TouchPad nabs the #2 tablet slot for the first three quarters of 2011, not likely to repeat | webOS Nation
 
 

TouchPad nabs the #2 tablet slot for the first three quarters of 2011, not likely to repeat 64

by Derek Kessler Tue, 22 Nov 2011 4:59 pm EST

Mostly due to the ridiculous fire sale pricing that HP dropped onto the HP TouchPad after they threw in the towel on webOS devices, the TouchPad managed to nab at least one impressive number. In fact, it’s higher than HP was really aiming for (unless you’re Mr. Number One Plus): #2, behind the Apple iPad (at least for 2011 up through October).

Of course, that’s a really distant #2. According to statistics by NPD, HP’s cancelled tablet managed to snag 17% of non-iPad tablet sales. It’s estimated that HP managed to sell right around two million TouchPads during the first three quarters of this year, which isn’t bad considering that the webOS tablet was widely available for less than a quarter. But it’s not great when you factor in the massive loss that HP took winding down the webOS business and selling hundreds of thousands of TouchPads for a loss. For comparison – Apple sold 11.2 million iPads in just the last quarter, and those were all at full price.

HP was followed by Samsung (who sells multiple tablets at multiple sizes) with 16%, Asus at 10%, and Motorola and Acer both at 9%. Every one of those manufacturers had their Android tablets on sale for far longer than HP, but again at higher prices. It’s a small victory for webOS, but at a significant cost.

Source: AppleInsider

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64 Comments

still a good thing to encourage a company to buy webos with over 2 million users on the touchpad alone.

How does that encourage anyone? The way I see it any compnay would have a hard time convincing customers to pay full price for a webOS device.

Agree, and 2 mil users who purchased does not mean 2 mil users who kept WebOS on their Pad. CM7 FTW!

championship manager 7? :P

Does anyone still believe there is a tablet market?

We'll find out with windows 8.

This really is good news actually. For developers and for HP if they wise up. You have your user base..you already took the expense for it. At this point you have created (albeit by accident through a series of poor decisions) an opportunity to push into the market with new devices and with proper committment get the remaining major missing applications developed (netflix etc)

Yeah, I think HP owns the $99 - $149 full size tablet market all to themselves. They are the kings of tablets that cost twice as much to make as their retail price.

Then again, what they go for on ebay many times a day is close to 2.5x the retail price. That's on a discontinued, likely to be soon unsupported device. Just shows how much of an idiot Leo was.

Long live the king! The king is dead! Long live the king!

interestingly i'm genuinely confused as to if your comment is about Apple or HP Webos.

update: funny. my confusion got a negative.

I bought two touchpads during fire sale. One for me and the Mrs. and none of us are using it anymore. The question is out of the many that bought them at fire sale prices how many are still using them? Maybe if ICS comes out and is stable then I will pick it up again.

I bought one on ebay, having missed the firewall by a hair...I use it every day. The iPad, which I bought for my girlfriend, does a lot of stuff the touch pad doesn't do, as does my android phone I replaced my pre with...but if I want to find something quickly, or if we want to catch up on the amazing race, the touchpad's browser, limited as it is, comes through every time....if only we could get more apps though....

Can I buy one of them? I'll pay the full firesale price. That way you wont have wasted any money on something that doesn't meet your needs.

My hope and dream is to use an OS I enjoy using. That's WebOS, not Android. What have I got to lose? My time installing an OS I don't like.

I don't have it to hand (using my phone) but that report say that 17% was equal to 200,000 tablets not two million (and is through to the end of October so covers the firesale). This is based on actual sales data rather than estimates.

Actual sales at *retail* outlets. That doesn't include the constantly overwhelmned web sales.

So they sold 1.8 million Touchpads in online firesales? Doubtful, given how each sale ended within minutes and was pretty hard to find after September.

In any case, that 200,000/1 million/2 million will be sold and resold for some time to come. The eBay and Craigslist supply is seemingly endless.

So...see? They're making money.

(They=resellers)

There's something really fishy about the original report-- the numbers don't add up. They suggest that US retail only sold 1.2 million non-ipad tablets in all of 2011 so far (this is the total from which the 200K Touchpad estimate comes from). Andy Rubin recently said that Android has sold 6 million tablets (to end users). The rest can't all be a online or in foreign countries.

As for Touchpad, 200K seems a bit low, but I haven't seen the 2 million estimate. That seems way too high. My gut says 1 million tops.

"TouchPad nabs the #2 tablet slot for the first the ..." Really? You couldn't get out of the headline without a typo? Come on man.

