WebOS..." , "Why didn't you just tell Microsoft what kind of operating system you wanted?" , "Did you opt for your own operating system because of the cost or technical limitations of Windows?"

was the reporter even listening to what was being said?

sorry for the rant but, man that was painful to read.

anyway, webOS on PCs!!!!

Three words: Touch To Share. *drool*

Anyway, the best way to leverage their position in the PC market would be to bundle their HP PCs with a WebOS application. The PC will also have touch2share tech.

You'll log into the app with your palm profile.

The app will basically resemble the tablet version of the OS. It will allow you to manage any of your phones cloud content and run any apps purchased in your palm profile.

A simple idea really, but could significantly expand the webOS userbase rapidly.

couldnt agree more man....

I think the app should be less of a single window and more something like mac OSX's dashboard (card/webos apps are already "widget" sized)

So WebOS apps running on Windows? Or WebOS running on Windows?

i guess its kind of a hybrid... you sign into your profile and bam all of your apps and cloud files show up. If u do a search for "enyo" which is the new webos dev kit basically all they do is run apps over google chrome and works just like webos but with a mouse -=)

its real simple and would take up so lil processing in your pc most people would love it.

It would be like itunes but for the entire OS, but unlike itunes i don't see the webos system bogging down windows at all.

The former I'm sure.

Just imagine you have a windows computer. Now imagine having installed the Chrome browser.
Now imagine an enyo plugin in Chrome. Then strip away the Chrome menu and buttons. Then call it "HP webos" instead of Chrome. Finally connect that with your webos profile and add some buttons that allow mouse clicks instead of gestures.

Voila - you have most of what you need to have webos apps on a desktop system. Chrome is based on a core browser engine called webkit (same goes for Safari BTW). Guess what webos uses as browser engine - right - webkit (originally derived from a Linux engine called KHTML).

Thats really cool stuff but. Really HP we need a freaking new phone now!! Thats the bottom line right now not your so called road map. Come on now!!

I hope they use it instead of the touchsmart software they put on the touchsmart all in one pcs.

This could be cool in a couple of ways. Instant on to webOS could be pretty useful. Also they could just make all your apps available through a WebKit browser or as widgets.

"HP is all in with WebOS" I don't think so. They are all in as long as it involves the potential for selling tablets. If they were all in for Mobility, we'd have had new phones announced at CES and in our greedy hands now. As it is, in the phone world, HP has killed Palm. They are trying to attack Apple from the other direction. Build an interface for your PC that coordinates with your tablet. But when the Pre3 comes out after Labor Day, it'll sell less than 100,000 units. 40% will be returned because the buyers will see they got tech that's almost 2 years old. Pre3 will be lucky to still be alive by Christmas.

(and yes, I'm moving to Android).

"tech that's almost 2 years old"?

Welcome to our dimension - what's the name of yours? Must be a bit ahead because in our dimension mobile phones didn't have 1.4 GHz CPUs, easy multi-tasking with nice gestures or screens with 800x480 resolutions 2 years ago. Heck - they didn't have that last year - or - in fact - now.

What's that 100k number based on? Why not 50k? Why not just 123? I mean you're obviously just making numbers up. Same goes for the 40% - why hesitate - let's say 94% will be returned. ;-)

And why is it better to announce the Pre3 etc... at CES and have it come out in summer? It comes out in summer either way.

Unlike you I don't know the future in this dimension we call boringly "reality" and I don't know whether webos will be seen as success or failure in 2013. But we do know a few things about the past. And sadly - Palm was dying and tragically didn't have the resources left to sufficiently push webos. It's possible that HP ruins webos over time - we'll see. But - for now - they saved it from bankruptcy.

The stakes for the new WebOS products are extremely high. The tablet market continues to be dominated by Apple's iPad, while HP's pre-Palm attempts to tap the smartphone market barely registered a ripple.
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i'm not sure i totally get this but considering the different computing powers of, say a desktop vs a mobile phone, wouldn't the end user expect a different caliber of product for each. like i'd want a better app on a computer.

I tend to think that this could be more like a Google Chrome on steroids.


Read this and understand it and you might be worth an actual US Dollar.

It really doesn't look as good without Palm on there. I hope they make a quick decision to re-implement Palm. Even the devices are shaped to fit in ones hand, thus a palm device.

It is quite strange how both companies operate the same way. Very slow and indirect. It is likely something along the lines of every time they get customers from Palm they contract(as in consolidate) the company to another's.

Whats more strange is that these companies do not care if they go out of business. I don't see how they can feel as if their keep up and competing in any kind of way. The only answer (reference to the previous statement) is they believe their holding someone else customers up. Destroying the mindset of other companies individual consumers.

I would like to think they do care but sticking to a small future technology implementation, calling yourselves a smartphone as you watch your numbers dwindle and have customers telling you whats wrong and not listening as one company goes under is truly scary.

These companies need to be sanctioned immediately and shareholders and company operators removed. There's better business regulation in the NFL and it affects us less. With your most recent decisions and Palms as well and the way your operating. Such Windows and WebOS? Pardon the language but What the F*c%? Why would something that doesn't have anything that windows doesn't do want that on a full computer? lol.

