Submitting to Palm's App Catalog: How difficult is it? (Updated) 86
Now that webOS 1.2 is out and the App Catalog can support paid apps (the first of which we're expecting - you guessed it - on Thursday), the next big question is how will Palm manage what looks to be a massive influx of developer requests. There are sure to be some growing pains, but Palm is hiring some great people to work with develoeprs.
Even so, a blog post from Jamie Zawinksi, aka jwz, is making the rounds this morning. In it, Zawinski describes his "Kafka-esque nightmare" of trying to get his two free apps accepted by Palm for the Catalog. Given that the last time we saw an App Catalog kerfuffle the story turned out to be a little more nuanced, let's see what the story is here.
Update: Billybennett points us to new Palm employee Ben Galbraith's response:
While a blog post isn’t the right avenue to talk about all of the issues that Jamie brought up, we’re following-up with him directly and will bring it to a conclusion. We obviously goofed in how we communicated with Jamie, and Dion and I take some of the blame here as our staff had been waiting for us to come on-board to get to some of these items.
Definitely go on and read the whole thing (holla for the Homebrew shout-out), but the overall tone is good: Palm's on it, "we'll fix what's broken."
There are definitely some miscues on Palm's part to be found in Zawinski's post - including a response that appears to have arisen from Palm's previous hedging on whether or not sideloading (which you know as Homebrew) would be acceptable. Since then, although Palm hasn't made an official statement, Palm appears to have backed away from the precipice of demanding developers only distribute through the App Catalog (although it's not official, there are plenty of apps in the App Catalog right now that are also available outside it).
Zawinski also takes umbrage about the fact that a verified PayPal account is required (which requires giving PayPal you checking account information) despite the fact that he doesn't intend to charge for his apps. Zawinski also chafes under the $99-per-year fee that Palm is charging developers.
I could be on board with Zawinski's complaint about requiring a verified PayPal account - that seems odd for people who don't want to get paid. However, the $99-per-year fee is pretty much becoming an industry standard: both Apple and Microsoft charge similar fees to their developers for their app stores, even for free apps. In fact, if you can take that leaked developer PDF at face value, Palm is only currently charging a $5 annual membership fee - so that $99 price point is probably still in flux.
Additionally, it also looks like Palm tried to get Zawinski on the phone (albeit after asking for an NDA), but Zawinski refused. Again, it's reasonable to refuse an NDA, I suppose, but you have to wonder if there wouldn't be some way to work that out.
The comparison here has to be with Apple's submission process, which I have to say sets a low bar - Apple's developer relations are so Kafka-esque that I found myself engaged in a dramatic reading of Kafka's "Before the Law" parable on the iPhone Live Podcast. Give it a listen or give it a read and the parallels will be pretty darn clear. But does Palm stoop to that level?
I'm leaning towards 'no.' Clearly there are some growing pains with the App Catalog and it would be awfully nice if Palm could have hashed them out a little earlier. Yes, the App Catalog is still officially a 'beta' on the front end so it's safe to assume that things are still 'beta' on the back end for developers. Palm needs to clean some things up, but for now I think it's best to counsel patience and communication, as frustrating as that can be.
Then again, given how badly Palm needs to build a robust developer ecosystem, any misstep or even the perception of a misstep can be problematic. What do you think, is this a tempest in a teapot or a foreboding sign of things to come?
86 Comments
comments on - sorry about that.
that guys responses have been nothing but rude even when the new palm hires have contacted him.
its their game, if you dont want to play by their rules go make your own game.
developer fail.
whining little bitch.
Just so we're all on the same page. JWZ is Jamie Zawinski and he's a damn fine developer. He was one of the first hires at Netscape and basically did the entire unix port of netscape. He was also one of the people most directly responsible for the foundation of the Mozilla project even though he divorced himself from it relatively early on (in '99). He was also responsible, in large part, for the development of the Lucid IDE which was based on Emacs. This eventually turned into XEmacs. He also developed and maintains the XScreensaver collection. That's he wants to develop for the Pre is a big deal and, regardless of his... less than nuanced approach to 'inefficiencies'... he's really the kind of developer Palm would want on board.
Also, while I know Jamie, I'm not one to blow smoke up his ass. He's really that good even if he can be bullheaded at times. This bullheadedness has served him well in the past so I don't expect it to mellow out anytime soon.
And his big Ego is putting him at least as far in the wrong as Palm.
I would not necessarily disagree with that assessment.
Personally, I've had a great experience with the folks at Palm. My only problems have been delays between hearing from them, but I understand they are swamped.
