Should Palm Have Re-Enabled iTunes Sync? 62
Our pal Rene Ritchie at sister-site The iPhone Blog has put up what he admits is "an editorial of the scathing variety" about the just-re-enabled iTunes sync functionality in webOS 1.1 and we have to admit, we think he may have a point here.
At issue: Palm playing chicken with Apple when it comes to something as important as syncing media seems like a recipe for a bad user experience. "Can I sync music to my Pre today?" ... "Dunno, let's see what the latest in the escalating war of software patches is." We'll let Ritchie tell it:
What’s so wrong about it? It doesn’t serve the webOS/Palm Pre user. Bottom line, no company should ever base a user experience on something they don’t own or license. Regardless of caveats like version numbers, Palm telling Pre users they can sync with iTunes when Palm can’t guarantee it will work going forward is irresponsible.
Truly, though, you need to go read the entire article - Ritchie makes a fairly strong argument about us users being hurt by this back and forth.
Sure, you're reading this blog so you 'get' what's going on here and are more likely than the average user to know what the present state of iTunes syncing is. But would we be better off with a sync experience we know Apple won't break? Should Palm create an in-between software app? Are the many 3rd party software solutions out there good enough?
62 Comments
Anyone who calls Palm the bad guy here is *nuts*.
Interoperability in the consumer electronics world is one of the single most beneficial things consumers can have. Palm are making Pre interoperable with iTunes. No third-party software middlemen; you just use iTunes' own interface, which is how the iTunes experience is meant to be.
Apple are deliberately breaking that interoperability. They are actively taking capabilities away from iTunes users.
And people are cheering this on?
UNBELIEVABLE!
Exactly!
you don't see microsoft breaking the pre's syncing ability with windows media player. apple needs to stop crying like whiny little brats and get over it!
I have to be honest, that iPhoneblog post came across as a whiny Apple fanboy and nothing more. Giving users more choice and ability to control where/how they put the media they own is never a bad thing.
I fully expected people to get pissed but I didn't expect them to be anybody except Apple employees - then again I think Apple fanboys think they work for Apple sometimes.
Absolutely agreed.
Pre users don't have to worry "Will my Pre sync today?" just be wary about upgrading iTunes. Rene, while makes great posts, seems to be very insecure about his iPhone and the status it gives him. Sheeeit, I'm thankful for the Pre. If it was never announced then the upgrades I got on my iPhone wouldn't have been nearly as thorough as it is now.
I must agree with Anonymous.
There was a whiny aspect to the full article. Some points were decent but it's a rare mom , indeed, who willbe savvy enough to choose and use a Pre but not enough to realize that it syncs music, not movies, via iTunes.
I think Palm's choices on this point may be debatable, but I'd like to hear what their reasoning is - although I have my suspicions. In the end, Palm is simply enabling one of multiple available options. It's not the end of the world.
Oh yeah. And that bit about not basing the user experience on anything you don't own or license made me wonder how Synergy with Facebook, Google, Wikipedia etc fit into that worldview.
"Palm telling Pre users they can sync with iTunes when Palm can
That's a helluva lot of votes in a very short time! This is the first blog and forum type site like this that I've ever frequented. Looks like many others are also enjoying it.
I dont use Itunes cause I always thought it was a big piece O' overated poo. I think its awesome what palm is doing. Any one that owns a pre should not be using Itunes anyways. Amazon is a much better company. There are tones of third party software that works fine. I need a option that says "I think its awesome but screw apple and Itunes."
Power to the people!
Power to the Pre
Preeple.
Am I the only one still looking at my Pre's 8G of internal memory and wondering why the heck everyone thinks syncing tons of stuff to the Pre from any software is a good idea?
Maybe I just don't understand how everyone else is using it, but if I were to sync my music library to my Pre, it'd fill up before 2% of the library was in there. Pretty pointless.
ppl have live with 8gb of info for a long time, they can handle it.
yeah i don't really get the fuss either
Sorry but there isn't a device out there that can hold my whole media library. Last I checked it's about about 200g. Just in mp3 files it is around 60g and growing daily(transferring my vinyl to digital). I think you will find that the average person is happy with around 2g to 3g worth of music and maybe a few movies adding another gig or 2.
