OpenMobile working with HP to make Android apps on webOS a reality | webOS Nation
 
 

OpenMobile working with HP to make Android apps on webOS a reality 137

by Derek Kessler Mon, 05 Mar 2012 8:06 pm EST

OpenMobile working with HP to make Android apps on webOS a reality

The biggest stumbling block for webOS, apart from mismanagement on the part of HP, has always been the relative lack of apps. Sure, there are standards there and the most basic needs are covered, but the "long tail" of apps, those apps that aren't the nine or ten that everybody's downloaded, that's where webOS has struggled for the whole time it's been around. The app situation isn't entirely responsible for the predicament webOS is in today, but it certainly played a big part in the vicious cycle (despite our protestations that Palm and HP do something about it).

Enter OpenMobile with a solution that aims to work around this problem by drafting Android into the webOS ecosystem. OpenMobile was showing off their Android Compatibility Layer product at CES, which grafts Android as a runtime into webOS, allowing users to run Android apps in webOS, complete with cards, notifications, and all that jazz.

At the time, the folks at OpenMobile had made the ACL work on Meego and webOS, but at the time they weren't involved with HP. Since then things have been pretty quiet on the OpenMobile front, but webOS Nation forum member Zukny reached out to OpenMobile to see if he could find out more information. Unexpectedly he got a call back from OpenMobile CEO Bob Angelo, who informed him that not only is HP interested in getting the OpenMobile ACL onto the HP TouchPad and Open webOS, the project has high-level support within the webOS organization.

Additionally, though OpenMobile's original business plan was to work with HP and other manufacturers to integrate the ACL into the product before it shipped, they've changed gears with webOS for obvious reasons and are exploring offering the ACL as a package you'll be able to purchase at what they're expecting to be a relatively low price point - though we're sure plenty of you would pay good money for access to a couple hundred thousand more apps over the couple thousand currently available to TouchPad owners.

We're pleased to hear that OpenMobile is encouraged by the enthusiasm the webOS community has expressed for their efforts and hope it won't be long before we're running Android apps without running Android.

137 Comments

wow!!!! lets hope. now all we'll need is the reverse, WebOS on other hardware.

it's simple ....customer demands ...customer gets ;) companies make money ...customers happy ;) :)

How much would you be willing to pay for access to all Android apps on your current webOS phone?

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to pay $50 for access to all those apps, on top of their individual prices on the Android market. I could probably be persuaded to go up to at least $100.

If you'll spend $100, why not spend $200 and just get an Android phone with contemporary hardware?

I plan on it, been waiting on the Galaxy Nexus for what seems like forever now. But I'd love to get more life out of my Pre2, and Android apps would make holding out for the GSIII much more palatable.

Because webOS is a highly superior operating system vs Android and if it had the apps to support it, I'd be happy to go back to a webOS phone (though a 4g version would be good). I'd love to have this thing on my Touchpad though :).

Oh well, there you go. Another app that can not be bought due to geo restrictions in the app cat. )(/¤%#%/ !!!!

No. No. No. Noo. no. No! NO! no. Noooooo!

This is BAD! VERY BAD! We don't want crappy ported JAVA apps on webOS, what we need is NATIVE ENYO APPS and MORE DEVELOPERS.

THIS IS NOT GOOD PEOPLE. WE WANT TO SUPPORT _OUR_ DEVELOPERS.

I agree in your fear, but realistically how much longer will we even have webOS app developers?

And an emulated android app will never match the performance of a similar app built specifically for webOS. I don't think webOS developers have too much to fear.

It is NOT an emulator when you have the source code --- it is called a port.

I did not say emulator in my post. I actually said "port" ..

I wasn't talking about you, I was responding to i2y4n.

By the way, have you received your Playbook yet?

Aha, yes I see that now.

Yeah, I've got the playbook.

I'll post some impressions later this week, along with a slideshow of unboxing. It's pretty nice.

*double post

How is it NOT an emulator? As far as I understand OpenMobile is making a program that takes Android apps and runs it through other operating systems.

It is an Android app made for Android software with Android hardware buttons running on webOS top of webOS.

Sounds too me like its exactly how a GameBoy emulator works.

OpenMobile --- much like Alien Dalvik and RIM (with the Playbook) --- grabs Google's Dalvik VM source code and ported it to different hardware platforms or OS kernels.

It would be stupid for OpenMobile to start from scratch (like people trying to write GameBoy emulators) --- when OpenMobile can LEGALLY download the official Google source code and just ported it to webos.

Okay, but its still running on emulated controls. It is not a straight port, its a little more complicated than that.

Are you telling me that just because the Amazon Kindle Fire doesn't have a home button that it is somehow classified differently? Or Sony Xperia Play with a bunch of hardware buttons that it should be classified differently?

There is nothing complicated. All android stuff have a linux kernel with Dalvik VM on top. The TouchPad has a linux kernel and OpenMobile is putting a ported Dalvik VM on top.

You know, this type of thing makes the move to the standard kernel make even more sense.

It's too early to tell but the BB Playbook may have received a stay of execution with the 2.0 update because of the much-ballyhooed ability to run Android apps. I've owned both tablets and the Touchpad is vastly superior but let's face it, it lacks apps. The fire sale made the TP #2 in sales for 2011 and got it into the hands of people. Who knows what a little more exposure will do to the OS if OpenMobile succeeds on webOS.

I just got my PB on Saturday morning and all I've got to say is that the app selection sucks compared to webOS. webOS apps are, by FAR, better, more fun, easier, more visually appealing, and overall a better experience than virtually ALL of the available apps on the PlayBook. The one thing the PB has going for it is that it's got a ton of junk to sift through that you can't get from webOS, and the native apps for it are awesome. The Android apps seem to run better on the PB than they do in Android... but that's still what they are -- ANDROID apps. And that means that no matter what, they still share the same common crap UI that I strongly dislike, which is the sole reason I dislike Android. The UI is horrid to look at.

Do you REALLY want a bunch of apps that look like crap on webOS? I don't.

I guess that's why I have the option of _not downloading it though. And I won't be.

I'd MUCH rather see HP invest the time and money into getting these SAME big name publishers to write ENYO apps. Why? Because ENYO is what I like. ENYO is what I love. ENYO is what I want on my TouchPad. If I want Android apps, I'll go out and buy an ANDROID tablet. Or I'll boot into CM9. No, I want webOS for webOS.

I guess I'm in the minority.

You're hardly in the minority as far as I'm concerned. I just want webOS "out there" so people can see how superior the UI is compared to Android. But let's not forget that there are millions more Android devices out there than webOS. Meg has made it fairly clear that we won't be seeing anymore webOS devices anytime soon, if ever. So if the community can make a case for webOS as a viable alternative, who knows? Maybe we can some day be able to port webOS onto better hardware. I think we can all agree that the Pre and all of its iterations is really not that good a device. The TP, as good as it is, isn't pocketable as a 7" device is and there isn't a 7" TP out there right now. Would you agree that Enyo apps would look better running on say a Galaxy II S or maybe a Xoom tablet? See where I'm going with this?

"But let's not forget that there are millions more Android devices out there than webOS."

There's millions of people that fail math every day. It doesn't mean that math sucks, is unimportant, or that those people are all right.

Also, there's millions of people that eat McDonalds every night for a living. That doesn't make McDonalds better than Outback Steakhouse. "Millions of people can't be wrong" -- Yes. Yes they can.

"Meg has made it fairly clear that we won't be seeing anymore webOS devices anytime soon, if ever."

Wrong. Meg has NOT made it clear that we won't be seeing any more webOS devices soon, if ever. In fact, she has hinted at the exact OPPOSITE .. and has even stated in an interview, that was posted on THIS SITE, that there will be another webOS tablet.