The two big stories about problems with the App Submission or Approval process show two individuals who seem to refuse to work with Palm or cut them any slack for creating this system from ground up.
This developer is the same one who refused to put a decimal point in his tip application, because wanting accuracy wasn't a valid enough reason and those wanting it were cheap. (Or perhaps he couldn't figure out how to do it?)
I submitted both a free and a pay app in the catalog. I understand that signing documents about each of our rights is required. This is business. I also understand that Palm shouldn't waste time right now with a developer that is trying to force everything to be his way, when the same effort could put a few more apps in the catalog from developers that actually want to work with Palm.
I agree. I have an app in the Submission process as well. I haven't heard from any reviewers for almost a month now but my contact has been very good at getting back to me.
Working in the software business as my day job, I can understand how Palm could be overwhelmed just now. Getting upset about their delay's will get you nowhere!
You know, I'd agree except that they have asked me not to make any changes since I first submitted my app (about a month ago) unless they asked for it.
I could have spent about twice as long as I did developing the app if they had been up front and not told me to freeze my app weeks before they were even going to look at it.
In the meantime, I haven't been working on it because I don't know what the review process _is_, and I've seen people burned by apple. I'm afraid they won't accept my app at all, so I'm not putting in much more effort until it gets accepted.
The WebOS platform has lost many of _my_ man hours due to the delays. I'm sure I'm not the only one. The total man hours lost for the platform must be huge.
Wouldn't it make sense for Palm to forego the $99 fee for the first 6 months or so to bolster the app catalogue? They'll still earn from all the paid apps. I know why apple charge it, but Palm could take the lead on this and give developers and indeed WebOS some grace to grow...
ist it $5 for the beta ppl?
I think I read somewhere that the fee for the first year is $5.
I don't know if the NDA allows us to describe what we paid for the App Catalog submission. But I know I didn't pay $99. I see another value floating around that looks familiar, possibly because I ate a foot long at SubWay? Not sure.
You, sir, made me chuckle. Thank you :)
wait, I just bought a "$5 dollar foot long" from subway! ;-)
anyone think they know when we'll be able to reapply tweaks? or a guesstimate on the timeframe of an updated webos quick install? is friday or earlier the best we have.. if so.. i'm fine with that.. just wondering..
unrelated. . . why ask that here? use a forum or read the BILLIONS of times this has already been asked & answered (See preCentral I can act like you guys too *Gentle ribbing of P|C commentors but serious note to the poster* )
anyone think they know when we'll be able to reapply tweaks? or a guesstimate on the timeframe of an updated webos quick install? is friday or earlier the best we have.. if so.. i'm fine with that.. just wondering..
I read his blog post. As others have said, he seemed more like a child that just wanted everything his way. I was definitely less than thrilled with his criticism of the sideloading methods promoted here on PreCentral.net. C'mon...it's really NOT that hard, but I guess if he things so, that might explain his difficulty in playing nice with Palm.
Palm, don't waste any more time with this developer.
... jeez.
It seems to me that he just doesnt really like all the concept of an App Catalog/Marketplace. He even refuses to talk to them about solving his problems under NDA by saying "I obviously said no". Is fine for him, is great that he has an opinion and so, but I dont really think he is telling to current developers, more or less aware of how the palm catalog would work, anything really worthy to know that Palm hasnt really say already.
Actually Apple or Microsoft must seems far more nighmarish from those lenses.
A bit of a whiny bitch, if you ask me. No offense.
It cracks me up that someone in 2009 is that afraid of Paypal having your checking account number. Is he just as afraid to pay somewhere using a check? That has your signature, checking account number and routing number right on it.
Guy needs to relax...
PayPal has a history of freezing people's accounts without warning, as well as other shenanigans, including debiting people's checking accounts (again without warning) for fees they they think they're owed, which are not always legitimate.
Actually, I'm a developer that has created a PayPal account to work with Palm and other companies and I'm TERRIFIED for PayPal to have my information and handle my money. They have a history of keeping thousands of dollars for up to 3 months, on a whim. They don't have to abide by banking rules, because they are a service, not a bank.
That being said, if it is what it takes to work with Palm, I'm willing to do it with an account that isn't tied to my personal finances at all and only as part of my company. This keeps PayPal from mysteriously draining my money away, when they feel they are owed an illegitimate fee.
Yeah, opening a new checking account would be the best way to go. Use Paypal for the $99 fee and nothing else.
That is also where profits from App sales will be deposited. I will scrape from PayPal to the account quickly and then to an account PayPal can't touch as well.