YOU GOOD SIR, just hit the proverbial nail on the head.
Agree 100%: WHO... FRIGGIN... CARES? All this fuss over
I guess I consider thousands of hours of music enough for me.
Fuck apple and their fan boys.
he isnt worried about the end users, he is worried that apple is showing their true colors (they are just like MS if not worse) and he doesnt want ppl to know the true apple.
yes they should enable it just to be an asshole but
yes they should make their own media manager cause itunes sucks.
btw, i voted for the second option, but palm should creat their own or partner with someone who want to do this.
i understand why they havent (time and money) created their own yet, but hopefully they will one day.
Of course leveraging the iTunes platform is a smart move by Palm. I won't claim to know the legalese surrounding the move, but I think that it'll force an interesting dialogue concerning what is the number one venue for electronically delivered music sales and how that platform has to interact with others.
The editorial over at your sister site is not very well written in my opinion, due the the overwhelming amount of conjecture in it.
The author assumes "ego" is the biggest motivator behind the latest move by Apple, which is juvenile.
To think that this move is anything other than calculated business practice is alarming.
I think it's great. It shows how arrogant both of them are. Apple's pouting, saying, "We're taking our ball home so no one else can play with it", and Palm says, "Yeah whatever, we'll TAKE your ball."
No user is going to lose from this as a bad experience. If you ever catch yourself considering, "Can I sync music to my Pre today?" then you're either a) not paying attention, b) don't actually care enough for it matter, and/or c) going to install an alternative anyway. No one's going to stop using their Pre because they don't know of it'll sync with iTunes today. Probably mostly because iTunes isn't that great anyway.
I see this as only a win for Palm and Pre users, as Palm will get more and more press and exposure from the feud. And with that come more Pre customers, and with that more Pre apps and other resources.
Keep it up, Palm. Forget this Apple tool.
If Palm is so quick to fix the broken iTunes sync, why can't they support us users who hate iTunes by supporting .m3u playlists and playlists on the go.... DUMB!! Stop fixing iTunes sync which will undoubtably break again and support a long-term solution!!
You nailed it. I'm having fun watching Palm mess with Apple but I had to dust off the iTunes to sync playlist and I don't like that. I hate, hate, hate and then hate iTunes. It hogs memory, starts slow, won't let me control my media the way I want to and searches the media library non-stop to tell me that I might like some artist I've never heard of. ITunes is nothing but a marketing tool for the evil iStore. I hate it almost as much as I hate the crappy running windows version of QT. Palm keep playing messing with Apple but either give us support for other playlists or maybe an app.
Yes, they should continue - if only becuase it is seriously ammusing that this bold little company is 'sticking it to the man.'
However, I don't use iTunes and Third Party Apps work just fine.
Has Palm or Sprint advertised the Pre as iTunes-compatable yet? I mean, their commerials don't say anything about what the Pre can do, and the copy literature doesn't promote iTunes support, so I don't see any harm in the re-enabling or future disabling of iTunes sync support.
It was in most of the press releases from Sprint and Palm before launch and if you do a google news search it's one of the most covered features of the Pre. It was(is) list in the how-to that can with the Pre for syncing media to the device. As far as ads no it has but most of Palms ads are just creepy and don't talk at all about what the phone does. Sprint's ads are better but still seem to talk more about the "Now Network".
Don't really care because untying the device from iTunes was one of the main selling points of the Pre for me. There are many great options for syncing with the Pre and iTunes is not necessary. It's nice that it works for some folks who have iPods and want to use iTunes but I think Apple has leveraged their position with the dominant PMP to push their software and by extension their music store. I don't think it's a particularly good media manager or music store so I welcome any development that introduces more strong players to the field.
Ashton Tate (of dBase fame), didn't like the competition from FoxPro, and attempted to sue over "owning" a file format. It backfired. The courts ruled that not only did they not own the file format rights, they didn't own their own software because portions were based on previous public domain software. Though there are differences, this whole thing reminds me of that in many ways. Heard of Ashton Tate lately? Apple should take a clue from that, interoperability is what the consumer wants, and eventually will turn against those that try to block it.
ashton tate? wow the memories.