"I think we can all agree that the Pre and all of its iterations is really not that good a device."

No, actually I don't agree. I think exactly the opposite. Speak for yourself.

"The TP, as good as it is, isn't pocketable as a 7" device is and there isn't a 7" TP out there right now."

Actually, there is. It's called "TouchPad Go," and you can get one off eBay if you look hard.

"Would you agree that Enyo apps would look better running on say a Galaxy II S or maybe a Xoom tablet?"

No. I don't agree. Enyo apps suck on Android. They run like crap. They run FAR better on webOS, iOS, and BlackBerry Playbook. On Android, they run terrible. ICS is marginally better for running Enyo apps, but in all honesty it's STILL not as good as other platforms -- because the webkit version Android uses, while improved with ICS over _any_ other version under 4.0, is still not as good up to par.

"See where I'm going with this?"

No, actually, I don't.

There's millions of people that fail math every day. It doesn't mean that math sucks, is unimportant, or that those people are all right....millions of people that eat McDonalds every night for a living. That doesn't make McDonalds better than Outback Steakhouse. "Millions of people can't be wrong" -- Yes. Yes they can.

I could be wrong but most business are here to make money. It doesn't matter if millions of people are right or wrong. It matters if they care enough to purchase your product. "Business" is hardly a moral compass. Right or wrong is irrelevant.

Meg has NOT made it clear that we won't be seeing any more webOS devices soon, if ever. In fact, she has hinted at the exact OPPOSITE .. and has even stated in an interview, that was posted on THIS SITE, that there will be another webOS tablet.

Did you miss the article on "THIS SITE" stating that the individuals that would make new devices have been...uhm..."retasked"? Look, you can take one statement by itself and interpret it to mean something that closely resembles your point or you can take all the actions of HP (and the events that surround them) to date "as a whole" and come to a more educated conclusion.

* Here's the Pre2
* Uhm...scratch that.
* Printers? Toasters? PCs? We got you.
* Everybody On!
* Small, Medium, Large; Think beyond.
* Think licensing.
* Here's the Veer
* Veer's not selling well
* Here's the Pre 3...well...sorta...ok...nevermind
* webOS we don't do if it ain't version 2.thru
* We'll make it right...later
* Here's the TouchPad
* You don't need but 20% of the known apps...otherwise "you're just chasing a fad".
* This is the TouchPad? I don't recommend it.
* It's later now and we're making it right if you spend right.
* Here's the TouchPad...again...for real this time.
* Here's the TouchPad on sale.
* Here's the TouchPad permanently reduced in price.
* Best Buy say what? False!
* We don't do hardware...so....Everybody Off!
* Here's the TouchPad on firesale (only took ~49 days)
* Nah, we don't make those anymore
* What supply partners?
* Sigh. OK, we still make those...but only one more batch.
* OK, we still do PC (and related) hardware. Sorry.
* What do we do with webOS?
* We already know what we're doing (and going to do) with Windows-based hardware
* Did we mention licensing?
* Look at all these rumors...surely ONE must be true and webOS will land in the hands of...
* HP for $400 please Alex. "Answer: $3.8 BILLION" (Ooh, I know this one)
* "The" webOS will land in the hands of...the community
* We might make another webOS device one day but we're windows now.
* Since we're not making webOS devices, do we really need all these people on board?

Somewhere in there, Meg mentioned "there might be another webOS device...in the future", so let's just ignore the entire history and focus on that.

Look if you want to rip apart my post, go for it. I am on your side. I agree with you. I was speaking with the previous poster.

Business can make money with shitty products, and they can make money with products that they actually believe in. It's their choice.

You start your business -- I've already started mine.

My response was towards "the points made in your post" and is not personal. Just putting that out there. I've seen many post take a single action to mean one thing while ignoring all the other conflicting actions that effectively negate the one favorable action. Again, it's nothing personal...just discussing the points being made.

BTW, I've been a small business owner (as the sole means of supporting myself and my family) for more than a decade now. I'm not sure that makes me any more (or less) qualified to voice an opinion here.

Although there are many more important factors which determine credibility, it certainly does not make you less credible having experience as a small business owner.

I appreciate the way you phrased your first paragraph, by the way. That's an interesting take on the situation that I probably wouldn't have realized had you not pointed it out to me.

I'm still only casually paying attention to what certain companies are doing around me. It's always hard for me to say with certainty what I'd do in that situation, as it's hard for anyone to say that as well. But there is a clear cut difference between putting in effort and investing resources and time from taking the "easy" route and caving in to the mass demands of the public.

I'd much rather see HP spend time and resources being trendsetters, creating the mass demands, rather than feeding the "monster" that is the current state of the mobile market. They've already got a head start with webOS. There's no need to stray away from that.

2c

I hear ya but disagree with that last paragraph. HP wanted to be THE trendsetter by becoming better than one of the current trendsetters. This was all the talk about #1+ last year. The problem is they tried to do it by copying the trendsetter in too many ways while the few trends they've tried to set have been ignored by the majority of their potential consumers.

Exemples of their trends:
* Veer: failed (it was more of a "revisit of a past trend"). That trend was left behind for some very specific reasons.
* Multitasking: mixed (and copied...I suppose that's an indication of success)

Example copies:
* TouchPad: failed (partly because way too much attention was payed to the then current iPad without realizing that Apple was not standing still)
* PDK: failed to a large degree (I'm speaking here on the "Let's make it easy for iOS devs to port" thing...though that was more of a Palm thing)

To me, HP only open sourced webOS because they had nothing else to do with it, NOT because they wanted to set some kind of trend (by following a bit of the shadows of Android).

By the way, It's always hard for me to say with certainty what I'd do in that situation, as it's hard for anyone to say that as well. ...strongly agree. That's why this is all just a bunch of opinions. Any one of us can be right...or wrong.

It may well be th minority tht I, too, find myself in..
But then, I've never had a problem being th only one who's right in a crowd...

Here's the thing.
I just put CM9 on my son's Touchpad because his bought and paid for Angry Birds apps were no longer being updated. The process was so simple, that I added it to my Touchpad today.
I prefer WebOS and I'm willing to pay for WebOS apps even when they are free on Android. However I cannot support WebOS developers if I'm running CM9 to get the apps I need/want right now
With OpenMobile I can stay with WebOS and continue to support developers. This can keep the ecosystem alive long enough to give it a chance to come back.

This.

I recently loaded CM9 A2, but i find myself missing my core webOS apps. I have a hard time finding an android equivalent to Spaz HD. The choice in browsers is nice, but i have a hard time decided which i prefer. The multitasking is nothing compared to swiping in webOS. I will hold on as long as my devices still run but i Needed some new games and apps.

> We don't want crappy ported JAVA apps on webOS,
> what we need is NATIVE ENYO APPS and
> MORE DEVELOPERS

I fully agree with you. But hey, perhaps having a ton of crap apps makes webOS gain a lot of customers, thus OUR developers can benefit from Android. I wouldn't mind buying again the "same" app if it works better because it's native.

Guess what? A native webOS developer could get very rich by, precisely, creating an "Android player" for webOS.

Go OpenMobile! Timing is crucial!

Exactly what I was thinking.

First (several weeks ago when news popped up out of CES), I was looking forward for this, but then I thought I was thinking just on a consumer perspective. What about our developers!? What about that thing webOS do that distinguish (light years I'd like to say) our beloved OS from anything out there?!

I definitely would buy first a webOS/enyo based app before any android/iOS app out there. But would this be fine just to access apps that are not developed for webOS (like infamus whatsapp)?

Quite a spot we are in: in the one hand, we lack apps. In the other: I know we, webOS lovers love to support our committed_loyal_extremly_talented_innovative (if not, just ask google why they highered Mathias Duarte and others) webOS developers (plus I hate android displays apps).

