Round Table: webOS on the PC | webOS Nation
 
 

Round Table: webOS on the PC 29

by Derek Kessler Tue, 08 Mar 2011 4:11 pm EST

Welcome to Round Table, which is in fact not a table at all. Round Table is a continuing series on PreCentral where we pose a question to the staff and they provide their thoughts and insights. The question could be something simple like “Veer or Pre 3?” or something a bit more complicated, like “Is HP abandoning the ‘web’ in webOS?” Or maybe we’ll just end up chatting about how we miss the cartoons of our childhood. Today, we’re going to tackle something on the complicated end of things, and it’s something that we’ve been pondering since HP’s Think Beyond event last month: just how is HP going to get webOS on the PC?


Adam: When I first heard that webOS would be coming to the desktop, my initial reaction was a browser-based or emulator version of webOS that had full access to your Palm Profile (apps, contacts, data, etc) that simply ran on a computer and would somehow be able to take advantage of things like multi-touch and the gesture-area better than how the current emulator does (it doesn’t). However, after listening to presentations and interviews over the last couple weeks, it appears as if this will actually be incorporated into the OS itself and not just be an "app" that you run on the computer. This would also ensure that only HP would be able to offer this webOS experience on the desktop and not their competitors like Dell or Lenovo.

But what would that experience actually be? My guess is that there will be features that are incorporated into Windows (and can hopefully be turned off if the user doesn't want them) that will not only allow you to interact and update your Palm Profile data like contacts or calendars, but also give you access to any of your desktop-compatible apps, as well. Certain games that require the accelerometer, for example, may not be desktop-compatible, but why not be able to access games like Angry Birds or other basic applications? More important that just accessing your apps, the functionality that was introduced with the Touchpad to forward calls and text messages from your phone is the next logical step, this time forwarding them to your PC!

Also, while I doubt this will be in "phase one" of webOS on the Desktop, the next step would be the ability to have a Touchpad that will essentially replace your desktop PC, allowing you to run a Windows-based OS when "docked" with some form of webOS integration, and then allow you to detach it and give you the portability of a tablet running webOS. I know this isn't a new idea at all, but if done right, this could be a great way to truly bridge the divide between a PC and a tablet.


Derek: Before the Think Beyond event I was highly skeptical of HP’s plans to put webOS on the PC and on printers. I’m still skeptical about the value proposition of a webOS printer. But webOS on the PC does have me intrigued. I’m not interested in running webOS as a desktop operating system, but I see an awful lot from webOS that could make its way into the Windows operating system.

First and foremost are the apps. What makes or breaks the future of webOS is going to be the software experience, and I can’t think of any way that HP could leverage webOS into a superior software experience front is by getting webOS apps onto their tens of millions of desktop machines. Technically speaking (this is coming from one who is not all that technically minded, so just go with me here), running Enyo-built webOS apps on the desktop would not be all that much of a challenge. HP is developing all of their Enyo apps in an HTML5-compliant browser (Google Chrome, to be specific), and Internet Explorer 9 is going to bring HTML5 goodness to Windows 7 PCs world-wide. That’s not to say that HP couldn’t just skip over the support structure of Microsoft and run with a homebrewed WebKit layer to enable them to run webOS apps on the desktop. Some aspects of the webOS UI may find their way into HP PCs (particularly the TouchSmart line), but I wouldn’t count on too much of that.

The second step is Synergy. Right now Synergy encompasses just your basic PIM info, and having access to that on your desktop with just one log-in would be nice. But the real winner will be when your Palm Profile’s Synergy expands beyond just your calendar, contacts, and tasks. The magic starts with apps, especially Enyo. Buy an app on your phone and it automagically installs on your tablet and your desktop. Work in that app is automagically synced through the cloud between all of your devices. It’s a bit fantastical, but it would be a seriously differentiating feature for the HP ecosystem.