There isn't one single thing it has to this point or even on 2.0. Were talking incomplete micro applications with flaws meets Windows. All I think your doing is trying to push Microsoft into saying were no longer freely licensing our software. Its true ridicule. At this point we see users blaming the flaws of WebOS on Windows and moving to Mac computers. I know Bill Gates doesn't want that, I'm near certain thats not how Steve Jobs wants to gain customers. It will end up being someone like myself job to split the Public as immigrants and unknowing people call you American companies. How doesn't someone sue your company! These are 70 mph fast balls over the plate. We can even prove at this point that someone has the right to reopen Palm under a new name, due to the quick decision to remove the name and have a tremendous American case at the nation supreme court on the existence of a company and their ideas. The purchase of such companies and how the contract of purchase must be specific to continue their operations. Also Palm itself would have likely been sued when it was operative, but at that point they would have had to select specific people. A company can not be sued, the people within a company can be mandated to leave if their actions are not fulfilled under corporate law. There really is truly one kind of CEO, shareholder and administration. The ideas produced within the companies are to be implemented in such away. If this kind of thing isn't a big deal I don't know what is. Making millions off of offset marketing other then making me looking better doesn't do much for anyone and only waste other times doing your jobs. I mean I can picture this guys life. Glasses nice but slightly off center, guests at the party, but no one knows anyone, a whole in the center of the dance floor, The wood carving is basic thought to be finished but from any standpoint unlacquored and just unpainted. By the time you are done messing around I will be able to prove a case that shows you have designed America in its early stages to make British, possible Germanic nobodies seem more cultured my allowing the immigration of people future generations to make believe you are more than what you are. Still the measure remains the same, you will always be measured against what is true.

Their introducing things such as Music Synergy, a low level standard (not be confused with a low non-standard) this is more directly within the company itself. Individually and slowly as if one portion of media entertainment or one application will place them back in to the market. Nokia has implemented hundreds of these with quality including all standards of technology. Apple and Google have done the same with regulated technologies. Cellular individuality its good in the R&D department and not even there. Remember you have introduced one thing. On a real measure the WebOS has accomplished no more then native integration of simple organizational skills of a 10 year old child who doesn't know any better, as we have seen text sizes, options, and protocol, incorrect and missing throughout the phone. In lames terms, your using technology already available and using pieces of it within a simple user interface. On rare occasions you have had one developer add something noteworthy. This is starting to sound like a truly corrupt company. Though what can we make of it? Employees who have watched a movie? A complete joke really. There is no mobphia in this, no big bad lawyers on your side.

Just a bunch of nobodies at the top who know how to use a lame form of filibustering their way through meetings with no purpose other than to stay in position. Its a basic tactic to make sure no one can interrupt. We have to be able to overcome this as a people. I mean theres no science to this. Your taking up more time on subjects during a time we need answers.

I don't know but I would think I'd be getting fired soon and if I was making that much money I wouldn't want to. This all comes back to proving this company is scary because they don't care whether it goes under and is forgotten for ever or their CEO and employees lose their own jobs.

I've been banned from the forum for posting truly significant information .

So I call on you small Palm people to Gather for what I am about to say! The following information has be arrived at and concluded for what will move the company forward. This is the key to all successful mobile device companies.

"Make everything a consumer would use and they'll learn how to use it your way."

Heade this words and spread them well, use your meaningless over-hype capabilities to help the world. Now Go (Copy and paste this on every forum) even send this up on stage and down to the lowest offices via paper airplane.

This is the posting it is from, Enjoy:

Th'is highly incorrect, the worst cell phones and best cell phones are definitely off. You could ask for some feedback but ultimately its going to be reoccurring sales by the same carriers and typically the same OS from that carrier. Palm number 2. I own one and we all know that based on the terrible company situations and their own decisions their products are not the best. Blackberry is way up there in the business world. Apple doesn't make the list get real. Nokia I agree with.

Palm isn't very consumer friendly as it is in the smartphone category. Microsoft not on the list? Android? These phones are about as friendly as it gets. All phones dial phone numbers with ease. The additional features are more accessible on most smartphones.

This is why their selling more and more. If their the same price you mind as well have the reservoir of additional features that all people end up using. The truth is why struggle to sync your email on small low-end device when you can do the same thing on a smartphone with better support? From a pure kind of ignorant consumer standpoint, which there are much less of in todays world. I believe when they move to a smartphone they start to see what they have trouble doing.

In Palm's case their trying to stay this unique transitional company it seems. That just doesn't work when you add some unique features and call them business. HP will move it forward but you can't based your company on what you perceive as a consumer, their nothing more then what you create. Blackberry users are going to learn how to use their devices, Why because they do anything you need them to do. Same with Apple and the same would be with Palm/HP. Make everything a consumer would use and they'll learn how to use it your way.

This is gonna be so cool. Answering text messages and Making calls on my PC seamlessly from my PC. Finishing activities started on my cell phone when I sit down at my PC, or taking whatever I was working on or viewing or playing with on my PC out with me on my mobile. Yay.