I would love to hear a developer, a committed_loyal_extremly_talented_innovative webOS developer, perspective on this matter. You have leaded us until now either way, so help us with this.

Thank you in advance,

You are exactly correct. We should exchange emails.

seriously ....technology is a fast pase growing industry i personally would love that as well ...but thats not the reality right now....as a matter of fact why not get them crappy stuff to buy time for the read deal O.o Hey! i just love WebOS all i need is some proper way to say Hi on "all" level via communication from not so smart fam n friends to smart fam n friends ;)

I won't pay more then 5 bucks.

HP can take half the bill.

Guess what? At first, I though your comment was wrong - But I realize you are vey right! mostly when a competing (diminishing) platform such as RIM already has added an Android subsystem to their product, without additional cost.

Yeah, but it's definitely worth it to anyone that bought the touchpad for 100 bucks.. If you spend 250 on urs or more.. I can see how it'd be a semi dissapointment.. But for anyone that spent 100 bucks where you can't even get digital frames that nice for that price.. I mean, why not spend 20 bucks to make it have all the apps?

its a great idea as long as its not used wrong

Is there any wisdom in moving the Homebrew apps to the actual app catalog? I speak as a non-developer, so I don't know if this is even possible....

Nope. The point of Preware is that it runs apps that run non-supported code and services. Homebrew apps are specifically apps that aren't allowed, for any number of reasons, to be in the app catalog.

There are Homebrew apps that could make it to the catalog, but this is completely up to the discretion of the individual developers.

Homebrew apps will forever be separate from the app catalog apps. WebOS Internals has more info on the matter.

Are phones included?
Otherwise... WOOT

They did this for webOS phones as well. But it's another question if HP is still willing to support the smartphone-part of webOS.

Weren't Android app developers upset that their apps wound up on BlackBerry without their permission or support? Will the same thing happen with webOS?

Android apps have to be repackaged by the developer and submitted to the Blackberry app store.  So no, apps were not released on Blackberry without the developer's consent.

Actually Handster has the developer's permission --- just that the Dolphin people didn't realize that they gave Handster the right to resell their app in other app stores.

The OpenMobile guy said that you will simply see all of the App Stores except for the one from Google. Unlike them, BlackBerry simply opened their own.

I'm fine with android apps as long as they don't go crawling thru my data and don't uglify the look of webOS too much. Maybe the devs will be encouraged to enyo-ify their apps.

edit: Nice reporting, Derek.

Thanks for the shout out derek! :)

I'm torn, would love to have new apps, but I'd rather have a few really high quality native enyo apps than thousands of crappy apps that don't share webOS look and feel. I want apps that work the way I do, like webOS!

I love my TouchPad, I love my Sprint Epic Touch 4g. Happy with both the way they are. But I think Im going to do the CM9 after a few more stable updates. But I do think this is interesting.

I don't see why HP would be interested in this. No company that is developing a platform is going to be interested in allowing a third party abstraction layer to effectively control the user experience for the majority of its app catalog. I the even that a hardware manufacturer decides to consider a webOS device, they would have to invite this third party to the table.

Furthermore, the claim that all Android apps will be compatible lacks credibility. Anyone who has worked with this kind of technology knows that it is impossible to guarantee compatibility.

Choice isn't a bad thing. webOS has enyo and PDK already, which is nice. RIM is actually going in the right direction (by coping webOS) and offers 4 development platform choices for the playbook, webworks, native (C/C++), Android, and Adobe AIR.

However, from a developer's POV, if a potential webOS customer has to buy a $50 runtime environment first, you are really limiting your market. You might as well write your app with enyo, and release the wrapped enyo version on android and the plain enyo version on webOS; same development work (if you are writing from scratch) and more potential market.

I want this, even if only for 1 or 2 apps that the developer refuses to develop for webOS.

that was my thought. as long as there alternatives in webOS, i'd go with a native app, but i would pay some bucks for whatsapp (oh will it be possible to access all the contacts) or a DLNA player/controller app for my webOS 2.x phones. I can't think of pretty much more right now.

oh ok 3 apps: KeePass 1.x compatible app for webOS 2.x phones

This is likely to be one of a number of things which paves the way to selling more devices. Would be the only logical reason for HP to back this development.

double post

I really look forward to the inclusion of the smartphones on this deal, specially the HP PRE 3s.

Nice, but I hope there is a way to get access to the main Android market after all.
I would love this on my Pre3, so I can continue to use that as my main phone and run some local Dutch apps.

I guess this will be available in the coming weeks...

> I hope there is a way to get access to the main Android market after all.

Highly unlekely. But correct me if I'm wrong, can every Android app be obtained elsewhere, and sideloaded?

(double post)

I know there are other ways to get the apps (I believe there is a chrome extension to download them from the android market website), but it would be the easiest (and legal) way to get them from the market :)

Yay! Bring us those apps OpenMobile!
This is one of those things that's a great win-win! We get the apps we need, OpenMobile gets revenue, and the end of the app gap mean third party hardware manufacturers will look seriously at putting out webOS hardware...

more good news, cant wait.

Interesting that he gave you that much. During my conversation w/ him he sorta hid behind when it would be released & what the price tag would officially be.

He did seem to sway that it would be a one time purchase rather then an additional price on each android app. And when he said coming "Soon" I couldn't get anything better then that.

Although they are hoping to put out some beta testers very soon. I'm still hoping i'm one of them :)

$10? So far $5 has been the most I've paid for an app, but I'd buy it for $10.

Finally the OpenMobile approach is getting the attention I think it deserves. Can't wait to see how this pans out.

And RE: CM9, at least you have the option to dual boot between webOS and Android, right? That way we can still support webOS when we can.

I don't understand the thinking that mutating webOS into an Android clone OS will somehow compel manufacturers who are supposedly not making money selling ACTUAL Android tablets and phones to take up webOS and make smartphones and tablets.

Good for OpenMobile making money off the dupes who bought failed devices and want a taste of viable ecosystems, but Android app "compatibility" has done ZERO to elevate the lowly Blackberry Playbook and the same will be true for webOS.

Yeah, but the last time I checked, blackberry playbook came out w/ a lot of issues (more so then webOS did at launch) Plus, they never had a firesale putting it into that hands of a million people.

You should check again, then, because they did lower the price to $199 (60 percent off) for a limited time, and have now permanently priced them at $299. In fact, on Amazon now, you can buy 16 and 32GB Playbooks NEW for $220-$260.

Also, the idea that Blackberry's launch had MORE issues than webOS is just laughable. That's like comparing a 10-car pileup with a subway train crash. There's a point where the severity of each is pretty much irrelevant.

Another point of clarification: HP's firesale put the Touchpad into the hands of almost a million RESELLERS, not active users. That's why there are hundreds of listings on eBay every day since September 2011 - many of them NEW unopened boxes from months ago. What does that tell you?

irrelevant??? The Blackberry playbook didn't even have native apps like EMAIL or a calender until a month or two ago.. .. That's a HUGE difference then waiting a month for the 3.04 update from WebOS..... ..

And the last time I checked... $200 is Twice as much as $100 .. I mean, If Open Mobile comes out.. and they charge you 100 dollars for it.. .. your touchpad that you bought for 100 bucks is still a better deal then you buying a playbook on amazon today! .. True story.

So.. your right. people are selling them for more on Ebay.. So let's just say 500,000 people are walking around w/ 100 dollar touchpads.. Still a nice little number if you ask me.

That's no difference at all when comparing to the long list of things webOS is still missing from all versions. Also, I like how you assume 500,000 people are walking around with "$99" touchpads. The vast, VAST majority of those sold at $99 were and are STILL being resold - many new in unopened boxes.

