TouchPad vs iPad 2: Spec-down 314
Well, as expected Apple has not only announced by will release the iPad 2 well before the TouchPad hits the market. Sure, it's difficult for HP to compete with unannounced products, but it's certainly looking like they will have their work cut out for them convincing consumers that the TouchPad competes spec-for-spec. The iPad 2 is about 35% thinner and 15% lighter, not to mention that it will be available in 64g configurations and also features a rear-facing camera. Whether it's faster or not is an open question - early reports indicate that the iPad 2 is crazy fast, but we have yet to see fully optimized and finalized builds of webOS 3.0 on the TouchPad. Comparing Apple's A5 to Qualcomm's Snapdragon directly isn't really possible.
Instead, HP will need to pursue the path that everybody expects and plays to their strength: it's not the specs, it's the OS. The multitasking experience on webOS is superior to iOS and hopefully HP will be able to get their App offering and Enterprise support ramped up in time for Summer. Tap-to-Share, easy development, superior notifications ...we could go on and assume that HP will do the same as we get closer to launch.
Anybody out who was planning on getting a TouchPad thinking of getting the iPad 2 instead?
314 Comments
Nope, still getting a touchpad... but I have been wondering about the utility of the rear facing cameras on any tablet-- I'm sorta glad HP went the route of not having one. What is it for? Taking pictures of your crotch? I can't imagine holding any large tablet up with any ease to take a picture!
Seems like you aren't thinking out of the box here. Two cameras would be good during facetime if you are having a family gathering or something, and want to put the camera on the rest of the family that is sitting on a couch across from you. Just hit the camera flip button and, voila, the back camera is now showing the family. I think that option is pretty sweet.
Are you crazyjeff? ;)
I really don't see this as something that will be a regular need or use. It would be 'nifty' to do once...but I think the novelty would wear off quick. I gotta go with cderekg on this one...but you do have the cooler name! Sorry bout that cderekg.
and by novelty, Rockbeast, you are admitting that you don't have family to do this with and you dont have family gatherings?
do you KNOW how many people have family? practically everyone. it's only a novelty if you allow it to be.
whoa someone took their d**k pills todays
calm down.
You started it. HAHA.
JK. The back camera is overkill. That's what the back camera on my phone is for. The front camera, perfect for video calling.
Anyway, no Apple products for me please. Android tablets look to be on par with the TouchPad. Man, the tablet market is getting crowded fast. I hope HP knows what they are doing and will stand out.
Hopefully they will do what they do best, sell their products for cheap.(With high end specs of course)
yeah thats what i was thinking they were going for here. if they could offer this tab for $400 dollars for the 16g they have a real shot at selling tonnns of these. being that they left out some thing that could have made it cost much more like the different ports (hdmi and usb), rear cam, touch area and made it outta plastic. perhaps they are going for the lower end. a hi performance pad with all that u reaaally need but costs much less. perhaps they have something going here.
Maybe they will bundle this with the pre3 for a dang good price. that would b cool. we will have to see
I don't think that the TouchPad is aiming for lower end. It's all still very high end and looks to have a good quality. Apple is simply buying THAT much parts that they can sell it "not very expensive" and still do a lot of money with it.
Whereas HP probably won't earn a lot of money with a 399 16GB tablet... But I still hope that they are going to do it, simply to get a significant impact on the market. They will be cheaper then those overkill-Android Tablets for sure.
What makes me a bit nervous is their claim that this tablet will be for "business"-use... For such a use the price won't be that important. I hope this is more of a marketing trick (but I still want some corporate features, our 200k+ employees company is making comparisons between Tablets and Phones NOW for the future... Please send us some samples HP, it's hard to convince people with sentences like "will be available in summer..."! ;)
You're telling me you would do this on a daily basis?
Scratch that, a weekly basis?
How about, even a monthly basis?
How often do you find the need to do this?