Nope.

Another way to look at this is that Samsung almost outsold HP selling roughly equivalent hardware at three and four times the price.

That should put it in perspective.

If developers wanna bet their livelihoods on the denizens of Slickdeals.net and Fatwallet....have at it. I assume these are hobbyists who don't care to make money.

Sure the TouchPad would have beaten out Samsung if the FireSale wouldn't have stopped so early. But there were simply no TouchPads available anymore,...

Only 204,000 touchpads sold since launch!

That's the big story. Not the 2 million

Source : AppleInsider ?

Anyway, just entered the Dev community, and placed my touchpad order using the dev voucher - fingers crossed it will arrive soon. Got a Pre Minus and a Pre 3, so looking forward to seeing how they work together. Other phones and tablets are starting to look good, but are still not doing the business for me. I'm not a slab phone fan, and realy do not like touch screen keyboards, no real feedback! Anyway, I digress - I have a few ideas for my Dev projects, if there are 2million users out their and only half download my apps, then only half of them download pay for apps, then I'm gunna be minted (it's all relative). I'm sure many Devs are working for Android and iOS, so why not port to WebOS, the return may not be huge, but we deserve new apps (thats why I'm gunna have a go).

Thank you, we really need them!

Ah...Webos might have a future after all :)
After the selective survey By HP, and these new numbers I will not be surprise if TP or /and Webos survive. And I also think that our community is playing a big part of it.

Just imagine how well Samsung could do if they gave away their tablets?

Have your fun dreaming of what could have been, many of the rest of us are living life as it will be without webOS.

quite true. imagine where samsung would have been if 10.1s would have been cut to $99.

Or, assuming they could make enough, how many people would have ipad 2s if they were also cut to $99.

price matters.

Check your Touchpad sales numbers. You're only off by one tiny order of magnitude.

Does the Android port have any security risks?

@Mikey47: Life without webOS should include without precentral.net! Why do we still have all these trolls??? I am annoyed by all this negativity!!!

It's best to ignore the Trolls. They thrive on the attention but are basically lonely, sad people. If we all ignore them they'll go away just like the monsters under the bed always do when we fall asleep.

I have to say that when I first got my touchpad, I used it quite a bit, but for the common things, like email, web browsing, etc. Now, I hardly use it, (likely because of the lack of apps and updates) but it's mostly because it's too big for me to carry it around. I thought the iPad was ridiculously large when I first saw it and even though it's neat to have, I still think it's too large. I was truly holding out for the 7" device (opal?) to come to life. I would've brought that around with me everywhere. Much smaller, more portable and equally as powerful. In fact, jut the other day I held a kindle fire that someone else purchased and I loved the size. It's a win. HP should've released the 7" and a new slab phone before kicking the bucket. I think they would've been surprised.

Besides, #2 in the tablet market is not a small feat. Especially when android made webos "disappear" in Verizon stores. HP just brought it back ahead of android and then they threw it out. I mean seriously, you don't give up just because you don't get first place on your first try, do you? If you're running a "marathon", do you stop mid-way once you realize someone just finished? (pun not intended hp)

***
HP just brought it back ahead of android and then they threw it out.
***

Seems they got those sales numbers *because* they threw it out. It was the $99 fire sale price that gave them the numbers. It's like saying some random furniture warehouse going out of business with a liquidation sale did better than Rooms to Go because they "sold" more stuff at a "just take these off my hands please" price.

Borders had lines out the door when they cut every book by 80%. But at full price they went bankrupt.

The 80% off lines don't mean borders is a viable business.

something else HP should really be considering is that many tablets recently have had their prices drop to sub $200 levels. Yet, not one of them have caused a stir or frenzy of people to flock the stores in droves, the way webos fans were. I think HP should realize that yes, price does matter, but it's not just because of price that webOS tablets sold.

As for me, I didn't want to get the touchpad because reviews showed (prior to even releasing) that it was lackluster. It didn't have components that it should've had and performance wasn't where it should've been. Also, I was waiting for a slab phone. Something many webOS fans have been asking for and waiting time and again, with no response.

However which way you look at it, if webOS is going to make a return, it should be with sleek, sophisticated and well-built, solid hardware. Apple set the bar, not just on the OS but on the manufacturing process. I find it baffling that HP's Envy line of laptops completely mimicked an apple notebook, but they didn't make the similar comparison when making webos devices.

people have flocked to the Kindle Fire.

and yes. It's just because of price. When it was full price NOBODY bought it but the precentral crowd.

if they could have had sleek well built software i think they would have done it. HP hardware is generally crappy. Expecially their laptops

Here is my experience as a staff member of a major UK mobile and broadband provider, in regards to the touchpad.