I think this is all about jwz drawing a line in the sand (I'm all for that in most cases) and then refusing to consider what might appear to be an amicable solution. The end result is that everyone loses in this scenario ... jwz doesn't get his app in the Catalog, the Catalog has one less app and most people won't find it because they may not know about this place.
What struck me, however, was this statement from his blog ..."The other small code changes you asked for, I don't agree with, and I'm not going to do."
I don't know what the code changes are that they want ... but if it has to do with my experience with Tip Calculator, I'd have to say they are right in asking for those changes. You see, I can't seem to be able to delete TC from my Pre. Tried and tried and tried. It disappears for one second and comes right back.
It's their Catalog and if you want it there, you are going to have comply with Palm's "guidelines". Just like you would have to with Apple.
I have been responding to various people on that post, and my take on the original post is this:
You don't get to have everything your way in the world anywhere. Sure, you can have things exactly as you want it. You just don't get to be in the App Catalog.
On some level, yes, it's unfortunate that Apple pushed the entire smartphone market in this direction. I'd rather there be an App Catalog *AND* a side ability to put any old app on your phone that you want. Yes, the Treos used to let you put any old app on. It wasn't particularly easy to find "Any Old App" and do so. The makers (Apple, Palm, Google, WinMo (ha), RIM (double ha)) make it easier and more convenient to find apps and get them onto the phone and they provide a back end.
Ideally, the system would work like this:
Palm doesn't charge developer fee for totally free apps. By totally free, I mean no ads or anything. If you wanna be all "free software forever!" that's cool, no Paypal required and you don't have to pay for the app to be in the catalog. Sure, somebody has to pore over the app and make sure it functions decently and isn't malware, but... Palm, take the hit.
After a certain timeframe (a year?), sideloading of apps becomes more practical. The problem is... the carriers probably won't like this (especially Verizon, over whom everybody seems to be creaming their shorts). Sorry, this is how the marketplace is. Yes, it sucks that Palm closed off the ole "email an IPK" trick, but people on JWZ's blog seem to indicate that Android offers you the option of being able to install your own software (with the typical dumb enduser warnings).
The thing is, Palm is basically a brand new company having to catch up to a company that has a two year lead on them. They're doing it with limited funds and resources, and I expect they're doing the best they can. They wanted to make a product that can compete ably with the iPhone and various other market offerings, and so far they're doing a great job. Is it perfect now? No. Will it get better? Yes. Right now, they're busy doing things like hammering down the underlying OS so they can release more APIs to app developers, not worrying about some guy writes tip calculators and immediately shuts down the conversation when an NDA comes up.
(Side: If someone wanted me to sign an NDA before talking to them, I'd probably wanna talk to them about the NDA first. Or after a further period of time, I'd come back to them and see if the NDA was off the table.)
This whole thing to me is emblematic of the whole open source/free software movement - it is quite the populace of didactic coders who expect everybody else to think exactly like they do. It's why Linux has been such a niche product for years and has only in say, the last two years, gotten to a point where it's a viable and interesting product, mostly as the basis for two smartphone OSes and a really viable server/prosumer OS. That said, it so is not a home user OS and it seems it never will be until some people with some sense come along and teach these didacts how to deal with the rest of the world. (Or at least tell them what the rest of the world actually wants from them.)
Palm: Hire me. Let me work from home. ;)
The carriers don't want sideloading? What about the Treo? The entire history of PalmOS has been that users could get apps from anywhere and put them on their phones/PDAs themselves. That plus the dedication to backwards compatibility meant that PalmOS had a huge ecosystem of apps to choose from. One of the reasons I went with the Pre to replace my Treo was my hope that those principles would be carried forward to the new platform.
I don't think it's mutually exclusive, I think it's just a matter of priorities right now.
I agree. Palm has been straight with users and developers. It is irritating that we are not rewarding this good corporate behavior by expressing a mite of patience.
I have to say being just a normal consumer, (although I do know business) I did not do much research on the Palm Company. After this post, I feel a little more confident about my purchase of the Pre. I was starting to get worried, but hopefully they get in right and it is the phone I imagined it to be in the next few months.
My biggest problem is how he has made Palm look to the tech community. Looking through the reddit comments, everyone is taking his word at face value, they aren't digging more into the story.
I have to side more with Palm on this one, it's their store. So long as they don't suddenly crack down on the homebrew side of things. The developer fee is there, it's your choice if you want to distribute it for free or try to recoup some. And given the homebrew community is out there, I don't see why he's complaining, just side step Palm altogether.