The last key to webOS on the PC is Touch-to-Share. Unlike apps and Synergy, Touch-to-Share is also part-hardware. I can see HP integrating Touch-to-Share sensors into all of their laptops and bundling it somehow with desktops, or maybe through the TouchStone v2. Either way, this is where that enhanced Synergy really comes into play. Touch-to-Share between your webOS apps (or Windows apps with applicable plug-ins, like Office) would trigger not only the transmiting of relevant info over Bluetooh (such as the current URLs), but also allow an app to share a file name for a PDF synced to the cloud, or save your game state to the server and automatically download it onto the tablet and launch the same game.

Really, in the end, it all revolves around Synergy.


Dieter: First of all, we are not going to see some weird dual-boot solution. If there is a dual-boot option, webOS will also run as an app inside Windows. I also don't think we're going to see a complicated skin on top of Windows that attempts to overlay or replace the Windows UI. We'll have a webOS app inside Windows.

From a technical perspective, I don't think it will be all that complicated: we have already seen webOS apps running and running quite well inside the Chrome browser. In fact, HP has been doing most of their next-gen development directly in the browser. So from a basic use case, all HP needs to do it create a custom browser for the desktop and have it run webOS 3.0. The only question is whether they will piggyback off of the open-source Chrome browser webkit framework or if they'll roll their own. I'm leaning towards the latter.

Will webOS be able to spawn multiple windows within Windows? Perhaps, but I think it will be radically easier to just run all of webOS on the desktop inside a single app window. That will allow them to continue to make use of their notification bar and menubar interface that we have already seen on webOS 3.0 / TouchPad. The other question is how deeply it will integrate into Windows. Will the Synergized webOS contacts app be available to Outlook? Calendar? Perhaps not with the first iteration - they'll need to see how popular it is. In the first run, as several PC writers suggested here, we're looking at something like Adobe Air but for webOS.

The next question is whether PDK apps (namely: games) will work on the desktop. I'm less sure about that - it will require significantly more overhead than the simple "webOS as a modified browser" framework I'm envisioning. 

Basically what I think we can expect in the first version is this: Imagine a virtual TouchPad running in a window on your PC, one that may not run PDK games. "Just a TouchPad in a window" may seem like not a big deal - but then again the iPad was "Just a big iPhone." Sometimes the simplest ideas turn out to be more compelling than anybody expected.


Jonathan: While it’s entirely possible that HP could view webOS as a complete Windows replacement, I would be very skeptical of such a strategy, unless HP goes all the way and turns webOS into just another Linux distribution. Even there, if businesses want to run off Linux, they already can, so why bother choosing a different Linux environment with fewer apps as the major OS?

Instead, I envision webOS for the desktop as something like Java or Adobe Air on steroids: an environment running within a larger operating system that enables write-once-run-many applications across vastly different hardware types. Unlike, say, Adobe Air, webOS was designed from the outset as an OS, and offers file management and other OS-type features. It could be much lighter in footprint and processor usage than the webOS emulator that now runs inside Sun VirtualBox, and could be given direct access to the file system, Internet connection, printing, etc. Add to that the cloud-driven potential of the cross-device Palm Profile many of us expect in webOS, and the possibility that webOS could be the standalone OS for a netbook, and I see real possibilities.


Nathan: I actually don't think that HP has anything grandiose up its sleeve this time, depending on what you consider grandiose. WebOS will probably become the replacement interface for their TouchSmart computers. It is absolutely perfect for this purpose, especially on the new 610 Series with a display that tilts down at the perfect tablet-like angle for using its touch screen interface.

It will most likely be the same webOS 3.0 that runs on the Touchpad. I am sure that webOS apps will run on it the same way they do on the Touchpad, and if it is technically possible, I’m sure we will see Touch-to-Share working on their TouchSmart PCs too. So whatever you are working on at your computer, you can tap your Touchpad to it and take it with you to the couch, then tap your Pre 3 to your Touchpad and take it on the road with you. Putting webOS on the TouchSmart computers will make people want to buy those computers, and then playing with those computers for a while will make people want to buy TouchPads and Pre 3 smartphones.