;)
That whole thing makes me laugh hard.
People who don't have no clue about what copyright laws say actually comment on what is a hack, what is fair and what isn't.
You guys should be aware that reverse-engineering a software in order to provide compatibility with another device/software is NOT considered as a hack, and is even allowed.
If it wasn't, say goodbye to your all-in-one remote controls, a lot of the freaking things bundled into Apple's OSx to make it work with Microsoft's (like SCP protocol)... and oh yeah... that thing Palm uses to sync with iTunes... like Mike said in the Palmcast is an open-source project... So it's Apple VS OpenSource... I'm going to have a major laugh.
Exactly Skykeeper!!!
Apple modifying iTunes so that it can't interoperate with the Pre would be the equivalent to Microsoft modifying Windows so that it would no longer interoperate with the iPod in favor of their Zune product.
BTW, I always just copy my media to the the Pre like a hard drive and dislike all types of sync software in general. Even more though, I hate not having choices! I don't want the Apple Big Brother monopoly telling me to listen to music I have to use their format, their sync software, I can't use stereo Bluetooth headsets, etc, etc... DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER APPLE!!!
I imagine that from Palm's perspective, Apple and Palm don't have to go cat and mouse ad-infinitum, trapped in an epic, lifelong battle.
Instead, Palm just has to keep up with it long enough for there to be a critical mass of Pre owners and sympathizers to sway public perception against Apple's anti-competitive behavior. Ideally, this kind of ballsy behavior would influence other phones/digital audio players to jump on the bandwagon and hack iTunes support as well. I'm guessing that Palm hopes that with enough loud voices, Apple will give up and back down.
ALthough I agree that it would be cool if it were more legit! And although I dont use ITUNES, I would prefer to have an option to sync it if I were to use it..
APPLE isnt going to let the PRE have SYNCING legitely without paying for it. Its like watching free movies online, Id rather some than not at all
Way to go Palm! But the point isn't really just enableing iTunes, palm's overall point is to step on the toes of Apple, and get them into a legal battle. That is where Palm would really make its biggest gains.
See I've wonder all along if this was the case. Palm has stepped right up to the Apple line and the sand and took a commanding step over the line. First with the UI and use of the pinch and stretch gestures that Apple has claimed they invented and the bump at the end of a scroll. Then the whole iTunes thing. I've been wondering if they are hoping Apple calls in the Attorneys so they can dust off all those touch pattens they have and collect some of those iPhone and iTouch dollars. The thing about all this is I read some where that the iTunes sync was in fact a Linux script that has been around for a while in the wonderful world of open source. See this all maybe simply be Palm saying why waste the time developing software to sync the Pre when we can do this and get uses of software everyone already knows and have used.
Oh another thing ... the 2 YES votes are pretty ill-thought out though... the 2 NO votes are good.
Your only asking about the mentality of the USER with the 2 yes votes... keep YES #1, but make yes #2 something like "Yes because some syncing is better than none"
I dont blame apple for being monopolistic, they just want to keep the money in their court. You would too.
Yes but in a free market, where is the line drawn? iTunes is the largest music store in the world and controls last I heard 20% of the market. Making it difficult for users to use other devices with iTunes is either bad marketing or a way of them trying to control both the sale of the files and devices and locking all other devices out. Unfair business practices? Is bundling your web browser with your OS and locking out other browsers unfair business practices? Do I blame them for trying to control the media market? No but does it make them evil? Yes!!!!!
I dunno about this, While I applaud and respect Palm for unabashedly pissing Apple off in it's effort to improve the pre's user experience, and I agree with those who say that if either company acted like an ass in this situation it's Apple (but really, who expected them not to?)...