Though, again, I would really like to hear Palm come out and embrace homebrew apps. It would give developers more piece of mind
I totally agree, all the pre haters out there have been taking this guy's rant and running with it all day as a way to shrug off Palm as a company that is in decline and might as well die already. I hope attacks like this at our community fail.
Oh yeah, one more thing, a tip for Precentral: prove him wrong. Find a way to make the homebrew catalog (and how to get it on your phone) easy to find on the site and follow. I don't remember who's coding the whole app, but last time I tried it, it was pretty much to the point of being "easy", it just needed a few more nudges.
A link to a thread in the forum does not suffice.
I do not think the world will miss yet another clock and tip calculator. Especially since there are so many better options available created by other, more talented developers.
The irony is that JWZ's app is probably exactly the type of thing Palm doesn't *want* in their app store. You can't beat Apple on quantity of apps at this point, but you can certainly make an argument that a few hundred or a few thousand *quality* apps is better than 30,000 bits of crapware.
The 30,000 number is certainly unmanageable for end users, and although I don't have an iphone, I somehow imagine there are (for example) 57 tip calculators, all of which do the same basic thing that you can do with the calculator app and a little common sense. Given how easy it is to code for the WebOS, palm is probably afraid of how crappy 30,000 apps would end up being.
We're still in the early days when there are only a few dozen apps to try out, and Palm is striving to get developers on board and get them *paid* so that they can keep the OS alive. It's no surprise to me that Palm is not going to make it a priority to let one of the first few "showcase" apps be from a single developer who wants to give away a tip calculator that can't even deal with decimal points!
I brought that up to him on the site. He said his tip calculator was "first."
Not sure how he knew that, but I don't believe him.
He has the mentality of a child.
First rhymes with Worst. Coincidence?
Darn. One less Tip Calculator in the App Catalog.
+1 on just about everything above.
I wish I knew the status of my submission, but other than that communication has been prompt and helpful. Personally I think Palm is doing an amazing job, in an amazingly short time-frame, with limited resources.
And his whole complaint about PayPal is just silly. Palm is using it to pay developers, but it is also using it to collect the $5 beta fee for the year. I personally think it is a smart way to handle both functions with a single stone.
So, rock-on, Palm. (and please accept my submission!)
One thing that I noticed in the posts around this issue, is that Palm's SDK License Agreement does state: "4.3 Applications Can Only Be Distributed Through the Palm Application Catalog.". This may just be a legalese CYA kind of thing, and they've certainly been friendly to Homebrew (so far) ... but it is a little disconcerting to see that in print.
Palm has made a distinction between distributing and testing. Although, I agree it makes a unknown area where apps are not accepted into the App Catalog, but aren't really being tested anymore, but distributed.
I agree with the general consensus that seems to be coming out of this. But I do think jwz raises an interesting question: do the restrictions that the App Catalog puts on developers make it incompatible with the GPL?
As I understand it, the GPL requires that if you distributed the program, you must also distributed the source code AND allow others to modify and distribute that code. By not allowing the original developer to distribute the binary or the code other than through the App Catalog, it seems incompatible with the GPL.
Is this a wrong interpretation?
A link in your support scene that points to a source code website is all that is needed for the source requirement of the GPL. Or is could be argued that the source is distributed on the device when the ipk is installed. Just go in there and get it. :)
I'm specifically concerned with the App Catalog's terms of service section 4.3 (see below). My question is whether or not this is compatible with sections 4, 6 & 10 of the GPLv3 (see below).
It seems to me that the GPL requires that any licensee be allowed to distribute both the application and the source code. And that the restriction in section 4.3 of the app catalog ToS means that you can't release GPL code via the App Catalog because it takes this right away from all recipients of the code, including the original developer.
Here's the relevant part of section 4.3 from the App Catalog's ToS:
4.3 Applications Can Only Be Distributed Through the Palm Application Catalog. Developer acknowledges and agrees, that absent a separate written agreement with Palm, Developer may not distribute any Application except as allowed by Palm
Anyone sitting here slagging JWZ for being a mediocre coder or "who needs another tip calc???" is completely missing the point (especially because JWZ cut his teeth long ago, and has more developer cred than most anyone else out there).
The point is Palm's blind following of Apple down this pathway where Palm has a monopoly on all software distribution for WebOS devices, unless developers want to limit their audience to those power users willing to install the Homebrew packages on their systems.
Open-source or not, this isn't the way it's done in computer circles, period. You don't go to Apple to buy all your software for your Mac, and you don't go to MSFT to buy all your software for your Windows box. Why should we be forced to accept this monopoly-over-distribution that exists with cellphones?