Colleague: "Oh you got a new iPad there?"
Me: "Nope"
C: "Galaxy Tab?"
Me: "Nope"
C: "So, what is it then?"
Me: "HP Touchpad"
C: "That on Android then?"
Me: "WebOS"
C: "What's that?"
Me: "It's the OS the Pre used."'
C: "Ah the sh`t one."
Me: Fighting urge to punch colleague in the face. "It's pretty damn good now" I proceed to give demo of multi-tasking and some of the better apps I have, such as Glimpse and working Flash videos.
C: "That's pretty damn good, how much was it?"
Me: "£115 fire sale price"
C: "Wow, where can I get one?"
Me: "You can't, it's been cancelled"

That's pretty much how every conversation goes with a colleague here. There are even some that won't be convinced. The reason for all of these issues is the Pre. It was a poorly built, under-specced device that put many people off WebOS. It was touted as an iPhone killer but just didn't live up to expectations and killed WebOS in public perception. If the people who are meant to be selling the phone and OS and supporting it bad mouth it to everyone, it's a lost cause.

Brother, you and me both....

I have been happy with my Touch Pad. It has given me many hours of enjoyment. Paying the Firesale price made it worthwhile. I received good value for my money. I have bought many items in the past and felt afterwords they were not worth what I paid for them. This purchase was worthwhile.

I owned a TP and recently purchased a 2nd one for HP asking price. I would agree that 10.1" is to large for convenience purposes. 7" would probably be ideal.

I still carry the HP TP everywhere I go and it is always close by. The sized and weight is the trade off that one makes for a beautiful 10.2" screen. I love my TP and it is a great productivity tool, and the SNES emulator is also great for passing time.

The luxury that I have is carrying around and iOS device for those things that the TP cannot do because of a lack of available Apps.

In response to @Mikey47:
I will keep on dreaming. with our numbers growing, accepting it or not WE (the Webos community) are under a big microscope. and we are affecting their decision. A simple rule of business is that if there is a demand there is opportunity. HP know they blew it big, and I do believe that they are trying to repair their mistake (which explain the survey). these numbers are important for them as they are vital for the future of Webos; whether they sell it or they repackage it. NO need to accept my theories just let time be...(FYI from a source of mine at NPD it seems that a bunch of people jumped on that report)mmmmm

Prior to the fire sale I knew nothing about WebOS. In fact I was in the market for an iPad. I have an iPhone and liked the look and feel of iOS. Since HP made an offer I couldn't refuse, I purchased the TouchPad. Now that I actually know about WebOS and have had some experience with it, I much prefer it to iOS. If they recanted and started supporting WebOS and came out with a Touchpad 2 with enhancements, I'd happily pay the market rate for tablets for it. This is simply a fantastic UI for a tablet in spite of some needed tweeks.

The non-functioning direct reply system on the front pages makes me wonder if they've been reduced to running the site off a Touchpad.

@reconn2001 I do not doubt for a minute you are not alone in your feelings. However, the numbers just don't add up for a perspective purchaser or HP itself. Of those 2 million, what percentage feel like you? 10%? 20%? Let's push it to the limit and say 100%. What does this mean? In a year or two you will have 2 million people who would consider paying full price for a replacement device, but the rest of the market would be sitting on their hands waiting for firesale prices.

Wow, the reply thing is not working with Firefox for some reason. SnotBoogie,CGK, and all others who are in denial about HP selling over a million TouchPads please explain to the group how HP made $200 million in sales on just 204,000 TouchPads. Did they sell them for $980 a piece? No! So they had to have sold at least 1 million at of around the fire sale price just to make that amount of money. Websites can tell untruths, math doesn't lie (unless its statistics).

If this was "just about the price" why haven't people flocked to the cheaper Android tablets? There are several 10 inch Android tablets for under $150. You can find them with Google:

https://www.google.com/search?q=10+inch+android+tablet&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=10+inch+android+tablet&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=CYZ&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbs=cat:4745,pdtr0:724612|724613,pdtr1:724748|10%2410,p_ord:p&tbm=shop&prmd=imvnsu&ei=hAPNTtf2OpGhtwfvn7R7&ved=0CBMQuw0oAQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=657269a22744c06&biw=1280&bih=707

There were some of these around at the same price point prior to the fire sale. I pointed that out to Android folks before. Nobody bought them. I'm sure the Android guys here will bicker about these tablets running 2.x, but CM7 and the Kindle Fire are both based on 2.x so that argument is a non-starter.

There was a story about the TouchPad being number 2 in mind share (people who wanted to buy one), way ahead of Android, before the fire sale.

http://www.precentral.net/ipad-might-be-1-hp-touchpad-already-2-market

So the fire sale just accelerated things for a few people.

We now know that HP should not have given up on the TouchPad and that the TouchPad is more popular than any Android tablet, but most of us were saying that and taken a lot of ridicule before this story. All you folks advertising CM7 in your signature in the forums need to do some soul searching...

@k4ever,

Your example is nonsense. There are no 10-inch Android tablets with Honeycomb for that price. All of them have ancient, phone-centric versions that run like poo on tablet hardware. They also have cheaper screens, little to no storage, no access to the Android market, and slower processors.

Kindle Fire is a silly comparison because they completely revamped it and have their own curated app market.

If you think people are clamoring so bad for WebOS, why did the tablet bomb at full price? Why did the phones bomb on each carrier even when dropped to $50-to-free?

@jerrydan

I knew you were going to say that (I addressed this in my post). Honeycomb has been a failure. Every time we talk Android I hear "wait until Ice Cream Sandwich comes out". 2.x is on more Android tablets than Honeycomb. If Honeycomb is so great then why did Amazon go with 2.x? They could have easily done their revamping to Honeycomb. Oh, wait, Google did not release the source code for it. Well surely a major company like Amazon could have obtained the source code to Honeycomb from Google (with an NDA). That is if they really wanted it.

You can add the market to these tablets. You can also put a custom ROM on them or upgrade them to ICS (if the hardware will take it). Add a 32GB SD card and you have more storage available then the TouchPad. You also have cloud apps in the market for online storage. These tablets may not be glamorous but hey what do you expect for $150?

What upsets me is the fact that most of you are trying to have it both ways. If the only reason was the price, Android tablets would outsell everyone else. There are Android tablets out there at EVERY price point. If the OS was so great, Android tablets would outsell everyone else. People may not be clamoring for webOS as much as iOS but they are certainly not clamoring for Android as much as webOS either.

If we are talking strictly about the price point, these things should have been flying off the shelves. That was the point I was making in my post. The TouchPad didn't just sell well because it was inexpensive. It sold well because it has high quality hardware with good software at a much lower price. You are actually getting something for more than what you paid for it.

***
What upsets me is the fact that most of you are trying to have it both ways. If the only reason was the price, Android tablets would outsell everyone else. There are Android tablets out there at EVERY price point. If the OS was so great, Android tablets would outsell everyone else. People may not be clamoring for webOS as much as iOS but they are certainly not clamoring for Android as much as webOS either.
***

Huh? Aren't Android tablets outselling webOS tablets? Sure, the TouchPad on liquidation outsold other tablets individually, but that is NOT the same as saying it is outselling "android tablets". Things are always qualified when it comes to webOS. The fact is HP had a going out of business sale on the TouchPad and people scooped up the perceived bargin. Why are people trying to pretend it is something more than that?

***
These tablets may not be glamorous but hey what do you expect for $150?
***

There is a difference between a cheaply made tablet (spec-wise) that is sold cheaply and a tablet being sold for a fraction of what the hardware it runs on is worth. You can't just look at a price of $99 and compare it to other 99-dollar tablets. The TouchPad is a tablet with hardware worth around $300 being sold at 1/3 the value with no strings attached during the fire sale.

*There is a difference between a cheaply made tablet (spec-wise) that is sold cheaply and a tablet being sold for a fraction of what the hardware it runs on is worth. You can't just look at a price of $99 and compare it to other 99-dollar tablets. The TouchPad is a tablet with hardware worth around $300 being sold at 1/3 the value with no strings attached during the fire sale.*

The statement was made that the ONLY reason the TouchPad sold was because it was $99-150. There were attacks on the TouchPad's hardware before the fire sale (too heavy, to bulky, finger print magnet, slow processors, no rear camera). Now all of a sudden the TouchPad's hardware is decent? If the ONLY reason the TouchPad sold was the price, then the $150 cheapo Android tablets should sell well also. Your statement proved my point.

Your point is nonsense comparing Apples and Oranges.

A $150 Android tablet is not equivalent to the hardware of a $150 Touchpad. The only reason the Touchpad sold OUT was because of the fresale. It sold quite crappily at $499 and then $399. More than enough for HP to give up.

You're being silly. I didn't say the TouchPad's hardware is descent or poor. I said it is *WORTH* about $300. This is taken directly from the teardown that was done shortly after release. So you have something that cost much more than $99 to produce (not accounting for whatever discounts HP's "scale and reach" has afforded it) being sold for 1/3 the cost.

If another cheapo Android tablet has an MSRP of $150, I'm willing to bet the hardware is worth less than that. So it really is not the same. Sorry you can't see that.

***
I knew you were going to say that (I addressed this in my post). Honeycomb has been a failure. Every time we talk Android I hear "wait until Ice Cream Sandwich comes out". 2.x is on more Android tablets than Honeycomb. If Honeycomb is so great then why did Amazon go with 2.x? They could have easily done their revamping to Honeycomb. Oh, wait, Google did not release the source code for it. Well surely a major company like Amazon could have obtained the source code to Honeycomb from Google (with an NDA). That is if they really wanted it.
***

Why would Amazon want a more widget-y, card multitasking, notification-handling version of Android? That's precisely why they wouldn't go with WebOS! All of that stuff would get in the way of people shopping on the Fire. That's why their custom version strips away EVERYTHING but the basics needed to run their shopping carousel and their services.

Of course, Amazon 2.x is on more tablets. It's available to any manufacturer that downloads the AOSP version of Android for no cost. Honeycomb, the market, and Google apps all cost money, and cheap manufacturers like Coby or Pandigital or Viewsonic have no interest in paying. They're already putting out a bargain bin product at razor thin margins.

The ONLY sales success story from ANY WebOS product in two years came when the manufacturer went out of business and sold them for pennies on the dollar. No non-Apple companies are matching that "feat" because THEY WANT TO STAY IN THIS BUSINESS. Meanwhile, Samsung pretty much matched Touchpad firesales but with a legitimate Honeycomb product sold for 3-4x the price.

So if Honeycomb is a "failure" then WebOS is the king of all failures.

@jerrydan3

*Why would Amazon want a more widget-y, card multitasking, notification-handling version of Android?*

You don't have to activate the home screen in Android.

*Honeycomb, the market, and Google apps all cost money....*

So Honeycomb is not free? I knew Google charged a fee for the Google services, but why charge someone for a single version of Android?

*The ONLY sales success story from ANY WebOS product in two years came when the manufacturer went out of business*

HP is still in business, last time I checked.

*So if Honeycomb is a "failure" then WebOS is the king of all failures.*

No, Honeycomb is a failure because no one wants to use it in large volumes. Everyone is either waiting for ICS or using 2.x. Time will tell on webOS success or failure, but with ICS being released, time is over for Honeycomb.

Dude, HP is not in the TABLET business. they are out of this business.

Anyway...acting like Honeycomb is a failure compared to WebOS when WebOS tablets barely outsold ONE Honeycomb (of many) manufacturer selling their products at a 80 percent discount is pure comedy.

You guys need to get a room and really go at it!

haha http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/11/tablet-wars-second-place-goe...
I wonder if they will keep it since it did what they wanted...

I've had my TP for about a month now. At first I was using it everyday, but I've noticed in the last week or so, I've been not using it at all some days.

I guess the honeymoon period is over. It's still a great tablet and OS (didn't put Android on it), but sometimes it's easier to just use my phone (Pre minus) or laptop.

Not an accurate article title, imho.
It's more fair to compare android to webOS, not by manufacturer.

And i thought manufacturers are shy to release their sales figures? how does this "consumer tracking service" work? Is my touchpad, purchased directly from Palm's store, counted? This says it only counts in-store sales, which is a fraction of sales. There were, what, 1 million touchpad produced, and this survey only considers in-store sales, which by their math is 200k. So if they're ignoring 800k touchpads, how many of the other tablets are they ignoring?

More importantly.. The Nook color, a "low-priced" tablet (even tho sells for more (in $) than the touchpad), and has, by accounts i hear, sold more (in #'s) than the touchpad, is clearly not counted in this survey. (Looking at major retailers would be more illustrative.. on amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/1232597011/ref=pd_zg_hr...) it's #6.. not bad, agreed.. (tho note it'd be 7th if they sold the nook color.))

More importantly, selling a tablet for ~$200-300 less than the cost of manufacture/shipping/advertising/R&D and taking the lead should not be a news story. See the Borders example above.

AKA, misleading article..

How many here purchased the Touchpad because it was a low priced tablet or because it was the tablet they wanted at a low price?

I think the interesting thing about the article is that the majority that purchased a tablet other than Apple were not even considering an Apple ipad.

So it was more of an informed decision for purchase than buying for price.

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