Wow! The interviewer with McKinney, and in fact, most of the rest of the readers just don't get what McKinney is saying.


McKinney states this over and over. It's about thinking differently. It's not about being an iPad killer or an Evo competitor. It's about creating an experience that users enjoy and through that experience creates an emotional connection.

Everything about the recent announcements says they're pouring money into this. They're hiring experienced and proven resources as well as innovators. They're starting to make the rounds to the tech shows. They're starting advertising (as much as I hate the commercial). There's interviews galore talking up WebOS. The hardware is solid, fast, and new.

The gap is software. The need the devs on board. That's what makes or breaks the experience right now. Users have to have their 4-7 day-to-day apps, plus enough selections in the catalog to be able to flip through regularly and feel like things are moving.

This is why they're not releasing yet. The veer can go soon. The veer will be a micro-transaction phone, on and off it 7 seconds for the most part. So e-mail, text, facebook, twitter, pics, and maybe a few minute youtube now and again. It can deal with 5-6000 apps that are currently out there.

The Pre3 and the TouchPad though are leisure and productivity devices. Longer transaction times, watching movies, playing games, long browsing sessions, editing documents. They need additional software options for users who spend more time tailoring the phones to their constant daily use. So they need time to get that software rolling and if not having it in place right at launch, at least have a strong committed timeline for when it will be in soon after launch.

I have my transition phone (Evo) and I am waiting to see if HP can pull it off. The webos is so much better and will see if the Pre 3 can speed up the OS. I will give it another chance because Android is clunky and i am stuck with the HTC interface which I could not stand after 2 weeks. Go HP!

Going to be hard to lure developers when they know they won't be selling anything for a while. It is a chicken & egg thing - I personally think HP laid an egg.

Wow! That has got to be the longest bunch of drivel I have ever read in this forum. You might want to cut back on those energy drinks pal!

More on topic, I just read an Engadget review on the Motorola Atrix and saw a TV ad for it tonight also. Seems Android is trying to merge phones with PC/laptops too (although the reviewed results weren't so good).

To me, it seems like these companies can't (or don't want to) make the phone "smarter" so they are trying to merge or link it to other, more smarter devices. That or their just trying to create a demand which requires us consumers to buy multiple devices which would inrease their revenue without really providing us much value!

All of these companies want to make money.

Apple has a good money making engine going.
Ipod is nice - but a competitor will beat that sooner or later. But then you have ITunes with that and nice integration with IPod and you don't want to loose your investment in 236 songs.
Then comes Ipod Touch and suddenly you find that you have even more stuff in ITunes - movies and episodes. And it all is designed to click together.
Then the IPhone - again deep integration with ITunes for all your music and movie needs - adding apps to the mix.
And most recently apps on Macs - again - more integration of devices in one closed 1-company environment. Now with all your music, movies and applications in one big basket.

Google goes a different route with slightly different techniques (more cloud-based from the start) - but in the end you can have your docs on Google and access it - together with Maps and Email from almost any device. Google is a bit different in that their focus is not on selling product but giving product away to sell ads.

MS desperately want to get in before their old business model evaporates (they are already post-peak) - but coming from a dominant position they have less to win and more to loose. The alliance with Nokia is the next step and outright buy-out of Nokia a likely future at this point.

And HP - after buying Palm - sees that it has now all the building blocks to emulate Apple and sell people their complete integrated package. Buy any 2 of our devices - find that you are locked in and want all the rest from us to. That's their wet dream anyway.

Er, no. It's not drivel. It was spot on. I don't care about the hardware specs as long as the device does what I want.

I don't need another game device. I want technology that will improve my quality of life. It looks like HP gets it.

so, a bit like Adobe AIR? Am I reading that right?

If so... fantastic!

Imagine this scenario: HP goes about their business of selling PCs/Printers to companies. They show these companies that the Servers & Desktop PC ( a printers) have integrated WebOS, which links uo beautifully with WebOS phones & tablets, available as package deal for these purchases.

This may be the main way HP hopes to spread WebOS. Us 'geeks' are all into getting our latest phones with WebOS but HP really is 'thinking beyond' their core PC/Printer business using Phones/Tablets as a supplementary + complemnatry business, all linked up by WebOS.

Exactly right. Any paradigm shift takes repeated messaging and some time to absorb. It won't be long before us 'geeks' are into integration too.

These guys are now like misguided children. Producing crap nobody wants and looking towards a future of what they think is "cool". HTC produces sweet hardware and Android, clunky and all, is getting better and better and better, every day. Now, Microsoft and Nokia are in a strategic alliance. That should have been Hpalm. They, like bratty children they are, are stomping their feet now with their version, and only their version. Nothing last week was "beyond". What's so "beyond" producing an actual PC with Webos? The last year and a half of palm has been a total failure, only followed by more and more of the same: crap nobody wants. Say and write what you will, but Hpalm's market share is the smallest it is ever been. And now: apple is rumoured to be making a 4" phone, a keyboard phone and a smaller cheaper phone. I guess "think beyond" meant to eulogize's Palm's past.