Apple started this game, but there's no reason Palm has to imitate it. In fact, there's a great incentive to not imitate Apple here. Just because it works for Apple doesn't mean anything - Palm, at the moment, looks like a poor imitator of Apple, especially because the App store is at the moment, at best, lame as hell.
You don't have to like JWZ, but he's an excellent canary in the coal mine. When he gets cranky about things, it's usually for a good reason, and indicative of a real problem. Yes, he's a single developer, and his apps won't make-or-break the Pre. But how many other developers have taken a look at the same situation, and made (or will make) the same decision, because Palm is following this strategy?
I think he does have a few points. He also loses any credibility on them when he whines about Palm not playing games his way, while at the same time being unwilling to talk or work with them about it. Then goes crying to the internet over it.
Sorry, credibility lost. His bullheadedness or ego is just getting in the way.
Credibility lost to you, maybe, but it's jwz. A lot of other developers listen to jwz, probably more than listen to Palm's PR, and to deny that is to have your head in the sand.
In particular, I bought my Pre in part because Palm was making public statements saying that sideloading would be supported, and the clause preventing that in the SDK has prevented me from downloading the SDK. I was glad to hear jwz got them to say "oh, ha ha, we weren't really serious about that", but that clause is still in there. Maybe it'll go away when the App Catalog gets out of beta, and maybe it won't. Until it does, Palm is not fulfilling its promises.
I have know of JWZ since at least 1999.
He is one of the forefathers of Open Source.
Just like anything posted by Richard Stallman, you have to take his posts in context.
However, that said, I want open source code to be available on the Pre. His issues are issues EVERY open source coder are going to face. He may seem bullheaded, but unless someone is bullheaded, every single open source developer will run into the same issues he did.
Do they violate the GPL or Palm's license?
If I want to distribute a Free program, why does Palm need access to my bank account?
As a developer of Free software (http://l7-filter.sourceforge.net), as well as, hopefully, paid software for WebOS, I applaud him for his bullheadedness. Palm has not thought those issues out and needs to do so.
Without bullheaded people, Linux would probably not be in the state it is today and WebOS and Android would probably not exist.
I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV or the internets, but it seems like a violation of the GPL if the App Catalog distributes GPL licensed software w/out allowing that software to be distributed elsewhere.
However, if they refuse to accept into the App Catalog GPL licensed software, then there's no violation.
Remember, /me not a lawyer. Take these comments w/how ever much salt you require.
The only "strategy" that seemed to be a problem in the end was using PayPal. There was confusion at first, disagreement, but he was called directly from a 'higher up" who wanted to resolve the problem. He wanted to do things his way. Not how the world works.
He's being a ridiculous child.
And one thing just came to mind: JWZ's tip calc brought up a lot of teeth-gnashing because he didn't care to implement the features that other people wanted on his app. But he posted the source, other people made the changes, re-posted his app, and everyone went their separate ways.
Under the conditions of the App Store contract, this isn't possible - it violates the clause about the App Store being the sole means of distribution. And *that* is absolutely unacceptable.
Moreover, does make the App Catalog incompatible with the GNU Public License (GPL) which has several requirements for distribution of code licensed under the GPL, including:
The right of the recipient to get the source code
The right of the recipient to modify and redistribute the source code
The requirement that these rights be extended to any subsequent recipients of the code.
I'm not a lawyer but these three requirements *seem* incompatible with the App Catalog being the only distribution channel for the code.
This is the same guy that had a hissy fit and lectured people for dared to ask that a Tip Calculator (you know, something that calculates MONEY which is formatted in $X.XX format traditionally) to actually include that dreaded, horrible thing...a decimal point.
The horror.
He lectured, ranted, [u]insulted[/u] and yelled at users of his app for daring to ask such a thing because he felt they were "Cheap skates".
Yeah, forgive me if I give Palm the benefit of the doubt of trying to be reasonable and understanding then this guy who treats even his essential "Customers" as if they're pieces of trash.
That's funny. If you're not a cheapskate you probably don't need the calculator at all - just throw the waiter enough that your sure it's enough - you're not a cheap skate, right? So what if you over-tip?
I agree that some of Palm's App Catalog policies are unfortunate. ($99/year to distribute even FREE apps?!?!)
However, this particular developer appears to be kinda off the deep end... His Tip Calculator app, for instance, only allows whole dollar amounts and he appears to be on a crusade to force the citizens of the world to round up all their bills, including tax and tips.