Wow, it's a cool feature just admit it, the original video cameras were WAAAAAY BIGGER than a tablet and they had a "rear facing camera" it's good to have the view finder facing you and the camera on the opposite end, just admit it, Apple 1 UP'ed us again.
I love WEBOS, but if HP is smart, they will stop thinking small and slow, and start thinking BIG AND FAST!
you are correct. in the minds of people shopping for a tab they will see that this is missing the cam vs alll the other tabs out there. honestly the thing that is missing that turns me off the most too it is that the touch area is missing. i know its not really that big of a deal but its one thing that really made me love webos. its part of the fun of using the OS. i guess the newbs over there at Palm Global Business Unit didn't realize that :/
I Agree totally with you there. I love Gesture area and it's something innovative that I don't see anybody else doing. Though, with the Touchpad size, it would be slightly awkward, but they could have one on the side for thumb or something
Um, the Playbook has a gesture area...
No, it doesn't. It's only 7" and they are actually using one pixel on the bottom to trigger that mechanism. The bezel itself is as touch-sensitive as a stone.
Aren't you going to buy a new HP-Phone too? There you have your back-camera with which you can transfer everything with a single bump to your phone.
What I find more important... WHY THE HELL APPLE PUT A HIGH-RES CAMERA IN THE BACK AN A LOW RES 0.3 MPX ON THE FRONT??? What do YOU think you will use more often?
The power in a rear facing camera would be the ability to scan labels for inventory...just the first thought that comes to mind.
Because the iPad is definitely less awkward than a scan-gun that most retailers use... which also tend to have battery life well in excess of 10 hrs... and are optimized for the inventory process... and have a real scanner... and don't cost $750 ea...
Yeah, great for inventory control.
We have to get with the times. If we use those old things, our customers will think we aren't hip and go to the other store.
Agreed, this is very important for people that don't need more than 10hrs of scanning time...lol
Maybe not for retailers but there are shopping apps that allow you to scan barcodes and then these items are added to the basket. This extra camera will make this process easier rather than putting the object in front of the screen to scan.
Why worry about something that's extra. Bet people complaing about it being OVERKILL would not consider a $/£1,000,000 bonus as being OVERKILL!!! Extra can only mean better and more possibilities.
I'm not arguing against the utility of a back camera, but this is not the reason why. Are you seriously going to carry around a 10" tablet in your pocket to scan barcodes at the store?
Not that we have seen apps using a camera API at all anyhow...
Instead of talking about it ahs that you don't *need.* Let's talk about something webOS doesn't have... Frickin apps. I still can't use my Pre Plus for much more than messaging. (which it does a good job for being a 2 year old OS). But I use my GTab for everything else from a consumption basis. I'll wait until I see ways to use a touchpad before I sink that much money into it.
Let's face it, the real reason why fanboys are saying the TouchPad doesn't need a camera is because it doesn't have one!
Let me give you a few quotes and tell me if this sounds familiar:
“There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home.”
(Ken Olson, President, Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977)
“Windows NT addresses 2 Gigabytes of RAM, which is more than any application will ever need.”
(Microsoft, on the development of Windows NT, 1992)
“640K ought to be enough for anybody.”
(Bill Gates, 1981)
“But what is it good for?”
(Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, commenting on the microchip, 1968)
Sound familiar?
To add additional reasons for a camera in the industry - take Doctors for example. They're always walking around with ipads so they can review your scans and medical records. Easy to carry and easy to view. Imagine a doctor needs to take a photograph of an injury. Why whip out a camera phone and mess with sending it to another device, when you can just use the device in your hand?
I can also see this in the office. How many times do people walk into a meeting with an ipad to take notes. We also sketch network diagrams on the whiteboard - how easy would it be to pick up the device you're using to take notes and take a picture of the network diagram and save it with the notes?
How about insurance companies? Agents no longer need to bring a camera and laptop. They can simply grab an ipad with an app that can take notes on what happened during a vehicle accident and take pictures to store with the report.