People will keep reselling the same Touchpads over and over and over for years to come, most likely. That's not a userbase...it's a flea market. It's no wonder not even HP will put out hardware trying to make money off this lot. It has never been done, and it can't be done at this point.

You gotta be out of your mind, if you think the vast majority of touchpads out there are being sold right now on ebay.. You have clearly lost touch w/ reality..

And the 1 and only thing the playbook has had over webos was Android

No, I said the vast majority of the $99 ones were sold and still being resold. Not just through eBay (who has several hundred listings of 16 and 32GB models every three days or so. That's several tens of thousands since Black Friday), but also Craiglist, and of course, the retailers like Woot who mysteriously get their hands on "new" lots and then sell them way above cost in bundles.

Don't you think it's odd that the supply is seemingly inexhaustible for a product that hasn't been made since last year? That you can still find so many shrink wrapped and untouched?

Meanwhile, if so many new users were loving webOS and its app ecosystem, don't you think the Time Inc.'s of the world would be INCREASING their presence on the platform and not abandoning it? They don't seem to be getting the customers they thought they would when they stood alongside HP on stage in February of 2011.

Think of all of the descriptors you have to get through to reach a webOS fan and convert them into an app customer:

They have to have purchased a firesale or resold Touchpad...AND they have to have resisted the temptation to resell it immediately for a profit......AND they have to have resisted the call to install CM7 or CM9 on their tablet to get a vaguely modern experience.....AND they have to be interested in buying apps and willing to sink a lot more money into a product they likely only bought because it was 60-80 percent off.....AND they have to be uninterested in new and upcoming tablets like Asus $250 7-inch Tegra 3 model...AND....

AND you somehow think that the few hundred that have been popping up on Ebay, Woot & craigslist equals 500,000 touchpads???

IF that is your argument, I would like you to support it rather then hear you just bash the platform. Show me the 500,000 Plus Touchpads that have been re-sold online at greater prices.

I said no such thing. What I said is that the majority of the first round of Touchpads has BEEN RESOLD. Not that they are currently unopened and for sale on eBay or Craigslist. It is a virtual cottage industry. A "few hundred" Touchpads pop up on eBay ALONE every 1-2 days.

The supply has never waned since late August 2011. Given that it's a 50-50 split between new and used, it's reasonable to conclude that not only are older not units STILL being unloaded, but even people who bought from resellers are now reselling used units themselves. So this "rabid demand" is only for the same X hundred thousand Touchpads that have been around for several months now. The price never goes up (roughly $200-300) and the supply never expands, yet they're readily available despite being "sold out" for months now.

That tells you that the supply of Touchpads is constant, while the ownership of Touchpads appears to be constantly in flux, i.e. it's a RESELLER'S market, not a rabid webOS fan market. If you want to see a webOS device that is obscure, yet actually lusted after by webOS fans, look at a Verizon Pre 3.

Lets pretend your psycho idea is right.. A few hundred (300) are sold every day on Ebay. Lets multiply that number by.. I donno A FREAKING YEAR.. I get 109,500 Touchpads RE-SOLD. Your idea of 500,000 plus Touchpads having been re-sold over and over again on 3rd markets is absurd.

The touchpad went on sale for 99 dollars for 1 full day. Every store in the nation sold out in less then 2 hours. Many were bought by employees.. What you are forgetting is that MANY people were then able to buy them on HP.com w/ a maximum of 2 per person. Then, HP had multiple sales throughout the year up until christmas: Tiger Direct sold them for 99, Comp USA sold them for 99, Then the package deals: Best Buy sold them w/ new laptops on black friday (sold out by like 7am) Then of course there was others.

You can't honestly think that 500,000 Plus Touchpads have been "RE-SELLING" over and over again.. That's like saying we never landed on the moon, or you don't believe in dinosaurs.

Lets be clear about this.. My argument is not about how Popular WebOS is (right now) it is about your amazing statement that over 500,000 Touchpads have been bought by people w/ the plan to re-sell them at higher cost.

Nothing amazing about it. Just logical.

The secondary sales later on in the year came from the same lot that existed on Aug. 19. HP didn't do MORE manufacturing runs. So there was a fixed amount that existed in late August 2011. It will never get bigger.

But the supply available to be purchased has never dwindled since. Think about that. I'm not putting a fixed number like 500,000 or whatever that have been resold. In fact, the closest we have to an official total number sold is 750,000 as stated by Meg Whitman. I'm not even saying that X number of people bought it WITH the intent to resell. That's unknowable.

I'm simply saying that the percentage of people selling and reselling these devices - instead of keeping them and using them - continues to grow. It MUST be getting bigger all of the time if the resell supply never dwindles. They haven't been made in 7 months, yet you could go out and buy hundreds of them today. And then hundreds more a day or two later. And that's just eBay. An obscure and discontinued item that is NEVER scarce - even more than half a year later - is not an item that is particularly coveted and exalted. This is more like an item you find at Big Lots - it failed, but now a reseller got it for pennies on the dollar and is making a modest profit off of the original manufacturer's failure.

The original IPad stopped being produced.. I donno, a Year ago.. But there are HUNDREDS on Ebay right now!... Was that product failed? Or is it a logical statement to say that people sell their products after they use them all the time? Never scarce.. Products don't become scarce until a majority of them have broken and are un-fixable. Like a Polaroid from like 1980.. Which is probably findable on ebay as well.

And to say they didn't manufacture anymore after the august sale is crap considering that it took over a month for them to remanufacture the rest, hence the $99 sale for the employees late in the september 28th and the multiple sales on black friday.

Your argument is more then failed.. it's straight up Absurd.. This marks the end of my responses to you.

Hopefully, it marks the beginning of rational responses from you. Of course original iPads are still on sale and will be for quite some time...they actually have a substantial resale value and the users of the platform want to use the money to buy the NEW iPad. There also happens to be tens of millions of them in the wild.

What there aren't are hundreds of NEW, unused iPad 1 models on eBay every 1-2 days. What there aren't are hundreds of people reselling iPads they bought just a month or two prior for any reason other than trying to upgrade to the iPad HD/3.

But yeah...other than that, great example, bro!

Yeah, I'm not sure where you are going with this.... Just because there are unopened Touchpads on eBay, you are concluding that few Touchpads are in actual use? That's a stretch.

Well, here's some actual numbers. WebOSNation did an article just a week ago about USA Today app downloads. They had 250K downloads of this one app - so I would argue that at least that many Touchpads have been opened out of their box and used at some point.

http://www.webosnation.com/usa-today-app-has-nearly-twice-many-downloads...

Is it any wonder why Time Inc. abandoned this platform?

**In response to jessicatapley - not sure how the response post got nested wrong **
Well, the alternative is to have no new shipping webOS devices and have all the webOS developers and users slowly bleed away.

On the other hand, if webOS users can run Android apps, then Touchpad users can stay on webOS (purchasing both Android and webOS apps) and it greatly increases the possibility that an OEM will ship a device with webOS later this year. I doubt any (certainly not any major manufacturers) will ship webOS devices without Android app compatibility. OEMs are looking for a way to differentiate their Android devices from one another (hence all the skinning) - if webOS is seen as an out-of-box skin for running Android apps (the best OS plus the largest stable of apps), what is the harm? It is certainly an improvement over the current scenario where webOS dies a slow death.

If you argue that webOS should not run Android apps, then you would probably argue that OpenWebOS can succeed running just the small app library that currently exists (roughly 10K) because it is not likely to grow that much - developers are not likely to commit to developing webOS apps unless there are more webOS users. There will not be a significant amount of new users (or an upgrade path for existing users) unless there is shipping HW (do you really expect 1 million users to install webOS on their own? That is just not realistic).