From his website:
"Look, it only does whole numbers because if you insist that your tip be accurate to the penny you are a cheapskate weirdo. Here in the Colonies, we use paper money, not coins. If your bill is $44.22, just enter $45. Don't go all Scrooge McAsperger's on us, ok?"
Paper money? Apparently he has never heard of credit and debit cards and other modern forms of payment :oP. I was half-expecting his Dali Clock app to round up to the nearest hour...
Hmmm... the solution seems simple.
Paypal account - yes it should be required. It also gives Palm additional proof they're dealing with a real person and by piggybacking on the Paypal process and it makes it much simpler to accept contributions from non-US developers without Palm needing to work out how to verify identity in lots of countries. They need to validate identity for copyright problems etc.
Also just because someone does free apps today doesn't mean they may not want to later.
Fee? No as long as you only have free apps in the catalog. Why? While it's true that each developer represents an overhead the free apps add significant value to the platform (and to Palm's bottom line).
The only restriction I'd put is that free is free - not beg-ware, not donation-ware, not nagware etc. If you hope to make money from the app by any means then you pay the fee.
As for the GPL'd apps - I'd suggest allowing alternate distribution for source/app under an open source license as long as it (or a improved version) is not offered on a for-fee basis outside the app store - this is to stop someone offering a 'free' teaser/limited version on the app store (sticking Palm with the costs) while selling a full version another way and cutting Palm out of the loop.
Dang! This whole discussion is most entertaining!
Learning a lot and getting some laughs. Pretty hard to beat!
Having respect for someone, as most of us do for jwz's contributions to the computing world, is very much different from agreeing with his arguments. One does not necessitate the other. I have a great deal of respect for my manager at work, he's very smart and capable (yes, this is a *manager* I'm referring to!) and I valuable his thoughts... but we frequently disagree on things and argue about them pretty strenuously (part of what makes him a good manager is he's receptive to such arguing from those reporting to him).
The point is that those taking jwz's side simply because he's jwz are being foolish. You can certainly put more stock in what he says than what someone else might say, that's fair, but that doesn't mean you should blindly accept everything he says as gospel. I've seen that in a lot of posts today, here and elsewhere.
My own personal opinion? I'm a little dismayed that Palm couldn't bend on the fee/PayPal part of things for a developer wanting to release a free application. I think they should. In fact, I think their policy should be that until a developer submits a for-pay application they shouldn't have to pay a fee or provide a PayPal account and tax information. I don't really get that requirement, that seems silly to me.
The rest of it, without knowing all the details (what code changes were requested?) doesn't seem too far out there. The version number thing... the app catalog itself is still beta, maybe Palm wants all apps to have a
Seriously, this guy can go **** himself.
http://twitter.com/jwz/status/4455819770
"@bgalbs no, I have no interest in wasting my time talking on the phone over this. just post my apps already. what more is there to say?"
Wow! I don't care who he is, what unmitigated arrogance coupled with a prima dona attitude! Yuck. That's just so "It's my way or the highway because I've got clout and a bully pulpit so JUST DO WHAT I SAY!"
To put that in context, you need the request: http://twitter.com/bgalbs/status/4455651650
So someone just started at Palm and wanted to talk to sort this out and was told off. Way to work with Palm. Sorry, this is where JWZ proved he is just an egotistical jerk.
A few of his points are valid but they are just completely overshadowed by his what is seemingly his ego. From what I have taken from these comments he is a good coder and has contributed in the past. Yet most people don't care or don't know this and will only take away the whining and b*tching that he is doing. He has seemingly ruined a big part of his image with this imo.
By reading how some are commenting in Ben Galbraith
all he had to do is create a dummy checking account and thats it instead the three year old came out in him lol too funny
heres a solution. We need a advertising/publisher for free palm apps.
I've watched this whole fiasco unfold and while it's nice to see Palm has some flexibility, everything else about it is pathetic and has been blown waaaay out of proportion.
Valid points or not and programming capabilities aside, it's sadly unfortunate that an arrogant and juvenile "your-rules-don't-apply-to-me" blog post got the response that could have been achieved with civil, professional communication.
It's becoming more and more commonplace for whiners that cry loud enough (and broadly enough) to get their way whether their argument is reasonable or not.
Only bullies resort to such tactics.
Maybe I'm biased; I don't see any need whatsoever for a tip calculator. Perhaps if the focus was an app that had some semblance of value I'd be more sympathetic.
I agree this guy is just crying.
This just gets more entertaining by the minute ... turns out the "whining little bitch" is an "open-source pioneer and legend". And, he manages to "ream" his co-pioneer/legend on his first day of work. Now I'm wondering if the timing isn't just a little too coincidental and if this missive (missile?) wasn't aimed directly at Palm's new dynamic duo?