These are just a few ideas - but there are many more. Never knock a good feature on a device just because you don't know what *you* would do with it; someone out there will use it.
You're right. HP should have had at least a 3mp camera, if not a 8mp one. Well, maybe they will release a smaller tablet later this year with a rear-facing camera.
just a question...how do you take notes with a tablet? type with one hand? is it possible to type that fast with one hand? and what...rest one edge of the tablet on your belly while the other hand holds it steady while you type with that one hand?
Well, Mr. Snarky Snark... I increasingly see more of my peers using tablets to take notes in meetings. Additionally, I have my departments testing the efficacy of using tablets to quickly document product failures, and send out rapid notifications on the fly without having to return to their desks. PPP2 is spot on about the futility of knocking features simply because YOU don't see the utility.
sorry if I came across 'snarky'...I was genuinely interested in learning HOW to take notes using a tablet...perhaps I write a different English...
but since nobody seems to know...how does one 'see a tablet being used to take notes'?
iPad + Noteshelf + PDFExpert + Boxwave capacitive stylus...means I don't have to carry and manage a bunch of paper notepads and means I can markup/annotate the research I have in PDF format (thousands of pages worth).
PDFExpert (and similar apps) is popular with real estate agents because it allows the agents and clients to sign digital documents, which can then be emailed straight from the iPad. Eliminates the need to print and sign from an office.
And I use to think that tablet devices were worthless in the work environment but now admit it has definitely made a significant improvement in my productivity.
Thank you very much...suddenly I see lots more possibilities for the Touchpad!
PS...I know what I would use the Touchpad for...it's called Kindle...everything else...including tts with the Pre3...will be a bonus...
TouchPad really doesn't need a back-facing camera, as HP is going to sell the TouchPads mostly to their corporate clients as mobile tools along with Pre 3s. With a Pre 3 one could take the picture and just do a tap-transfer to any TouchPad.
What Id really like to know is how often anyone with an iPhone or Android phone now uses the rear camera other than snapping a few photos. With that said, who is actually going to be leaving their phone at home since they have an iPad or a TouchPad? Seriously, even with a tablet, Id still have my phone which does have both a front facing and rear camera. Its not needed in a tablet for the average consumer. Useful for some but a small percentage of the market.
The problem with this thinking is that it goes on the idea that a 10 inch tablet is going to be the ONE device that a doctor, or ANYONE would use for all purposes, and that is WRONG. I remember those old video cameras from way way back, and the big problem is that they were too damn big to keep with you ALL the time.
Now, phones are a different matter, where you WILL always have one on you, tablet or no tablet. I also wouldn't expect a doctor to have a TABLET in his/her hand 24x7, simply because of the size. I have yet to see a doctor walking around with an iPad, unless they would normally be walking around with a clipboard.
Hold up a 8.5x11 inch piece of paper...hold it steady now, yep, that is REALLY convenient for taking a picture with! When you have phones that are large enough to use for most purposes(smartphones), those make for a far more useful device.
Remember, doctors don't always want their patients to hear their phone calls, so something they can put to their ear without being forced to use a speakerphone IS needed in many situations, and tablets just don't fit the bill there.
Face it, no matter how useful a tablet may be, it won't be a device that 99.5 percent will keep with them at all times, a 3.6 inch or larger cell phone would be, and will do the job of taking pictures much much better than a 10 inch tablet, just for stability reasons.
I would take one with a rear-facing camera. But actually I wouldn't miss it. Why? Because it's not "that" useful to add another (lets say) $ 30 to the price.
At the same time I would rather have a 1.2 mpx camera in the front with no rear facing than a tablet with a 5 mpx rear-facing camera and A FRONT-FACING-CAMERA OF 0.3 mpx! Why doesn't anyone else mention that this is bs? I would understand it the other way around. But for me the ffc has to have the better quality and now the iPad even can't film with the same resolution like it's own screen resolution, just with 640x800... What a perfect item for face-time it is.