Android app compatibility like OpenMobile's ACL is likely the only way that webOS can remain viable going forward.

In regards to Blackberry - understand your argument, but the comparison is not completely valid. The Playbook's Android player has only become available recently, RIM the only one selling the hardware, 7" tablets are not getting as much attention as 10" tablets, and the Android apps have to be specifically sold through RIM's app store (most developers are not bothering to do that). Furthermore, RIM is not licensing their OS, so other OEMs can't fix these mistakes - hence, RIM Playbook sales are lagging. Once the HP firesale ended, Android tablets began increasing their market share again. We'll see what happens when Windows 8 is released later this year (that will have an impact on the marketplace, no doubt) but, for now, Android is the main iPad alternative.

Excellent news. Local banks and news outfits are never going to create webOS versions of their apps. This will save me time rebooting into CM9 for those apps.

This is really good news and some of the best I've heard for webOS in a long time. If webOS has the ability to run Android apps, it would instantly be viable for a lot of users (ones who are coming from Android devices and already have a lot of investment in Android apps) who might not ever currently consider it. More importantly, it would make it far more likely that an OEM would actually ship webOS devices later this year once webOS is fully open-sourced.

Porting Open webOS to other devices is good but I'm not convinced that can ever add up to enough of an installed base to win sufficient developer support for webOS. Enyo is a great cross platform framework but developers are not going to adopt it in sufficient numbers in the short run to come close to closing the apps gap that exists on webOS (especially given there are no new devices shipping with webOS). Many developers already have to support apps on iOS, Android (multiple versions), and some are supporting Blackberry and WinPhone also - developers are not just going to drop the investment that they already have in the existing tools and code that they already have made.

OpenMobile ACL make it far more likely that existing webOS users will stay with the platform and that OEMs will ship HW later this year (and that webOS can start growing and getting more users again). This is very good for webOS.

Why would this make it more likely that an OEM would ship webOS hardware - later this year or at any point? They ALREADY make Android tablets. If they can't sell the ones they have, why would selling a webOS tablet that runs some Android apps be any better of a sale?

They can't price it any cheaper. They're already making no profit. I'm genuinely interested to see how people think this means a more viable product. It hasn't worked for the Playbook.

And users "staying with webOS" is also fairly irrelevant. Much more relevant is whether developers or content providers like Time Inc. stay, and that is much less likely. The existing webOS userbase wasn't enough to make it viable to either Palm or HP. So, it's pointless to try to "retain" these people.

I replied to your other comment as to the reasons.

If webOS does not have the ability to run an extensive library of apps (Android app compatibilty would deliver this), then I see virtually no chance that an OEM will ever ship webOS again. If webOS has complete Android app compatibility then webOS would be a way for OEMs to differentiate their products. Simple as that.

Ok - so I would turn it around to you - how is webOS supposed to gain success WITHOUT Android app compatibility? Do you really expect thousands/millions of users to install webOS over the OS shipped with other devices? Do you expect OEMs to ship webOS devices that have an app library that is around 10K where competitors have 50K+ (WinPhone) and over 200K (Android/iOS)? As much marketing and commitment as Microsoft and Nokia has invested in Windows Phone, they are struggling to get developers and users. Do you think that webOS can somehow be successful without those same advantages (HP is not committing a lot of resources or even shipping any devices)?

Maybe Android compatibility isn't a panacea (as you point out) but it offers far better possibilities for the survival of the webOS platform than where we are now.

webOS will - technically - survive as long as fans want it to . They can do hackathons, homebrew apps, and patches until the cows come home with open source code. That much is assured assuming HP follows through on its September release schedule.

But Android app compatibility isn't even a big selling point for ANDROID devices. Who is the most profitable and best-selling Android manufacturer? Samsung. Why? Because they create huge, thin devices with amazing screens and powerful processors and get them on virtually every carrier. Do they even mention the word Android in any Galaxy S II commercials? Does the Kindle fire?

And webOS has been peddled as a "differentiator" to every Android OEM already. Not one bid to own the OS in 2010. Not one tried to license the OS when HP offered it for licensing before, during, and after Black Friday. Not one bought it before HP gave up and open-sourced it. It's a "differentiator" that requires hundreds of millions to create an ecosystem around it. Just as much to design new phones. Or to make it optimized for current quad-core tablet hardware. The thing that these smaller non-committed OEMs have in common is that they DON'T spend the little profit they eke out on designing top-shelf unique skins, extensive R&D, and customization for Android.

You have a few different points in your response so I'll address them one by one:
1. webOS will survive as long as fans want it to.
I think we differ on how we define survive. Your definition is what I would consider a hobbyist OS. By your definition, PalmOS, HaikuOS and a bunch of other OSes are still surviving. Yes, I can use PalmOS on my Treo680 and run apps on it (and there were something like 20K apps available for PalmOS). Is it relevant in the marketplace today? No.

For clarity's sake, I would define surviving as shipping on devices using a competitive class of hardware that are available through retailers (online and physical) and having enough marketshare to maintain a viable ecosystem where most categories of applications are covered. Apple's MacOS marketshare of 5-10% is probably a good lower limit as a ballpark.

I would like to see webOS survive using the definition used above.

2. OEMs selling Android devices are not using Android app compatibility as a selling point.
Yes, I agree there are examples of this. However, the lack of such advertising does not make it less of a critical feature. If broad application compatibility and app libraries are not such a key feature of such devices, then we should have seen a lot more success for webOS, Blackberry QNX, and even Windows Phone. We do not. The reason is that salepeople, knowledgeable SMEs (a non-technical user will consult their technical friend), and reviewers all include this as an important criteria regardless of whether it is featured in advertising. A user now expects that Samsung and Amazon devices will run all their favorite apps and content. When Android started in 2009, that was not the case - Google and Verizon did a lot of advertising building brand awareness around Android apps and the Droid brand, if you remember.

3. Palm and HP tried to sell the webOS unit in 2010 and 11 and there was no interest.
Not true (2010 sale) and/or not a valid comparison (2011 sale attempt). In 2010, multiple firms bid on Palm - that is a fact (HTC, Apple, HP, among others). In 2011, the bidding is not comparable - if, at the end of 2012, Open webOS + ACL is available, then it will be a drop-in replacement for Android. That is completely different from what HP tried to sell in 2011 (a closed source webOS that had a custom Linux kernel, drivers, etc). Assuming HP's open sourcing of webOS increases compatibility with device drivers for Android (which I believe is part of their goal in moving to a standard Linux kernel), it would mean that an OEM could optimize the drivers for their device one time (which they have to do anyway) and then run either Android or webOS + ACL on it - with no customization required. WebOS would offer an easy way to differentiate their device versus competing Android implementations.

Scotland - If you read my post from yesterday you'll note that I'm in perfect agreement with you and I voiced several of the same points you've made. Let the haters hate. Let them move on to iOS or Android and leave us to enjoy WHATEVER becomes of webOS as long as something is still happening with regards to development. Your Treo analogy was spot-on and I hope, like so many others, that webOS doesn't suffer the same fate.

1. Your definition will not happen. This isn't a specific knock against webOS, but carriers aren't trying to support more than three ecosystems and operating systems in any significant way. Especially someone with just an OS with no hardware and no ecosystem. ESPECIALLY with a product that has already burned Sprint and Verizon before. There is no open source OS with no ecosystem and no major company spending billions behind it that is "relevant in the marketplace today." None.

2. Android apps are not a selling point unless you're talking about the ones from Google. There are very few other apps on Android that are signature Android experiences that resonate with consumers. Name a game....weather app.....music app....it was on iOS first and is merely cross platform now.