Right on.
Fully agree... I actually came across the blog first and then checked out Dieter's comments here.
To be fair, there were a few valid points - Paypal for free apps - but these were dwarfed by what was an otherwise childish, arrogant, and surprisingly paranoid rant.
And who doesn't have Paypal these days? My grandmother? Wait... nope, I set her up with an account last year so she could buy shizzit on Ebay.
NDA's? Puhleeze! I've signed and required many myself, and let's be honest: while NDA's are typically required when entering in to good-faith discussions they are notoriously hard to enforce (prior knowledge claims, speculative breach of contract damages, etc). If he's done a fair amount of commercial development (which he has) he knows this. The tantrum is certainly excessive.
My suspicion is that he avoided the NDA (in bad faith) for fear of being then unable to blog/rant about the ensuing discussions.
And regarding the homebrew community: he initially acts as if it doesn't exist (Palm extorting $ from developers by controlling access to the only distribution channel) and then responds very dismissively (and misleadingly) when someone else finally brings it up.
One poor schmuck emphatically states over and over that he is not a "tech" guy and had no problem quickly installing filecoaster and downloading some homebrew apps, only to be repeatedly flamed and labelled an "atypical user" (but I'm not! I swear!).
(Edit)
One final point: let's do some cost/benefit analysis here. We have a great product (admittedly with some initial build issues) and what looks to be shaping up in to a great framework (webOS). Both released by a once innovative company that's - in a very real sense - hanging on by a thread. And his first impulse is to bash this effort because it doesn't conform to his particular world-view? Really?
Sorry for my own rant here, but JWZ's attitude really got under my skin. While he may have contributed greatly "back in the day" he's looking none-too-impressive in the present.
*raises hand*
I am the "poor shmuck" in question. I did stress that I am not a programmer. I am something of a "tech guy", having worked in IT in the past, been on the Internet for 17 or so years, and having loved computers since Mom brought home a C64 when my age was in the single digits.
I am somewhat atypical, but there are quite a few tech-savvy people around these days. And if someone isn't, they can hear about homebrew and get a friend to install FC for them (I have done this for one friend) and from there, no more work is needed - FC will even update itself through the catalog.
I've not messed with Preware, and it sounds a bit trickier than Filecoaster, and Filecoaster suits my needs, so I have no particular desire to at this point. And I don't think it's *that* hard - the last time I did it a few weeks ago (for Kevin), it seems to be down to download a file, run it, it downloads some files and... then you're pretty much in. Yeah, you need Java. And yeah, I think you have to tweak a file or two. I honestly don't remember, because it didn't strike me as being that arduous.
As I said above, I think Precentral could do a great service my making homebrew/FC more prominent and the coder of FC could do well to make the app even easier to install. What methods the coder could use I can't say without some research, but I'm sure it's doable.
Considering that we're just shy of 4 months in and somewhere in there the "email yourself an IPK" hole got closed... I think the whole thing is going fine.
The whole problem seems to be a lot of people want to run before we're even walking. That and lot of general "open source" attitude.
I could write a very long post on my blog about this, or do a solo podcast (something I've been pondering for a while) or a Youtube video (preferably with my shirt off!), but the odds are I will spend the evening a slave to the TiVo.
Very funny: I could write a very long post on my blog about this, or do a solo podcast (something I've been pondering for a while) or a Youtube video (preferably with my shirt off!)...
... while walking along a beach to lonely guitar music: My Triumphant Return From Ridicule!
By the way, though I think you get my drift, I wasn't actually labeling you a 'poor schmuck', only that you had been unwillingly cast in to that role by inhospitable circumstances.
Best.
Less time QQ'ing. More time putting a decimal point in your frikkin calculator. I'm sorry, but prestige and programming cred aside, the dude is an ass.
I've had a great experience with Palm so far. Never had to wait on anything. Actually, Palm people are usually contacting me and they're very helpful. Especially Rob and Chuq.
All my questions/requests are answered withing 24-48 hours. When I needed access to PDN, it was done even before I asked for it =).
Be more patient and polite next time JWZ and you'll eventually make it.
As a developer, I'd like to see a more visible review process on Palm's part, but I'm also willing to participate in the give & take as they get the ball rolling. If I had a huge beef with the process, I'd certainly give Palm a chance to do something about it before making such a big stink.
JWZ, I don't care who you are or what cred you have, your attitude is all wrong. Get over yourself.
jwz is a whiney b!tch. Who cares what he has to say. He may have pointed things out, but he does not deserve this publicity. He can go rot in green monochromatic hell for all I care.