You could just as easily take the pic with your phone and bump it to your pad. I think that is actually MORE nifty. ...but that's just me I suppose.
lot of bumpin goin on
yeah perhaps they are only planning on selling this to people who buy pre3s, which is probably the reality here. maybe they know their market better than we thought haha. i for one would love to have a TB if i also had a pre3. i really hope they offer a combo package with it... i hope they offer some competitive pricing cuz that galaxy s 2 is looking really sweet. i don't think i would need a tab if i had that phone. i am excited for this summer when im going to be doing some serious electronics shopping :)
Some people do not want to carry TWO devices - especially when the larger format device should be no less capable than the smaller format device.
If I had to decide between carrying my Pre 3 or my TP with me all the time I would always take the Pre 3.
The TB is for couch-surfing and maybe for some meeting notes and to replace my usual laptop. I'am sure the next TB is going to have a rear facing camera, but even then this will just be "one more feature" which doesn't change very much of the product to me.
The question is not "do you want a rear facing camera or not" the question should be "do you want to PAY more for a rear facing camera?" and for now I would say that the extra-price just isn't worth it. Just look about the reports on the Xoom that the cameras are actually one of the main reasons for the high price... Or look at the iPad, where they put a 5MP rear facing camera and a tiny 0.3MP on the front (probably to save costs)..
Let HP include it in the next year (when it hopefully gets cheaper). Maybe I even would use it sometimes, but this wouldn't be more than just a show-off-effect. The original iPad even sold without ANY camera! ;)
You cant simply flip the tablet around? I mean its not that hard to turn something in a circular motion you know..
But then you can't see what exactly is in the frame. Admittedly it won't be used often, but I'm sure it'd be nice in certain scenarios. This is coming from someone who agreed with the OP three months ago.
Couldn't you just hold the item on the front of the tablet and take it with the front camera? Wouldn't that be easier to line it up anyway?
Doctor : "This might hurt a bit, sir, but could you please hold your compound-fractured arm up in FRONT of my TouchPad so I could take a picture of it?"
Me : "AAAGGGHHHHH!#$&*(#@!@#(@!#$"
Good idea! Let me rip this 8 foot whiteboard off the wall...
The forward-facing camera is pathetically low quality.
Augmented Reality. It's all about getting input from our environment and augmenting it with information that's available on the cloud. Just go to YouTube and look for augmented reality apps available now for the iPhone. They're not just novelty apps. They're actually quite useful. Imaging getting information on infrastructures around you. Or an arrow pointing you out to a direction you should walk to to get to the train station (that app already exists). Or pointing it to the sky to see lines superimposed on constellations or information about individual stars.
It's the next big thing in 2011 and the TouchPad might have to wait a whole product cycle (2012?) for it to get into the action. In the meantime, other products are gobbling up mindshare, marketshare and appshare.
Augmented reality is way easier on a small iPhone, compared to a 10" iPad or TouchPad.
I must admit you are right richip, and believe me I'm sorry to say that :p
Augmented reality is and is going to be a big thing. And a something simple as a rear facing camera is really what you need to enable it. Apparently the guys at HP didn't consider this.
I don't miss it for now and I think I still can live without it for some years ;)
But yeah.. Why shouldn't HP include it in the future iterations of the TP? Now the main reason for sure were the costs.
What would be selling better? A TP for 399 without or a TP for 439 WITH a rear facing camera? Saying this I believe that these things will get cheaper and that they will have one (at least 3 to 5 MP... more just isn't good or would be a waste on such a device).
How often are you going to do this?
THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF DATA on that chart is on the very bottom left box under availability. 3/11/11.
That is why the Ipad 2 will kick the snot out of the Touchpad and everything else out there. Everyone that is in the market to get one of these just got/or are getting their refund checks from Obama, and are days from buying a new Ipad 2.