3. HTC never did bid in 2010. The other companies listed that did were never Android OEMs, so my statement is true. 2011 saw no detailed bids for purchase OR license. But the idea of webOS and an Android player being a "drop-in replacement for Android" is laughable. Just as you can't simply "drop-in" an Android build on webOS hardware. There's a reason that the Cyanogen builds are alphas and betas done by volunteers and not multimillion dollar corporations who have support and branding to consider. You think webOS needs no customization if they "optimize drivers"? How long did it take Palm and HP to "optimize" webOS to fully GPU-accelerate the UI? How about getting the audio or accelerometer flaws straightened on the Touchpad?

Finally, you never answer the question driving this madness: WHO is looking for an Android replacement? Not HTC. They publicly shot down buying webOS last year. Not Samsung. Not Motorola. LG is only speeding up their Android production. Asus is buddy-buddy with Google on tablets. Huawei is has major high-end Android plans for the next 12-18 months. Sony is also doubling down on Android and their Playstation suite, and messing around with Windows Phone 8 prototypes. Has ANY Android manufacturer given up yet despite Samsung and Apple taking 90+ percent of the profits in the mobile space?

1. Carriers are already supporting more than 3 mobile OSes - let's see... Android, iOS, RIM, and WIndows Phone. They also support variants of each of these plus feature phones (each of which is different). Your point that carriers can not support more than 3 mobile OSes is disproven. That said, I agree that they do not want to and would prefer not to.

2. How did a point about the number of apps being an important criteria for a mobile platform evolve into a point about individual apps? Back on topic, iOS and Android are at relative parity in numbers and there are comparable apps on both platforms - every other mobile OS platform is at a disadvantage. Open Mobile's ACL makes webOS more attractive to OEMs and users because it eliminates is currently a significant disadvantage.

3. You are right - rumours are that HTC did not bid in 2010, but your point was that noone wanted to buy webOS. Unless you were party to the negotiations/bidding in either 2010 or 2011, I don't think either of us have information on what actually transpired or what the intentions were once the acquisition/licensing deal was signed. My point that webOS as a product in 2011 and webOS as a product at the end of 2012 are totally different remains. Even IF we assume that you are correct and that webOS was not attractive in the past, how does that make Open webOS + ACL less attractive as an option in the future?

Your point on Cyanogenmod helps make my point - the fact that volunteers are able to ship variants of an OS is one of the models that Open WebOS is supposed to enable. The changes being made this year are intended to make webOS easier to port and more compatible with other devices. The Touchpad was a brand new category of device (first webOS tablet) with a totally different branch and major revision of the operating system (3.0x). The fact that it had driver optimization issues is not surprising given that fact.

Stepping back, my original point was ONLY that Open Mobile's ACL makes it more likely that an OEM CAN and WILL ship webOS devices. I stand by that point and do not consider that any of your arguments prove otherwise. The mobile OS marketplace has demonstrated that consumers, OEMs, and carriers are all selecting mobile OSes with large app libraries.

Your point seems to be that NOTHING can help webOS and that ACL does not matter - we probably just need to agree to disagree.

You also argue that handset vendors do not care about differentiation - which is simply not true. All major Android vendors have custom skins and they continue to maintain them despite the obvious complications and market challenges they present (market challenges such as delay in time to market for the latest OS plus their custom skin, additional staff and resources required to support the skin, plus complications to upgrading existing/legacy handsets to the latest OS version). If handset vendors are spending additional resources to differentiate themselves, there is no reason they could not spend those resources to support OpenWebOS + ACL rather than a custom Android skin. Whether they will is a different discussion.

In answer to your question, I agree that no major OEM currently shipping Android would probably ship Open WebOS, at least not initially. I think the most likely possible candidate to ship Open WebOS plus ACL would be a 2nd tier vendor that is currently shipping a stock version of Android (ZTE, Lenovo, etc). It would be a way for them to grab some headlines and stand out in a crowded marketplace without selling just on price.

"All major Android vendors have custom skins and they continue to maintain them despite the obvious complications and market challenges they present "

Just want to add, that because the amount of custom skins on android tablets.. One has to wonder how many people thought buying a webOS tablet was like buying another Android tablet w/ a custom HP skin?

I don't know what my goal in saying this is outside the fact that, people I know assumed that my tablet was an android tablet many times. I have also seen the article on some website (maybe here) about the WebOS touchpad being on sale in BestBuy in canada and marked (android)

I guess what I am getting at is, if you feel there isn't room for another OS in the market IE: WebOS.. I think by adding the Android apps to WebOS many people might not notice a difference in the stores. Android has to many variations & doesn't have the same Type of base that apple does.

So let me make an example incase i'm not coming across the same: HTC builds a Tablet.. Then they name it.. i donno.. Touch Pad HD.. Market Android on it.. cause we know android sells & android apps are on it.. Then they slap both the android logo & the Open WebOS logo on it.. Why would a carrier not carry that device? Why would they treat it like a new Operating system when it can basically be sold as Android?

Not saying I want webOS to be marketed like that, nor am I saying that WebOS looks and acts like Android.. .. Just saying Openmobile brings them a little bit closer together.

And it's also unfair to compare it against blackberry who has: Not been spending much money in marketing, have not marketed that they can put android apps on their device, they failed to have a native email for the longest time & they aren't going to be Open Source giving HTC the ability to use their OS and market it themselves.. They are marketing it as a Blackberry device & Blackberry anything doesn't get a lot of praise right now.

The irony of people here getting excited that someone will market webOS as KIRF Android when these very forums dog the Android OS all day long is palpable.

"So let me make an example incase i'm not coming across the same: HTC builds a Tablet.. Then they name it.. i donno.. Touch Pad HD.. Market Android on it.. cause we know android sells & android apps are on it.. Then they slap both the android logo & the Open WebOS logo on it.. Why would a carrier not carry that device? Why would they treat it like a new Operating system when it can basically be sold as Android?"

Let me answer this question with a question: When any Android manufacturer can slap whatever skin they want ALREADY on top of the Android devices they ALREADY make, why would they make a webOS device that just does the same thing but not as well? The value of the webOS UI is minimal in terms of sales impact. Copying it outright didn't help Blackberry, and every real webOS device has failed miserably in sales.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to speak for everyone in here.. This is juust my opinion on how people see things.. They don't see them as different OS's but they see them as different Skins. (my opinion) Anyway,

Isn't there some part of you that says.. HTC is supposed to cease making Android Phones/Tablets unless they do a few changes dealing w/ the FTC & Apples Patents? Just saying.. An easy way out of that is going WebOS - no longer have to worry about those patent infringements.

Not so sure you can say "It does the same thing but not as well" Considering that WebOS does MANY things better then ANY android device :)

Then ofcourse Android buying Motorolla is also going to have an impact on what manufacturers do down the road. WebOS can be a safe & easy change from Android if you can still use Android apps.. Especially in the short term.

Isn't there some part of you that says.. HTC is supposed to cease making Android Phones/Tablets unless they do a few changes dealing w/ the FTC & Apples Patents? Just saying.. An easy way out of that is going WebOS - no longer have to worry about those patent infringements.

So...abandon the thing that is making you some money despite legal battles and adopt the thing that failed under TWO companies (costing one over $3 BILLION in losses) because of a myth that at least there would be no legal battles?

How does that sales pitch go?

"Having legal troubles with your OS? Try ours! We're not really using it anyway."

Interesting. Or maybe just fanatic.

a BIT extreme don't you think? I'm not sure I was creating a "Sales pitch" in the first place.. Instead I was giving reasons why people may be attracted to WebOS.. .. That was just 1 of them.

Clearly you are not attracted to WebOS..and a few little comments isn't about to change your mind.