I'm amazed about the comments about this article. Everybody just sticks to Palm with no hesitation and no thought at all.
I agree that JWZ can have some attitude. However in this particular blog entry I still think he is right.
Or do everybody here think it is OK to
1. Pay a fee to disttibute the application.
2. Prevent open source by preventing distribution of the application in any other way than the AppStore.
3. Requre me to give avay my account information to some thid party (that I may not trust that much) even if I will not charge anything?
4. Require a NDA just to talk about the issue?
I must say that I think people trying to create Palm Pre application has the right to have an attitude about these issues, since they are really not small issues. Especially when they tried to prevent him to distribute the source and forcing him to go closed source.
Now I can see Palms perspective also, so I think JWZ should be a little more open to discussion with palm. I hope the situation is resolved and that Palm fixes these issues. Because I, (just like JWZ writes in the blog entry) like palm for there open attitude.
It's fine to ask for a reasonable fee to distribute even a free application in the Palm store. $99 a year is a big much for my blood for free applications, but I wouldn't have a problem paying, say, $10/year for the right to distribute *only* free applications, and perhaps a limited number of them, via the Palm store. (Perhaps 2 new applications or versions per month?)
Requiring a verified PayPal account is not *that* onerous to most people. I understand the objection that people have with this, and it's not a crazy one. Hopefully Palm will relax this requirement for those who will only submit *free* applications. Still, it's not crazy for Palm to require this.
However:
1. Preventing other means of distribution -- if Palm intended to do so -- would be "evil" and almost worse, self-destructive for Palm to do. Palm is ambiguous about this, in the license for the SDK saying "you can only distribute via us" but saying through other channels that Homebrew is OK (so far) and that it's OK to post your source code for others to share/use.
2. Requiring an NDA to even talk about the issue -- if that is in fact what the NDA was for -- may be common in parts of the industry (it it? I don't know), but that doesn't make it right. Squelching free speech is almost always a bad idea, and it often backfires as we see here. However, do we actually know what the NDA was a requirement for? It may not be as it was represented to us.
3. Don't presume malice where there may be growing pains. It's perfectly reasonable to assume the *possibility* of malice, and act accordingly carefully. However, assuming the *presence* of malice is going too far.
Hopefully, in time these issues will become thoroughly unambiguous, and even more hopefully, the questions will be resolved in the right direction. That is, I hope that Palm will unambiguously allow application distribution both via and outside the Palm WebOS store. I hope Palm will allow a cheaper rate for those who will only submit free apps to the Palm store. And, to placate those who refuse to give PayPal their bank information but who only want to submit free applications, hopefully Palm will come up with a separate method of proving who people are that doesn't require PayPal.
If Palm tries to keep a closed environment where the only avenue for non-free applications is the Palm store, there are many developers who won't develop for this platform unless it becomes a dominant platform. Right now, Palm needs to do anything and everything within its power to attract developers. Even a small market advantage now will translate to a big advantage later. And the same way, a small market disadvantage now will translate to a bigger disadvantage over time. Palm needs to make WebOS a compelling choice, not just because of its development environment, but also via these other important factors being discussed.
I think it is a reasonable request from palm that in order to distribute through their store, you should provide some firm evidence of who you are. That makes it a bit harder for someone to submit malware and then disappear into the ether.
Another store I signed up for requires a copy of my passport and a proof of address.
Getting people to sign up with a Paypal Verified account is a pretty neat way to verify identity; It passes the verification on to paypal who do this as a matter of course.
First Palm uses iTunes for media synching and now they use PayPal for developer verification. Neat way to outsourse key elements but the risk is potential consumer or developer dissatisfaction.
after reading that dude's full post and the first page of his commenters, i wonder if maybe palm is just not that interested in banal iPhone-like apps. i mean does the world need another tip calculator? maybe if he had something compelling to bring to the table, he would get a more serious response from palm. they are probably busy courting developers with apps that are actually interesting and useful. i would expect way more from someone involved with netscape/mozilla. maybe he should make a "Yawn" app. it would be more exciting than a Dali clock for sure.
That's the thing that gets me about this. He's raising hell over these dime-a-dozen programs that are not even great versions of what they are. Like I said above, he should spend less time QQ'ing and more time actually making good programs.
I submitted an app to palm over a month ago and didn't hear anything back, not even an automated response.
Anybody else have a similar experience?
The cell phone ringtones would make your cell really original, hence I will suggest to buy the ringtones for mobile from the ringtones corporation.