Why do you think Apple products always come out this time of year?
I love you Web OS but your creaters just don't know how to market you.
Apple products don't always come out this time of year.
Agreed. iPad2 will be the big winner because it's first to market. Others will sell, but they will lag far behind the iPad2 (like the Samsung Galaxy Tab is dwarfed today by iPad1).
Refund checks are not from President Obama. It is simply your money that you overpaid during a tax year that is refunded. If you withheld more during the year, it should balance out to zero.
Please keep your narrow-minded, US-centric political opinion out of this forum. Remember, opinions are like bung holes. Everyone has one, and no one thinks theirs stinks.
Cache, I'm so going to use the last 2 lines of your post. I'd heard the first half, but not the second. I'll try to credit you...
For the record, some Americans can actually figure out withholding so we don't give our government an interest-free loan. Then again, some of us just like to go on screeds blaming President Obama for stuff that has gone on, literally, for generations. But have you seen his birth certificate? LOL.
Once you get past the stage of being single and having expenses that do not change all that much from month to month, you will find that it is almost impossible to know ahead of time what sort of withholdings you need from a pay check. The more you have, the more complicated your tax returns will be.
hahah wow u are trying to sound smart aren't you?! he had no political opinion there at all man. your comment is completely nonsensical.... by saying he gets his refund check from Obama he is referring to the nation gov in general. u actually took that literally?! haha wow what a tool
for recording family. i use my rear facing cam many times more than the front on the ipod touch 4.
Because that's a much smaller device. For me the Touchpad is a Notebook-replacement. And therefore a rear-facing camera would be nice, but is not a must. Certainly not if it brings much bigger costs to the tablet as a whole.
I see that you might want some better specs in some cases from HP for the TP, but at the same time everybody will scream like they did with the Xoom... EVERYTHING inlcuded, no spec was "low-end" and everything is just the best and highest end of the ends... ;)
Yeah, the price was it in the end also. I just hope that such small cuts will enable them to sell the TP for 399 (16 GB WiFi-only). This would be much more important than anything else.
PS: I used every rear facing camera more often than ANY front-facing camera on every phone (that had both) that I ever owned. And I NEVER used any rear facing camera on my laptop, nor did I ever wish one ;)
they might use such for augmented reality gaming. plus the other stuff written below. I personally have no use for it.
WebOS for life! TouchPad FTW! Haha
The Engadget videos of the iPad2 are incredible, showing the raw speed and smoothness of it. It has turned into an incredibly powerful device, in its second iteration, for sure.
That's going to be a baseline for every device that wants to compete, now. Luckily, the dualcore Qualcomm chips in the TP are technically faster - but, as you said, will they be actually faster in thier final, optimized implementation on WebOS 3 when they are realeased this summer?
It goes to show, that from the Touchpad videos that we've seen compared to the iPad 2 videos we've seen, that webos is too much eye candy and not enough touch-responsiveness. It's clear that when you move on the iPad, your finger follows as if you are touching it, which is the whole point. Where I think that the Touchpad (and webos as a whole on current devices) falls short is the millisecond lag that it takes for the system to 'catch up' to touches. and the fact that it has to render the waterdrop effect every time the screen is touch adds to that.
it may not seem like any significance, but when you see how responsive (fast too, but really just responsive) the ipad reacts to touch, it further blurs the line even more between what is real and what is virtual.
This is how Ive always felt when using webOS devices vs iPhones...there is always a lag no matter the webOS device. The touch responsiveness, no matter how overclocked, is just not as snappy as an iPhone 3gs (which is comparable). And from the videos ive seen with hands-on Pre3 I can see that slight lag as well.
I will still get a Pre3 but I HATE this mini-lag being pervasive in the entire OS.
As far as software goes the 3gs is not comparable to anything, but the Pre3 when it his 3.0. As in 3rd iteration of the software. Hopefully they have all the kinks worked out.