Beyond the TouchSmart computers, I doubt there will be a webOS emulator or webOS web apps or anything like that. HP is not going to spend resources on building something that has no real practical purpose and will not go far to promote their brand and products. They want you to go out and buy a new TouchSmart computer, Touchpad, etc., and putting webOS apps on the computer you already have is not going to help with that very much.

There really would not be much of a reason to want webOS on your computer, outside of the novelty that would wear off fairly quickly. The simple question is, what can you do on webOS that you can’t do on the computer? For any of the apps you have on your webOS gadget, there are any number of counterparts for your computer that do the same thing. Now netbooks, that might be a different story.


Riz: When thinking about webOS on a PC, I think it’s best to look at some of the TouchPad’s features for guidance on how it’ll look. Bearing that in mind, I envision it being a pretty thin layer in the Windows environment, with similar sharing of calls and notificaitons between devices, and the music, photo and video hubs making their way over pretty much intact. In my ideal world, webOS would exist live in the background with only the “Just Type” bar visible from the Windows desktop. Typing in that would bring foward the all the instant searching UI goodness we know and love. I think given the other UI paradigms of Windows, some of the organizational principles of webOS (stacks, side-by-side cards, etc) might give way to simple windowed instances.

The webOS App Catalog itself poses a unique challenge, and I'm not sure how HP should tackle it. Fact is, there are plenty of Pre users who didn't know about the catalog, and this'll be even harder to discover for a webOS naive Windows user. If they just make it an icon on the desktop, it'll look like bloatware. Inelegant. If they don't put some special emphasis on it, tons of people will never see it. A walkthrough video on startup is one solution, but I think they need to go further. The best idea I can up with is to modify the Just Type bar to include a tiny clickable "app catalog" shopping bag on one side, but even that has shortcomings.

Finally, I deeply hope that the webOS layer is tightly integrated into the UI, and is set up as an "opt-out" for end users. Research has shown that the status-quo is what the majority will keep, and that'll ensure webOS stays present on all those PCs HP is shipping.


So there you have it, our thoughts on how to do webOS on the PC. The options are wide open, and we're sure that are plenty we haven't explored. Sound off in the comments below with your theories.

29 Comments

It's interesting the number of different view points there are even from the writers/editors on P|C.

The feature I would enjoy the most would be the call/text forwarding to the PC. I think that would be a truly standout feature. I'd love to be able to set my phone on its Touchstone when I get home and not have to pick it up again until the next time I'm ready to leave (using the TouchPad/PC in its place).

As for the actual user experience of webOS on the PC, I'm not really sure what the answer is. I think if it was basically a webOS emulator with access to the Palm Profile, it would not be all that intriguing. I'm not really sure that the card interface (which is amazing on the phones/tablets) would be as natural or fluid on a PC where a mouse is used. On the other hand, I'm not sure how else you could integrate webOS and actually make it useful.

Great thoughts and opinions guys.

I think it would be neat to see webOS on a tablet.

How do you like it?

Whatever webOS can do, windows can do it better. I see no need to have webOS on a laptop or desktop computer.

HP is veering way offtrack IMO. Better to focus on windows 8.

Although I agree with regard to application capabilities, as a consumer, it would be nice to have access to my mobile apps and data from anywhere - including a PC.

ViewSonic is shipping (starting today) a dual booting tablet with Android and Windows 7.

10.1-inch touchpanel (1024 x 600), 1.66GHz Atom CPU, 2GB of RAM, Bluetooth 2.1, 802.11b/g/n WiFi, a 1.3 megapixel front-facing camera. Android 1.6. microSD slot and a copy of Windows Home 7 Premium (with a 16GB SSD) or Windows 7 Professional (with a 32GB SSD). $599 and $679 price tags, respectively.

----(Courtesy of Engadget)

I would like the best of both worlds. A webOS "OS" and webOS as a Windows app (and Mac).

I'd like the webOS as a replacement for Netbooks

I would like it to replace HP's "Quickboot".