You are effectively suggesting the equivalent of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater". These companies are making real money despite some legal battles and you are suggesting they abandon that and adopt an OS that has been met with, as Jon put it, "a slower than expected adoption rate" by consumers. So two companies failed at it with one investing all they had and the other investing BILLIONS. But somehow, you see it as the solution any legal problems an OEM may have with Android?

Nah, that's not extreme at all.

No where in any of my statements did I ever say that HTC or any other company should fully drop Android and replace it w/ WebOS.. . My statements merely reflects on certain possibilities that may lead a company to try WebOS. So No.. HTC dropping android would be a dumb move.. Me and you agree completely on that.

W/ that being said, I do believe WebOS having Android applications, the patents they hold & an Open Source OS makes it very attractive to HTC and other companies.

No where in any of my statements did I ever say that HTC or any other company should fully drop Android and replace it w/ WebOS

Right here...

An easy way out of that is going WebOS - no longer have to worry about those patent infringements.

If what you really meant was that they keep Android and use webOS "as an additional OS", then they would still have to worry about those patent infringements. Wouldn't they? How do you take an easy way out without actually getting out?

Your twisting my words to fit your argument. I have already said, that I would never expect companies to completely jump ship of Android. I have instead said, WebOS is an easy way out of patent infrigements.

There are many reasons why HTC can still run Android w/ out infringing on those FTC violations. 1 way is: FTC Is only America.. and the last I checked...Cell phones work around the world. 2nd way: Maybe HTC just removes those capabilities from their android devices (in america) instead of trying to re-create w/ out infrigments - which will cost time/effort/money.. etc..

You seem to want me to drop down to a 4th grader argument level about (He said she said).. The fact of the matter remains here dude, WebOS could become very attractive to other companies out there worried about infrigements, motorolla, etc..

webOS is an "easy way out of patent infringements" for people bad at math.

Paraphrasing from the old adage, it's better to have a little bit of a lot than to have a whole lot of...nothing.

As an Android manufacturer, you're part of an ecosystem that activates 700,000 or so devices a DAY, so even if you only have 5 percent marketshare among Android manufacturers, you're potentially selling 35K devices a day or a million a month. On the other hand, two major companies with name recognition galore (Palm and HP) spent several billion over two years to sell somewhere between 2-3 million webOS devices combined. Which makes more financial sense to pursue: Making better Android devices or making a KIRF Android device with an OS that has failed twice and is bad-mouthed by US carriers and carrier reps?

And keep in mind, webOS isn't free from patent royalties. You want to use ActiveSync so people can get mail? Pay Microsoft. Will HP contribute money as Google does to defend you if Apple comes a-calling for violating their broad touchscreen patents? Nope.

Not twisting your words at all. I've even posted your exact words in my responses. My question still remains however.

If an OEM is worries about Android's legal issues, how does webOS cure those woes without said OEM replacing Android with webOS?

If they use both Android and webOS, they would still face the legal issues of Android on any device they make that runs Android. If they stop making Android devices and only make webOS devices instead, isn't that "replacing android with webOS"?

What's with the 4th grader nonsense? Quoting someone and responding to that quote is now the equivalent of "he said she said"? Really?

The fact of the matter remains here dude, WebOS could become very attractive to other companies out there worried about infrigements, motorolla, etc..

You've got some work to do before you can take that opinion and call it a fact. The only related facts that I'm aware of are:

1. OEMs have been faced with legal issues surrounding Android for some time now and
2. Despite being available for licensing, NONE of them have jumped on the "webOS as a cure" bandwagon to date.

Maybe webOS "could become very attractive", but so far it hasn't been.

I was qouting the big lebowski in that fact statement..Very good.. But yeah, I agree w/ you "It could become very attractive" there is still a lot of work to do which both me and you clearly agree on..

Did you twist my words around? Technically speaking no, but you did use them out of context w/ my message. But maybe I still haven't given you the answer you want.... I can't help that part of it.
As of the HTC patent infrigements:
I'm not entirely certain of the paramaters HTC faces using Android, but I know it's not devastating to using the android platform. I honestly can't remember, but I think it's more about phone calls & storing contacts or something. Something that can be taken off of their devices - hence why other companies haven't been tackled the same way as HTC has.. ( I really don't remember much on this issue & it's not worth it to me to look it up :)

Let me answer this question with a question: When any Android manufacturer can slap whatever skin they want ALREADY on top of the Android devices they ALREADY make, why would they make a webOS device that just does the same thing but not as well? The value of the webOS UI is minimal in terms of sales impact. Copying it outright didn't help Blackberry, and every real webOS device has failed miserably in sales.

Well, other than legal liability witch is covered extensively above this post (below the original post), as an answer consider that not all OEMs probably want to put all their marbles into the Google basket. Most companies want to have at least two sourcing choices for negotiating leverage (why we have seen WinPhone continue to ship despite its lack of popularity; then add in MS subsidies for OEMs).

Along these lines there are other possible considerations not related to purely economic reasons - for example, given the run-in that Google had with the Chinese government (Google search and other services are no longer available in mainland China), I could see Chinese handset OEMs not wanting to help out Google (under pressure from their government). Whether those same companies would want to help HP is a different question. But that is why I think a 2nd tier Chinese OEM might be the most likely ones to ship an Open WebOS device.

Finally, companies that are ahead of the curve on any potential platform shift tend to do better in the marketplace - and 2nd tier companies have the most to gain. Microsoft wasn't originally dominant in Office software, for example - Excel was popular but their other apps did not take off until Microsoft committed to versions of their software on Windows before their major competition (Wordperfect, dBase, Lotus) did. As another example, Microsoft was a leader along with Palm and RIM in the first generation of mobile OSes but all those companies have struggled in the 2nd generation released since Apple announced the iPhone. Finally, Motorola was struggling in mobile phones but committed early to Android and that bet paid off for them. I could go on but if a company just follows their competition and never takes any risks than it is very hard to emerge from the pack and dramatically change the company's fortune and future.

My point is not that Open WebOS + ACL guarantees that an OEM will ship HW with that combination - just that it is more likely. We can debate all day the degree of change in likelihood but I think the facts are in my favor that it is more likely than the current scenario. I agree the likelihood of webOS shipping as it is now is very low - the lack of webOS apps today makes a webOS device a non-starter with any OEM.

No, this is really good for webos developers. Right now there are thousands of people like me who haven't booted into webos for weeks. If this works well you'll have a lot more people using webos over ics.

If I'm ready in webos, I'll keep an eye on webos apps to see what's new. Right now I'm not checking it at all.

No, this is really good for webos developers. Right now there are thousands of people like me who haven't booted into webos for weeks. If this works well you'll have a lot more people using webos over ics.

If I'm ready in webos, I'll keep an eye on webos apps to see what's new. Right now I'm not checking it at all.

I keep an Android around for one app: Anki (spaced repetition software, smart flashcards). I was considering seeing how much it would cost to bribe them to do a port, so this is good news for me.

Sure, I could run it on a computer, but I love the fact that if you forget to do your reviews, it will remind you.

SICK WANT IT NOW!!!!!!!! And best part I bet if we do download infected andriod crap we wont have any trouble with it! Plus Iwont regret ever getting a touchpad!!!!!YYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at all the complainers on here. The claim is that Android will be native, not emulated, thus an android App would be just as native as a webOS app. Who cares if developers don't make webOS apps? How does that have anything to do with your use of webOS? I'm here for the OS, Synergy, Cards, multitasking, notifications and I'm starving because of the lack of apps. This solves my problem and webOS will continue to be developed and ported to new hardware, so I don't see any drawbacks... IF you think this is a bad idea, then don't buy the app. If you think this will cause apps to stop being developed on webOS, have you been to the app catalog lately?

Where is the concern that this should be released early enough for the few remaining webos users or the few that have not yet fully adopted to another platform to return? Coming from someone who have been using CM9 ICS on the touchpad for the past three weeks with no need to return to webos there may be very little incentive to using webos. App switching has significantly improved with ICS, the web experience is also really good, now consider the number of apps. Even if open mobile come along with their release if it is not soon enough there may be too few webos users left to keep the platform commercially relevant.

I make my declaration as a fan of webos, but I must remain realistically practical, when it comes to bring productive when using a tablet.

I disagree.. Mainly because I think changing a TP to run android is like changing a PC to run Linux. (Hard or not) Most people just don't wanna full around w/ that sorta thing.. W/ that being said, it's to hard right now to gauge how many people are interested in WebOS.

I will say, that prices of the Pre3 on amazon were 200 bucks and are now 500 bucks.. I say that assuming there just isn't many left & people jumped on them fast.. Maybe there is only a few million of WebOS people out there, but OpenMobile is definitely something that puts us back in the mix again.

It's crazy to suggest this is anything but a GOOD development!

If we lived in the perfect webOS filled la-la-land then there would be loads of native apps vying for our attention and money and we wouldn't need to rely on 'horrible dirty android apps'.
We don't live in that land, sadly. We have an OS that NEEDS more apps and they simply aren't being created to the extent that we'd all like.

There are so many iphone/Android apps I'd resigned myself to never having on webOS and now I will (hopefully) be able to rectify that (assuming most good iphone apps are available on Android). YAY!

I also spoke to the CEO and he is a really nice guy who wants webOS to succeed and I think it will with this product. To have android apps act within the webOS ecosystem is HUGE!!!. He mentioned that the availability would start off on the TouchPads, the phones have not been mentioned but with our whip smart developers it may become a reality. We will find out when the formal announcement happens. I am really excited about this development. :) And I announced on my blog on a few days ago :)

It's awesome to know that he has been reaching out to the WebOS community. I hope that means this is becoming a reality and not just some play w/ my mind hopes and dreams thing

How about a YouTube demonstration video showing a webOS TP running an Android title? Wouldn't that be a logical proof-of-concept step if you really want people to be interested?

It's not on the Touchpad but it was shown running in the webOS emulator on a PC in January at CES. Here is the Youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcwe8FIz2Io

At this point in time, anything is better than what it is now. From a pragmatic point of view, Android apps on webos won't hurt webOS. Best case scenario, android developers might convert to enyo app-making for android and webOS by default. Open Mobile can be seen as a stepping stone like with CLASSIC for PalmOS. Wouldn't you take the risk and get android developers in the same ballpark as webOS developers?

Well, this is officially a popular topic - it is the most commented article in the last month. Excluding app giveaways, there hasn't been an article with this many comments (over 90 at current count), since 4 Feb, the article on pirating apps written by a developer.

If Open Mobile delivers ACL, at least we might have more opportunities for app reviews. :) No slight to Derek or webOSNation and staff (they're doing the best they can with what they're dealt), just wish we had more exciting webOS news (like device launches!!) In any case, 2012 seems to be headed in a better direction after the disaster that was 2H2011.

If Open Mobile delivers ACL, at least we might have more opportunities for app reviews. :)

Ouch! If this comes about, will this site begin writing endless "Android App Reviews"? And if so, will the mods ban Derek for having too many Android-related posts?

lol Like :)

hmm. there are usually at least one or two new apps on our catalog nearly every day. WebOS Nation really could step up their reviews. I'd like to nominate "Starship Quixotic" for a review, because that developer could really use the exposure, he wants to support webOS, but so far, even pricing his game at like half what it's priced on other app stores, he's still not making squat on it. Which is just too damn bad, because he's really given us a fantastic little game.

Can I preorder, huh, can I? Anything to demonstrate that this is a viable concept for them.

I want to be enthusiastic about this, but most Android apps have the same QC issues that the rest of their operating system has. Also, as we have learned from other systems that have emulated more popular systems, that's usually a good way to guarantee that very few people ever write another native app for your platform.

Then again, all platforms except Android are pretty much moving towards webOS's app model .. . so.. there is that.

Not true. Microsoft has their own unique ecosystem and app store, and are pushing it in line with Windows 8. Apple....'nuff said. What you mean is "all platforms that have no ecosystem of their own are moving towards leeching off of Android". And that's probably true, though it's probably meaningless because no hardware manufacturers have plans to support any of these other platforms, except for Samsung/Tizen/Bada and Nokia with the occasional Symbian belle handset.

This would be great to have a stop-gap measure for a ton more applications on webOS while Enyo apps are still being developed!

I'm ready to buy this natively on the TouchPad. Hopeful price isn't too killer. up to $30-50 I am in.

Apps wise, VERY GOOD!!! Sadly it'll bring ugly android to elegant webOS.
@jessicatapley and @taharka:
You're just pathetic_scared of a "dead" platform_closed minded "human beings". The thing that makes this (which I must say, haven't yet settled with) development a great opportunity is not even the vastly app ecosystem of a plain ugly_confusing_extremely segmented Mobile OS (a.k.a. android). What makes this -or will make if it happens- very appealing is: HAVING THE BEST -and I mean- THE BEST MOBILE OPERATING SYSTEM OF ALL FINALLY WITH THE AVAILABILITY OF VASTLY -ugly though- APP ECOSYSTEM.
We all can agree that what makes Users, developers, OEMs and carriers go with android is its robust ecosystem (which is and works as a cycle -vicious if you ask me- where users want it, devs develops because users want it, OEMs makes hardware because user/devs want it, carriers supports it because users/developer/OEMs help it grow it and viola (this has been vaguely -to not say poorly- explained)... now OS specifically speaking, neither android nor iOS have a chance on UI, Multitasking, Notification, Synergy and much others.
I've tried iPhone 3G S and Samsung Galaxy S, but when I found out a decent piece of hardware was holding -I'll say it again- THE BEST MOBILE OPERATING SYSTEM OF ALL!!! I drop both without thinking it twice. I don't need much apps to get along but it wouldn't hurt -at least at a customer perspective- to have some options. That being said, I will always buy first a webOS/enyo app than any other (well, android). But yes, the whole course summarized into webOS being the best mobile (SMARTphone and pad/tablet) operating system out there. Now if you say OS wise the aforementioned other OS are better the webOS... then I might take the quotation marks ("") out of some earlier statements (if you're "intelligent" enough, as you believe you are, then you'll know what/where I mean).
And in your honor: yes... LONG WILL LIVE WEBOS!!! (apps and OEMs included)

While I would prefer Enyo apps, I think this would still be a great plan and would easily fork over $10-20 for it assuming compatibility is good. I love webOS, but it's hardly a viable system at this point when the only devices you can purchase are the Pre 2 (my current device -- and I love it, by the way) and... can one even still get a Veer at retail?
People will sooner or later want (or need) to change devices, but will have no webOS options and thus our community will only grow smaller over time until new hardware surfaces at retail.
Homebrew is great and I'd love to see Open webOS running on a Droid 4 or something, but those that dab into homebrew only a small percentage of our entire user base. And if the average user cannot go into a store to purchase a webOS device, then they'll just go with something else.

This app brings us the potential to patch (but not fix) one of webOS' biggest flaws and it may give us a boost enough to get back into the game. I hope they finish and release (and continue to support) their app; it could really be a game changer.

Hurry up and do this Open Mobile!

Any new status updates on this?

Please, Please, Please let me get what I want! I speak for 6 Touchpad owners that all want this to move forward.

Has this moved forward at all, I bloody well hope so :-)

it's probably meaningless because no hardware manufacturers have plans to support any of these other platforms, except for Samsung/Tizen/Bada and Nokia with the occasional Symbian belle handset. Cracked Android Apps