I like the waterdrop. It lets you know if the device actually registered a touch.
Besides, things like this are not a factor for PDK apps. I don't remember feeling a lag when playing PDK apps on a Pre 2.
Exactly. Just look at how responsive his touch is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DqreSmC_40
That is wicked fast.
I doubt that the Touchpad is as responsive. Or is it?
And wasn't there a patch to reduce the lag when dragging stuff on the screen?
On WebOS 2.1 it actually IS much better now. Let's look at the final version of the TP compared to the iPad.
Telling this I also want to point out, that it's not only this which is important, but also how fast you can finish a task on your device. And since I have 2.1 on my Pre+ I have to admit that it REALLY is great. Especially the just-type. I just start to type and then I think about it, if I want to send this a an email, SMS, IM, put it into my Notes or whatever... really great! :)
When the OS doesn't do much in the way of multitasking, and everything is suspended when you move to another app, of course it will be faster.
You know that is a tough question I don't think I could leave WEBOS for that even I own the ipad 1 I am going to wait....
Apple does product launches right. Announce... available within 2 weeks. HP - Announce... it'll be available sometime in the next 9 months or so. Sad and pathetic.
soooo sad but true.... I talked to an hp sales rep and that is the biggest reason he has trouble selling products. Because everything he has to sell is now or last seasons technology, meanwhile nobody wants to buy because they've heard about something else that'll be here in the "comming months." they need to invest a billion or two on a time machine so they can go back and give steve jobs cancer....ooooh too soon?!!
Cancer smack? Really?
you're a tool.
You suck.
yeah def too soon **** .. reminds me of a story of something funny that just happened last week. so a girlfriend of mine who lives alone woke up to some noise in her apartment at like 3 am. she gets outta bed, grabs a blunt object and walks into the main living area. she finds her land lord (who lives in the same building) standing, just standing!, in her kitchen. she yells, "Rob, wtf are you doing here!?!" he answers in the most monotone, slow way, "nothing in particular." haha is that ridic?... she didnt tell me this story i found out from another friend that it happen. so the next time i see her she asks me, "hey what you been up too?" i answer jokingly, "nothing in perticualr" in a creepy way. she kinda got pissed lol. too soon?
Exactly right. But HP is not alone in its inability to deliver new products quickly after they are announced. The Playbook is still not available, nor has a US release date been announced for the Galaxy 10.1 as far as I can tell.
Motorola gets some credit for getting the Xoom to market before the iP2, but without some key features, making it seem like a Beta while the iP2 is (apparently) a ready for prime time device.
Once again Apple makes its competitors look like amatures when it comes to product life cycles and announcements.
yeah apple is def on point with that.
"Sad and pathetic."
Absolutely. I'm sure that HP execs sat in a room and discussed all this with their marketing folks. "Ok,suppose when we announce this TouchPad thing, we tell people it will be four to six months before they can buy it. Basically we're telling them to buy something else. We're not trying to get our name out there, or make the product name recognizable. We're trying to come across as sad and pathetic. Will that work?"
You bet! HP knows better than anybody how to achieve crappy sales numbers.
It's unfortunate, but HP can't please everyone. There's always an unreasonable person like BubbaHooska.
Everyone had been looking for an announcement of a true 2nd generation Pre (not just a plus or faster processor/better glass version, but something that's much better) and a first generation tablet. People with Pre Minuses have been waiting for 18 months with no announcement of any plans of a device.
Everyone pleaded with HP/Palm to release some details. Even the marketing guy in the ski mask made mock threats about the lack of announcement on the new "super device." We finally get the super announcement and people complain.
You have to look at it from when the product can be released and count backward. There were merger issues, software issues (switch to Enyo), hardware issues (iPad used up the display market) that needed to be ironed out. It takes some time for that to happen. As someone mentioned, no one else, except Motorola is getting their devices out there any sooner (that we know of). And I don't think I've seen with the wi-fi only version will be available, which is what sells the most iPads (i.e. what people are buying).