I like the ability for a Windows app, so that I could get the benefits of the TouchPad without actually buying one.

HP could add "touch to share" by selling a touch-to-share/bluetooth usb dongle.

For all it would be great to get SMS messages, and run the same apps. I would love the ability to edit Flash Cards on my PC or Netbook and sync it to my phone.

Granted it would be a lot easier for webOS to run as a Windows app, versus a entire OS (given all the hardware drivers, etc.) But HP could do it for HP hardware as a "quick boot" option.

I like the quick boot idea. Whatever HP does, they can't ever go back to a 5 minute boot time. That kills me watching it on the pre. actually 7 minutes my bad. lol.

webos needs to be loaded and available on the windows machine in 30 seconds or less. I think going forward the old long boot times are unacceptable especially now with SSD drives.

I was thinking 5 to 10 secs boot.

I think you guys are missing the point. Think iTunes for WebOS. The ability to have webOS and Synergy and your Music and your apps all in one place and syncable. And have it be not as clunky as iTunes.

Except FAR LESS BUGGY AND BLOATED, please.

whoever said windows can do it better, do what better? torture us with 10 minute boot up times with random processes doing god knows what? force us to learn about stuff that no normal person should have to learn. Make us install hours of updates and beat **** malware all the time.

I think about all the weird goofy tricks and weird bugs we just have to deal with because its windows. After using webOS and an iPad now for over a year i don't want to go back to complexity ever again. Let the system engineers and developers deal with those headaches.

Take my 90 year old granma for example. She just wants to play slot machine ganes, doesn't even want the internet. I tortured her with windows for years making her learn stuff she does not want to learn and doesn't need it. Thats one good thing about the ipad and thats what hp needs to do to hit a homerun on webOS. they need to make it as simple as setting the interface to webos and then upon bootup never show windows mumbo jumbo again unless you need to switch back. thats how i would do it. Don't even show the windows logo/boot screens. Log us straight into webOS. and build it inside webOS that if you ever want to go back to main interface (windowS) you can.

I hope you're kidding...

Why would they be kidding? Do you understand what 80% of all PC users actually do with their PC. Hint: All of it can be done with a Tablet running WebOS.

HP would be foolish to have this as an HP box only option. The ability to install webOS Desktop on any existing PC would be a huge driver for the mobile devices. This is even more true as they've said you'll be able to work with MS Office docs on the TouchPad, out of the box. One of the biggest reasons I've not gotten an iPad is because of how hard it is to sync Office documents with a PC -- it's more or less a convert and send transaction.

Imagine not just Adobe Air, but DropBox/SkyDrive being replaced by webOS Desktop. If you mark a document for synchronization, it appears on your HP desktop, Dell laptop, TouchPad, and Pre3. If you make a change in one place, it's propagated out to the others. If they can also sync my Google Contacts to Outlook, they'll have a near perfect business/personal productivity platform. If they can include running most webOS apps on the desktop, they've totally outclassed Android, iOS, and (the increasingly irrelevant) RIM.

Can you imagine having ultra-thin laptop/netbook with webOS on it? The actual "touchpad" would "capacitively" control the screen. I can envision swiping cards on the touchpad of the laptop. I would buy that over the TouchPad coming out this summer......heck, I'd probably buy both types....

The idea of webOS as a dual-boot, an emulator, a skinned layer, or just an app on top of Windows sounds all half-baked or whishy-washy. Some of these examples seem to diminish the affect webOS would have on the other OS on the laptop/computer. The next logical step from phones to tablets would be to netbooks/laptops with webOS as the single OS on the new hardware. Ask yourself, what how has the dual boot worked on Macs? Windows on laptops and such won't disappear for awhile, but the potential of webOS on newer hardware will creep more and more into mobile devices and non-mobile devices. Any hybrid form would only and can only be a stepping stone to a much better UI experience..

I think it would be easily accomplished with a TouchPad and a good case with BlueTooth keyboard.

Great discussion. Although I agree webos is a good os, it is designed for a touch environment not a pc. Reinventing the desktop would be great but I'm sure HP isn't planning on that. The oppurtunity is connecting all those new smartphone users to an ecosystem that links all aspects of their computing life. Many have tried to make accessing data easier, but people spend more aand more time managing info across computers and networks than ever befoe. Synergy is the concept to focus on here, not operating systems. Let linux evolve on it's own for that.

Well said. The webOS look and feel is great (love the swipe), but that's just candy to me. It's the integration that sets webOS apart and is the productivity/money maker for me. Extending that to the desktop (and servers) opens wonderful opportunity.

I have an HP touchscreen tablet computer that I love. It runs Windows 7.

What is awkward about it is syncing that is not cloud based. I have nothing against keeping my addresses and calendar in the cloud (I use Google). But I want constant access to things like memos, which I depend on to hold all the details of my life.

And I want access to all of them on my phone even when I can't get a signal and on my desk and tablet computers when the network is down. My Palm Pilot used to be able to do that!

Having those apps - constantly synced through the web like my calendar and contacts are - would be wonderful.

My music - like itunes and ipod do - would be awesome.

That can't be done now through itunes or through windows. It could be done with a specific sync function (that could be turned on and off) within a webos corner or my desktop and tablet.

My view is quite simple: if Windoze is involved in ANY way, I'm GONE! I have no Micro$oft software now & never will. PERIOD!

Many people I know aren't "Techies". They use PC's for email where they can read attached photos, Office, and PDF files. Oh, and they browse the web. Much beyond that is too complicated, since they would have to know what program to use for what and how. And that assumes they can still find their program Icons where they were the last time they used them.

Nevertheless, some of them use non-WebOS smartphones for more things than their PC's, because it's in their pocket. They figure out how while waiting in waiting rooms and lines.

It's these non-Techies who WILL BE BLOWN-AWAY by JUST-TYPE in WebOS on their PC. It "makes the computer go away" so they can find what they want, especially after they link their multiple contact, email, and social accounts from "everywhere" through Synergy. They'll never look back. Suddenly you have hundreds of thousands of computer users already using WebOS just dieing to get those HP smartphones and tablets that work just like that "simple WebOS on their PC". And they'll have the same data and apps! Wouldn't that be nice?

So of course WebOS needs to run as a Winows app, and later become available to buy for any PC. Down the road they could even make a version for the MAC, and even for Android phones! How cool would that be?

HP can make lots of money while making lots of people happy. (I dream a lot).

All of this sounds great (I especially like Nathan's realistic viewpoint). But whatever happens, if it is mildly successful, I would foresee google taking the idea & making it available to all. If that happens, then why would most people want to be tied to HP branded devices/hardware. Google would make it universal on any PC and every variety of android device. Of course, I bleed webOS, so I'd still be there... :)

Well, why do you have so many people for round table?
I'm doing Chinese translation of this article, and this is killing me~!
This is our Chinese webOS blog:
www.phonekr.com

I suspect the implementation of webOS on HP's PC platform will be something like Dell's "Latitude ON" instant-on flash based access tools solution. An alternative quick-boot OS environment for accessing email, docs and web without having to boot the primary OS. There may be hooks to webOS in the primary OS, but seriously, what's the point in that on a PC?
See: http://latitude-on-flash.com

I think that WebOS on the PC should incorporate three things. First WebOS on the PC needs a iTunes/App Store solution. Second WebOS on the PC needs to incorporate Synergy to sync the files you care about on you PC to the cloud. And third WebOS on the PC needs to incorporate gestures similar to that of multitouch touchpads and apple magic mouse. I think you add those three things and WebOS on the PC will be a winner.

PC Mag ran an article last week called "The Next Computing Battle of the Decade". They actually had some positive thoughts on how HP may be a winning dark horse with this strategy in the long term...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2380619,00.asp

I see a duel boot OS using WebOS as the main operating system. If you want to open an icon that's a Windows file, it flips you back to Windows. People want to get away from Windows if they can.