I do think that to the end user, palm's whole solution to the syncing problem just reeks of sketchiness, having a hacked together sync that only works through deception and that Apple can break so easily is just sketchy, it feels like one of those cheap chinese phones that's really just a fake copied version of a popular phone, or something, even the fact that it says "syncing ipod" is a little sketchy
I understand the appeal of using the number one music managing software as the best way of syncing with your phone but it still just feels like palm couldn't afford to make their own solution so they just stole one from apple, it makes the phone feel a little unreliable and cheap
Of course most people won't care that much and overall it might just be better because of the ease of use it offers
I look at it this way. Palm is trying to offer a service to their customers by being able to sync with itunes. Since there are other options to sync your music that work fine with the Pre, those will always be available if people don't want to get caught in the pissing match between Apple and Palm. Yes it has those elements which I actually enjoy but I don't see that as a bad thing on Palms part. They may be trying to turn this into a classic Apple vs Microsoft battle with Apple being in the ironic position of being MS. I don't even think Apple is bad for trying to block it. The only part that could be bad for Palm is if this type of behavior becomes a legal issue that could hamper the Pre. Maybe Palm is trying to bait Apple into suing them hoping that it could open a can of worms over patent issues with the iphone that they believe they could win as they stated back in February. Just a theory and probably not a good one since Palm isn't exactly flush with money for a legal battle with a giant like Apple. I don't even use itunes anyways so this whole matter doesn't affect me but its fun to watch.
I'm surprised by the poll results. Palm should do exactly what Apple did when it let Windows users in on the iPod. License a 3rd party (DoubleTwist) until your software for a particular platform is ready to go.
Palm really should build something like blackberry desktop manager... it could sync media and photos... almost a missing sync if you will. Are they worried about cannibalizing Mark/Space?
Pre sucks... If you were foolish enough to go with sprint and not get the iPhone I'm glad these little annoyances are getting the best of you. Enjoy 2 years with that piece of trash that is already obsolete in every way to the 3gs
FAIL, go troll somewhere else.
Yah, enjoy your 2 years of dropped calls, douche bag.
I don't think Palm should have "fixed" the iTunes sync issue or even list it as a feature from the beginning if there was a chance Apple would remove it. If Palm talked to Apple ahead of time and they ok'd it, then it would be fine. But by doing it on the sly, they're going to be hurting their users who use iTunes on a daily basis. Everytime Apple releases a new version, those users will not be able to sync their music (at least the way they're used to doing it).
We all know the reason Palm included this feature was to try to steal away iPhone users who loved using iTunes. But unless they can figure out a way to prevent Apple from "fixing" iTunes, this game they're playing is not going to end well for them.
Sounds like there are a lot more whining Pre fanboys over here than on on the iphone blog. You people are such a small part of the marketplace but yet you are the worst fanboys. You raise a piece of plastic junk over your head with a pretty cool interface. Woo-hoo! Just hope that piece of crap doesn't break while you are holding it up so high on a pedestal.
Apple is not the enemy here. Palm continues to be shady while creating a hack that is not legit within the marketplace to thumb their noses at Apple. They should just license a third party and do it right. Hey Palm, go ahead and continue to toy with Apple. Palm will lose this battle in the end and they may lose more than just their shady hack.
The fact that you felt the need to come here and look for self-validation in the comments is a testament to your insecurity with your holy iPhone.
Remind me what the back of the iPhone is made of? That's right. Plastic.
I don't see Apple suing anybody. Perhaps because they've been infringing others' copyrights and claiming opensource as their own?
Yeah. The iPhone has a nice hard plastic backing to it. Nowhere else though. Anyone who makes a smartphone anymore with touch capabilities needs to use glass. Who wants something that is going to scratch like crazy because Palm was lazy in the hardware design using crap materials. I would love to see a glass screen and some nicer plastics being used. The hardware seems like an afterthought. Some would argue this is a gen-1 device but Palm had almost four years to perfect the hardware since they are copying everything else from Apple.
I have no insecurity about my iPhone. I think the Pre will only make the iPhone better and vice versa. Palm is acting extremely immature for fraudulently representing the Pre as an iPod. Use a third-party to set up the process legitimately. No issue after that.
I don't think there will be a lawsuit. But who is to say that Apple won't update the software and wipe any Pre clean that attempts to sync with it?
I would guess at least 2/3's of the iPhone users I know and work with have screen protectors on their "invincible" glass screens. I have one on my iPod Touch, because yes, the screen will at some point scratch.
If a screen protector is considered necessary regardless if it's a glass or plastic screen we're talking about, then your point is moot at best.
Plus, the back of an iPhone scratches like crazy, as do the polished metal backs of an iPod so perhaps you should take off the rose-tinted glasses, iFanboy.
You make a lot of pretty stupid assumptions there. Sure the backs of the iPhones and touchs scratch. That is if you don't take care of them and are wreckless in handling it. The Pre will scratch if you just look at it. My point is that the iPhone's build quality is superior to that of the Pre. This is a well known fact. Again you have cool operating software but junk hardware.
Sent from my iPhone
Excuse me, sir, but your superiority complex is showing. So very typical of the iPhone people.
What "assumptions" did I make?
I think this is great publicity for Palm! The more Apple puts up a big fuss about it, the more the general public is going to wonder why Apple feels the need to block this phone from Itunes.
Even if Itunes ultimately wont work with the Pre, this "war" will make sure everyone knows about the Palm Pre, and that Apple thinks the Pre is a real competitor.
lol@palm. keep going. i dont like itunes, but its nice to keep itunes compatibility as palmpre feature to win over more iphone customers. everyone should start doing that, maybe eventually, iphone customers realize that iphone is not the best device ever made.
I don't use sync applications, simple USB drive mode works for me. But I find the back and forth amusing even though it's only occurred once thus far.
This feature does not mean much for me, but I do like the drama of it.
The iBully fanboys just can't resist! Heck, if you substituted "Macintosh" for "Pre" and "Apple" for "Palm," their posts read just like the Microsoft Windows troll posts of the 1990s when Apple was the underdog.
It is pretty funny. Apple has become exactly what it has always claimed to stand against -- the all-powerful monopoly bully with legions of brainwashed retards they can dispatch to brainlessly defend the All Powerful Empire.
Apple, not IBM, is the Big Brother from their Macintosh commercial from all those years ago. How ironic.
I do not use iTunes and am currently using MediaMonkey to great statisfaction.
I don't think this is really about Palm syncing with iTunes at all. I think it is mostly a free publicity thing. Just look at what made the news articles all over... it wasn't that WebOS went to 1.1 and had new features. Every article is talking about Palm re-enabling the iTunes sync AND making a direct comment back to Apple. Apple clearly has the edge in terms of news articles on a regular basis, I rarely see anything about the Pre and usually when I do it is in regards to the iTunes war.
I think Palm is playing a very good game. I don't think it is taking extended periods of development time for them to play this cat and mouse game. At the same time Palm is forcing Apple's "monopolistic" hand.
True Palm should be working on their own software while they wage this war, but there are plenty of 3rd party options that get the job done until that time.
As it stands, I don't see a real downside for Palm on this issue.
Legally:
They are using open source and if Apple challenges further, I don't think it will be cut and dry... in fact it could come back on Apple.
User Experience:
Plenty of options and for those die hard iTunes users, rejoice while it lasts. I don't think it will turn people away from the Pre wondering will I be able to sync or not, because it really is a mute point.
Press:
Palm is getting everything they could dream of in terms of coverage and buzz. At the same time Apple's biggest defenders are those under iAnythings brain washing.
Overall:
It is an interesting Fencing match that keeps the buzz going for the Pre while it settles in to it's own.
I say "Go Palm! Go!"
iTunes is mainly used by the pc market which has a larger market share then apple does in the pc market, so i think they were unclear on how to market the sync feature and decided to piggy back on apple for some odd reason. when windows media player would have been a better choice.
Personally, I think they are both in the wrong here.
Why would Apple deliberately break an interface to a device which will make them money by selling songs from their store? The point that I don't think Apple gets is that no one is going to go out and buy and I iPod exclusively because they want to use iTunes. However, there are people that have non-apple devices that would like to use iTunes. So how can Apple see this as cutting into their iPod sales? They should really see this as an opportunity to expand the use of iTunes.
Likewise, why wouldn't Palm go in and make some kind of agreement with Apple so that they are notified of future interface changes so they make sure they can roll out updates to their devices before the changes impact. I do not want to have to stay on some back level version of iTunes just to support syncing with my "player of choice". If I must make the "investment" of moving to another tunes manager, I would rather make that change now and not have to worry about my interface breaking some day.
I'm sorry, but Apple (Steve Jobs) promised that iPods would work with other library managers, and that iTunes would work with other MP3 players. And it did for a short moment. Then, after the hotcakes were selling, they went into lockdown mode.
Apple is hurting itself...I'm sorry, but subscription services, and direct from artist sales are the wave of the future.
Apple is making the mistake of their ego getting in the way; they should just have ignored the Pre. By doing this, they by default make it legit and give it publicity.
I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here.
A lot of people compare how Palm is syncing with iTunes to how other vendors such as RIM are doing it (via some third party interface).
I repeatedly hear people whining about how Palm is "lazy" and should "write their own media software instead of piggy-backing off iTunes".
These people quite simply are oblivious to / ignorant of the paradigm of the Pre. They're stuck in an old paradigm. (This is the same old paradigm that people live in who want palm desktop sync, etc.-- it's not bad or wrong to prefer that method of working, it's just not paradigm the Pre was designed for.)
Palm's goal is not to reinvent the wheel with regards to applications that people are already using and familiar with, but create a device that can integrate as seamlessly as possible into the systems they're already using. Gmail, Facebook, Exchange. ITUNES. It only makes sense that Palm would try to offer iTunes integration, because they know how many people already use iTunes to manage their music. It's not a function of laziness. It's a function of user experience being the priority.
Who wants to use Palm software to manage their music when they've already got an extensive library managed by another app? Do you know what a pain that is? Who wants to use TWO libraries if they still have an iPod they want to use? (This never worked for me-- there was a time when I owned both an iPod and a Sony mp3 player, and Sony's software was just crap, look where they are in the portable music market now.)
Seems like a given that iPod users will continue to use their iPods and therefore continue to keep iTunes around anyway, this saves a lot of headache to not duplicate the function of music management software.
How elegant would a 3rd party interface to access iTunes be? Not nearly as transparent and elegant as the current solution, even if some people prefer something different like DoubleTwist. Palm's goal here is not to try to rip off Apple or anyone else, the goal is to create the a fore mentioned seamless integration with users' current systems.
Now, here's my other thought. As I mentioned earlier, people always point out that other vendors have interfaces for "syncing with iTunes". I submit that the only difference between Palm's solution and others' is how we think about them. In essence they all use some form of software to accomplish the task of leveraging a user's iTunes library. It's just that the software used to get the Pre to sync with iTunes is not installed on your desktop computer, but rather on the Pre itself. The Pre doesn't by default show up as an iPod device, you flip a switch or activate some software, so to speak, to get it to sync.
Self-righteous Apple fan-boys can complain all they want about how iTunes is designed to help sell iPods and that what Palm is doing is shady, but I submit that a) it's not fundamentally different than what anyone else is doing that Apple is *not* trying to break (a la third party interfaces installed on the PC) as far as enabling other devices to leverage iTunes, and b) there has never been any stipulation that only iPod owners / users could use iTunes. It's been available for anyone to use to organize their music regardless of what portable devices they may own (or they may own none at all) and regardless of whether or not they own a Mac. (Here's a wild idea-- what if how well the Pre plays nice with a Mac actually supports the ultimate goal of selling more Macs?)
Apple will continue to dominate the portable media player market, and iTunes will continue to support that endeavor. But we don't all want iPhones or AT&T, so it's nice that we can still use our iPods and Pre's with the same music library. I just think it may be a bit late for Apple to backpedal on just how proprietary and exclusive they want their music system to be.
There are really only two options that Palm has in regards to iTunes...either trash it and call it outdated, or work with it and make the people who legitimately bought their music through the iTunes store happy. By making iTunes work with webOS, it allows Apple to hold onto that customer base even if they decide to give up their iPhones or use their Pre instead of their iPod.
Yes, it ruffles the feathers of iPhone zealots...of whom you know that if the tables were turned, they'd be right where the webOS people are. They'd be screaming for their phone to sync with whatever that option would be, too.