Since the summer was going to be the date it was ready, you have two choices, either announce something early which will help those of us plan our purchasing decisions or wait until late Spring for an announcement and read another 100 articles about how HP should just trash WebOS and go with Android.
Personally, I'd much rather have the former.
Going forward, it looks like we'll have faster product cycles (the 7" Opal), especially since merger issues are complete. WebOS will just work on the 7" tablet with minimal change, and there will be less competition for the display since Apple isn't hording the supply.
And am sure the 7" Opal will have a rear facing camera. I for one is not too impress with the ipad2 because the changes are not really that much from the ipad1. I am going to wait for the Touchpad and the Pre^3. I wish they will come out much sooner.
what? the ipad2 is way better than the first. i am tired of you newbs who only think something is better based on the screen. no they didnt improve the screen. but u read anything else on it? processor is wayyyy more powerful. and now it can do video out in mannny different forms annd it can mirror on a tv. not to mention video chat and rear cam... sounds rather significant to me... i am no fanboy i am just stating the facts.
As I understand it, video mirroring is actually a feature of iOS 4.3 that will also work on the original iPad, just outputting in 720P over that HDMI dongle instead of 1080P on the iPad 2.... so it's not really specifically an iPad 2 feature, technically. :D
oh good to know... i honestly see the ipad2 as a huge improvement over the first still though. muuuch thinner, muuuch lighter, muuuch faster, same batt life, that crazy awesome magnetic cover. all that and its only one year newer. if you people dont see those things as a major improvement then idk what is, i really dont.
Just because Palm and HP does things in an incompetent way is not really an excuse.
thanks for saying that.
My guess is they will switch this in the future. As far as I can tell, they made the announcement early for only one reason. Developers. They want the developers to see that there is a whole ecosystem of webOS products coming so they will start coding now. Once the products are out, they will be able to say to their customers "look at all these apps we have."
Apple can do this now because they already have the developers on board. John Rubinstein has stated that this was an issue with the original Pre launch so I think they are well aware that they need to shorten this time frame but how else are you going to get developers without showing them that your company is worth developing for?
Your developer point is critical, zfrogz. HP's vision of integration across devices -- including HP laptops and desktops (and beyond to enterprise uses) is a significant difference compared to anyone else. It will offer sudden scale to webOS developers. Admittedly that scale isn't there in March 2011. HP might lose the tablet war and still win the OS battle because the total market for smart devices is much bigger than the consumer focused tablet segment created by Apple or even the smartphone market now dominated by Android, Apple and RIM. RIM has a great tablet with a webOS copycat interface, great enterprise phone features, but the HP integration plan could easily trump RIM. HP isn't limiting webOS to phones and tablets. It's a big bet. But we won't know for a year or two if it pays off. The first HP webOS devices are nice, but it is a mistake to focus too much on the first batch of hardware. HP's battle plan is not focused on matching Apple, but leveraging HP's own advantages. There will be big payoffs to consumers (and mobile workers) from webOS. I like webOS cause it makes work easy. Apple seems more entertainment focused. But the biggest payoffs for HP may be beyond the consumer market. HP is huge in the enterprise segment, in both hardware and services. HP webOS offers differentiation to HP and new opportunities far beyond the consumer handset or tablet. But HP needs developers who work in webOS to deliver. Consumer mindshare is less important to this vision than developer commitment and mindshare. Enterprise customers are paying customers, for both HP and developers. I love HP's vision. I'm willing to give them some slack because one tablet or phone is not the game.
That's what happens when you execute BLATANT Anti-trust in a foreign country outside of the reach of the FTC and DOJ.
Let a company in the US (or EU) try "buying up" all of anything to block competitors and see how many investigators start climbing up their ****
Gotta love **** