Palm Responds to NaNPlayer / App Catalog Issue 66
We have already posted this as an update to the original story about the rejection of "inability to accept" NaNPlayer for the official App Catalog, but the more we think about it, the more we think it deserves a full post. Here's Palm's response to the entire issue, by way of Chuq Von Rospach, the Developer Community Manager at Palm.
He posted in our forums. We'll put his response, and our response to his response, and your response to our response to his response (in the form of your comments) ....after the break!
We have gotten a lot of feedback about NaNPlayer which is great. We love that people are excited about the application, and that developers are able to be creative on the webOS platform.
We reached out to JC (the developer) and discussed our reasons for not accepting the application at this time, but we also wanted to be open with you about this.
NaNPlayer is using APIs that are currently private because they will change significantly in a future release. Although we aren't able to support the functionality that JC needs right now, we are listening to the community to help prioritize which APIs and features we put into webOS.
Chuq Von Rospach
Palm Developer Community ManageWhile we can’t accept NaNPlayer into the App Catalog right now, we are not rejecting it, and we are happy for it to continue life as a homebrew application until we get to the point where we can release public, supportable APIs for the functionality that it requires.
Thanks for your passion, and we can't wait to enable even more fantastic creative applications via an expanded set of public APIs.
The main reason that NaNPlayer couldn't get it is that it's using an undocumented API to get access to the music on the Pre. Let's review the things that Palm is doing right (as opposed to Apple, of course):
- Quickly responding to what could have become a growing controversy
- Plainly and transparently explaining why the app couldn't be accepted
- Noting that when Palm has finished the APIs, they'll take another look
- Noting that they're happy to have it live on as a homebrew application
For those watching from home, that last is a clear indication that Palm doesn't seem to have any bones with sideloading applications - i.e. they don't seem to be likely to lock down the Pre soon.
Most importantly, though, is the thing that comes before all those points - Palm has a Developer Community Manager whose sole job it is to help out the developer community and engage just these sorts of issues when they arise. Palm's doing that from the get-go, instead of having the Senior VP of Marketing email developers and bloggers only after their blog posts on the rejection fiascos have reached critical levels.
Now, before we get too misty-eyed, we should note that it's still frustrating that Palm doesn't have a finalized API for something this basic and it's a bummer that they can't be flexible with Blubble, the developer, in the meantime. They've allowed other apps in that used undocumented APIs, Blubble notes, but the core issue is that the music APIs are still very much in flux and likely to change.
In any case, we're feeling pretty good about the future openness and transparency of the App Catalog. Things could be better, sure, but boy oh boy they could be worse.
66 Comments
Now let's just hope that Blubble can be patient for a while, instead of taking his ball and going home. If you're reading this, Blubble, I love your app and I think it's worth holding out for the app catalog. I don't want to lose you to Android quite yet!
I Second That My Pre Is My Mp3 Player Second 2 Being My Phone So A App That Flexible Is A Must Considering The Only Other Option
Nice to see the awesome power of the community and explaination from Palm. Really they were doing us and the dev a favor to not having to deal with painfull updates when Palm revamps the APIs
palm needs to hire more devs now, they are too small of a company.
Maybe now the people who were screaming Palm is Apple in the forums will relax.
Doubt it. People love to be angry about something.
I Think It's Just A Part Of Being A Power House. Seems Like Someone Always Has Something To Say When Your On Top Or On Your Way
thank you -
thats all i can say. wonderful community here, from palm, precentral, the hb devs and everyone else thats been waiting for webos/nova for a long time.
Palm did the right thing. And as a Palm community they also need our support.
Palm listened and responded and in this day and age that just doesn't happen. While I wish this app was going to get a wide release, I think Palm stepping up and letting us, the owners of their phone know why is just awesome! I am proud to say I own a PALM!
Don't worry. I never intended to abandon the app. I have always said that I would release it as Homebrew as a second option.
Palm had the opportunity to make this happen very easily. I would be happy to even release the app as a free trial in the meantime and promptly update it when necessary. My suggestions for a solution were simply brushed off by a marketing guy without further consideration.
I, as well as other developers, can be patient and wait for Palm to get things in order. I wonder how many thousand of potential users will just opt for other platforms where they can get the apps they want.
They may promise "months, not years", but opportunities slip by very quickly in this industry. Within that time span, there will be two new Android phones on Sprint with thousands of apps available. Let's hope Palm doesn't miss the boat.
With that, I'd just as soon leave the topic alone for now. I never intended for this to turn into a major controversy. I simply posted a thread about the situation and my feelings about it.
You are the man Bubble!
Thanks man, hang in there. Don't leave us just yet, hopefully like you said Palm looks into this in days or weeks instead of months. Your app looks to be awesome. Keep up the good work.
I wanna try your app. Where can I get it?
Honestly, I would say Palm did the right thing. The phone and software has been out for 3 months, and we have had several updates. Given the manpower they have, they aren't doing too bad. Give them a chance. Your time will come.
Thanks, Bubble! I can totally understand your frustration with all the time you have spent creating such a wonderful app. Palm seems to be working hard to make this an incredible platform but it is still a work in progress. I'm sure they will have things sorted out soon and will gladly accept your app/apps :).
Nice to see Palm listening to the blogosphere and trying to support dev's. Hope they get this thing straightened out with the API's so we don't lose Blubble or any of the awesome developers we got in homebrew and the official app catalogue. Good work precentral for getting us answers and thanks Palm for getting back to the developers in such a timely manner.
A big thanks to all the dev's who are investing time energy and of course money into developing some wicked apps.
I get to order my Pre on 09/19/09.
Can't wait...
Yeah, Blubble, please don't dump Palm yet. (Though I can imagine this must be an incredibly frustrating situation.) From the sound of Palm's comments, it really does seem like they're honestly willing to re-look at NaNplayer as soon as it doesn't use that API.
Please keep developing for the Pre! :-)
thanks dieter, my job of explaining the rejection is done.
it took a post from chuq, and PALM is the good guy again!!!
Abe (aka Abegee)
Definitely kudos to Palm, they handled this quite well (and the tacit acceptance, bordering on encouragement, of the homebrew community, is good news indeed).
Now, I'm going to play devil's advocate a little bit here though...
Why is using a "private" API a valid reason for rejection?
If someone uses a private API on Windows (which we're assured by MS don't actually exist to give them an unfair advantage over competitors, but I digress), isn't it the developer's problem when the app no longer works after an update to the OS?
Why should this be any different?
There was a thread a few days ago talking about the kill switch, and lots of people were screaming that a company, be it Palm, Apple, or anyone else, should NEVER be allowed to delete an app a user installed under ANY circumstances. If you were one of the ones arguing that, don't you necessarily have to argue against this now because what's the different philosophically between stopping an app from being installed and deleting it after the fact? (that we're talking about the official app catalog versus homebrew hardly seems to me to matter).
Isn't it two sides of the same coin? Isn't Palm in both cases making themselves the arbiter of what you can and can't have on your phone? Isn't that a problem in either case?
Remember, I'm playing devil's advocate here... I was OK with the kill switch during that debate so long as they are responsible with it (i.e., kill apps that turn out to have legal issues, or cause harm to the device whether on purpose or by mistake)... and I'm basically OK with apps being rejected for *some* reasons... but I think the list of reasons needs to be as small as possible, if for no other reason than Palm's own good! :) They need as many apps as possible, so they need to reject as little as possible, at least early on.
Now, using a private API... frankly, I'm kind of on the fence about that as a reason for rejection... on the one hand, Palm has a reasonable argument by saying the API is going to change and that implies a very high probability that the app will break, which wouldn't look good to users of the app... but on the other hand, isn't it the dev's problem ultimately? Why not let the app in the catalog as-is, let it break down the road, and be able to point the finger at the dev? Why would Palm even want that responsibility?
Like I said, I'm on the fence here because I'm sure they want the apps in the catalog to be of high quality so as to make a good impression, and knowing an app is going to break down the road wouldn't achieve that. I get it, I can see Palm's perspective. But I can also see a counter argument, so I'm a bit conflicted.
But what I'm NOT conflicted about is how Palm handled this... in short, *very* well. There may be room for debate about the validity of the reason for the rejection, but the fact that we know the reason and they were so forthcoming about it all, and did so quickly, to me is the far more important part. They aren't going to go the obnoxious as hell Apple route, not in this case at least, and that definitely makes me want to support Palm further.
The difference is fairy simple (I think).
If I develop under windows using an undocumented API and microsoft subsequently breaks that API then it's understood that resolving the issue is my problem. The customers will be chasing me, not microsoft.
On the other hand if Palm blesses it and puts it in the catalog and it breaks then people start complaining to Palm, demanding their money back, writing posts in Precentral demanding that Palm fix it or the Palm will never sell another Pre etc...
If you look at it that way then it's clear why Palm won't put it in the catalog, but would be quite happy for it to continue as a homebrew until they get the API sorted out.
The reason is that when it breaks (and it will - Palm are going to change the API) then the mob of angry users will understand that it's Blubble that they need to blame and not Palm.
I think you nailed it exactly... If someone pays PALM for an app (through the app catalog), they are gonna bitch to PALM when it breaks... Not the dev...
Okay, I'm sure that this app will be pretty good, but what's with all the people saying it's amazing when absolutely nobody has used it yet? Just wondering.
i think they are just sick of the native music app, and anything better is great.
I understand Palm's reasoning that they "can't accept" NanPlayer into the App Catalog at this time. However, I don't understand why they didn't put Blubble under non-disclosure and ask him to alpha/beta test the mediaDB API. Why didn't Palm give Blubble an estimate on when they thought the mediaDB API would be available?
With that said, I'd like to see Blubble put the NanPlayer up on Homebrew so that it can get a proper beta test before adding it to the App Catalog.
Maybe they did :) If he was under an NDA he really couldn't tell us much. He might not even be able to say he was after NDA.
On the other hand his (rapidly cooling) anger probably isn't the best way to get early access...
Generally you really want to spend time getting an API just right (as by publishing it you effectively promise to not break it any time soon) - so I'm not surprised their answer is basically they'll get to it when they can do it right.
Ok, WTF is an API?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=what+is+an+api&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=...
When is the HOMEBREW app store going to start taking payments? I would rather use it over the official appstore. I can load as many apps as I want without memory limitations and we don't have to wait for new apps to hit the official catalog.
That's my problem...I can't even download any apps from the App Cat due to the very limited memory. At least Quick Install and Preware take care of that problem.
Admittedly......I'm still trying to figure out what an API is!!! At any rate, the homebrews are awesome!! I am amazed at the creativity and skill of our fellow members.
Alright, fair enough palm. Thanks for being mature unlike Apple.
Hopefully finalizing the APIs are the last step Palm needs to finally sever the tenuous iTunes tether....
Why can't they sell all apps through the catalog but have a certification stamp to mark those that Palm deems safe? Let consumers decide what's safe.
One of my favorite quotes answerd your question perfectly "people are stupid" not sure who was the first person to say it though so I can't give them proper credit.
I also hope the two are related
(who else gets duplicated posts from the mobile forum?)
"For those watching from home, that last is a clear indication that Palm doesn't seem to have any bones with sideloading applications - i.e. they don't seem to be likely to lock down the Pre soon."
If that is the case, then why in the development kit does the user have to agree that they cannot distribute ANY application through ANY other method EXCEPT Palm's app catalog unless they ask for and get Palm's PERMISSION in WRITING?
Don't believe me? Look it up. You had to agree to it when you downloaded the development kit.
they have to cover themselves from any future legal problems
I have been told by more than one Palm employee directly that they are OK with (and support) homebrew. Now, I don't know how that would translate if precentral.net decides to start "selling" apps. I imagine Palm would take steps to "shut'r'down" at that point. I do not know this for a fact however.
I'm not sure they can really be "OK with and support homebrew" if they reserve the right to pull the plug on it anytime and anyway they choose. It would be like saying you have free speech, unless we decide you don't.
At most, I would say it is more like "tolerating" homebrew, as long as people don't cross any invisible lines.
I can't argue semantics with you here, but "OK with" and "support" were, in fact, the words used by the contacts I've spoken with. I think it's good news.
You are not free to do whatever you want. There is an entire TOS document that specify many of what can and can't be done. Heck, not even "free speech" is completely free (try defaming the character of someone who is law savvy and see what happens).
The speculation on my part comes in when I say that they may step in if P|C (or anyone) decides to start selling homebrew apps outside of the official app catalog (without Palm's consent). I have no idea if they will do anything about that, but the TOS "suggests" that it won't be tolerated.
Fair enough but I'm tired of all this complaining as if the phone has been out for years. To be such a small company they are doing really well and people are not really giving them their props.
Kudos to Palm for handling this and sorry to JC but this is understandable.
Anyone else wondering why the music APIs aren't finalized? My first guess is that they're not finalized yet because they may not have settled on the Amazon MP3 store for their music vendor. Perhaps they're talking to other vendors?
Just speculation. Anyone else think it's possible?
It may be, but how would the API's have a connection with which store is being used.
Because the Pre is a new and complex device and they just don't have all the internal works shaped into a semi-final state yet. Honestly, look how fast Palm's been coming out with WebOS updates. They are working feverishly to keep a great product improving in an extremely competitive market. Don't forget that before this year, Palm was all but dead. Less than a year later, they've resurrected themselves to the point of being a competitor worthy of comparison to the iPhone! For the time being, having a fast evolving product is great benefit.
From a business perspective, I respect points 1-3 as noted by Dieter and appreciate Palm's responsiveness. But their adding number 4 (respect for the homebrew community) truly impresses me as savvy. The good tinkering folk that like to quietly and respectfully screw around under the hood can be the life's blood in value adding.
I've seen the same (though not as transparent or open) from Microsoft regarding XDA Devs and it's been a big reason I've stuck with WinMo for so long. Something about it just speaks to the attitude of the company. Palm's even more direct (though subtle still) support with the new hotness is why I'm looking at WebOS and not an iPhone for my next phone. Good on ya, Palm!
i don't understand the tech talk about API's and i don't really care and neither do most people.
Bottom Line: the original music player looks nice but doesn't function nearly as well as an ipod and if it doesn't within a reasonable amount of time (and 5 or 6 months isn't reasonable) i'll be irrevocably unhappy with my palm pre experience and i'll be unlikely to purchase a palm when my contract ends in two years. simple as that. The clock is ticking.
I, too, would love it if there was a better music player app. However, if that's your dealbreaker then perhaps the device you seek is an ipod. I have over a hundred gigs of music and I still keep my ipod around for usage in the car and at work. I stood in line on launch day for a kick butt smartphone that would be better than my Treo 755p...and I got it! If a single app is the make or break for you keeping the Pre then I feel sorry for you. It is so much more than an 8GB mp3 player. WebOS is in it's infant stage and is still better than any other I've had, I knew I was getting a Gen 1 device and that it would grow over time, its sad that so many others didn't realize that.
the only reason iphones got off to their blazing start is the success of the ipod and all the people that said the converge the devices. if not it's just a phone.
the point is to converge the devices. fine it does other things and i too have hundreds of gigs and still have an 3 ipods. But if i have to carry an ipod and a phone 100% of the time then i will go for the iphone next time. even if you look at the iphone. music is more then a single app. the ipod is basically a the core of the device, it's the building block.
people can minimize the music player all they want. but iphones success as the leading phone is because of music and apps. period.
My mistake, I guess I was wrong. You need an iphone instead of an ipod. There will be a better music app one day I'm sure, give the Homebrew team a bit of time, but I stand by what I said earlier. If your need for the perfect music application is the pivotal point of your Pre experience then you are missing so much of what it means to have WebOS. Go after that iphone you worship so much, AT&T will be happy to charge you more money for it, plus charge you for turn by turn GPS on top of your monthly bill. I, for one, am very happy with my Pre and am able to control my impatience for a music player...there are so many other things I'd like to see way before that. I guess that clock is still ticking, hunh?
Maybe the music APIs not being finalized is related to the iTunes synchronization? Palm certainly seems to have a plan and the timing of the WebOS updates seems very well calculated.
Palm's response sure sounds like an update to the music APIs is eminent.
Listen, I want them to fix the music API, but I want the Synergy Google sync bug fixed waaaaay before that! Sorry JC.
Look, jhoff80, the app may be buggy as hell right now. But take a look at it on Youtube. Trust me. You will want it.
Highlights include
-Instant start up, no waiting for the app to index everything before playing
-Making a playlist is easy as hell.
-Music slider
-INcredible interface.
And Blubble, you think you're going to have this much fun in the Android app world? I don't think so.
What else. Oh yeah. When can I buy the app. Sorry, have I said that already. Like a thousand times?
For all it's worth, I still find JC's attitude and response immature. He still can't accept that they didn't make an exception for him.
Anyways, kudos to Palm for sorting out this mess and thanks to Dieter and company for being the bridge.
I'd be fuming too if my baby got denied for what I believed were stupid reasons.
Oh, and so would you.
GREAT to know that Palm is working with us and understands that we not only work for them but also assist in the advancement of Palm and WebOS. Helps to prove they really are better than that "A" company.
Thank you Palm
I still call BS. Palm is using the existing API, which means before the change it they'll have to modify their app, too. They could simply have made it clear to the developer that he'll face the same choice and worked with him in the future when they change the API. The developer could then make the committment to the purchasers of the app that he'll update it later. And users can decide whether to purchase or not based on teh situation.
And users can decide whether to purchase or not based on teh situation.
Hmmm...I'm not so sure about that. Judging from many of the comments made both here on p|c and in the app reviews in the app catalog, users tend to blame Palm (not the developer) for issues with an app.
Hi, I vote for Bubble to stay and be patient as he said he would try to do.
It is astonishing all the support he is getting from the community and should be flattered by the out pour of support for him and his app.
This is truly an amazing event.
Apple Developers should take notice of how this community sticks together and works together.
And how Palm has reacted!
Rob
PS Hey! Apple Developers, see what happens when you work with a company that is trying to be open and work with the community. How a great company treats their outside development community. Why not ditch Apple and come over the right side, and leave the dark side!
I would like to see this app loaded in the homebrew catalogue asap (preware installation). I would like to check it out.
Responses like that above help reinforce my decision to purchase the Pre. Quick, transparent, and totally committed to its public and developers.
but with only a half finished system respectively API. it's not that promising, that basic functionality is missing.
It's promising for as long as system updates quickly address the biggest issues that customers have.
I
Mr. Bohn,
Two things get my attention. First, this is a quick and meaningful response from Palm. Second, Palm's Chuq explicitly mentions (endorses?) homebrew apps. This indicates to me that Palm might be consulted when writing such articles as yours on the NaN app.
This would greatly alleviate any misinformation in the pre-fan community. Clearly they are watching. Seemingly they are not threatened. I can only assume that they like things as they are, and, more importantly, don't want to alienate their loyal base.
Hey, I don't even know what an API is, but why can't the developer just use a public API like Palm wants?
I am on neither side, just curious. I hope this guy blubbles and Palm work it out, it sounds as though he put alot of hard work into this.
From what I gathered on the forums, there is no way to read what music files you have without the private API. And what good would a music player be if it couldn't even read what music you have?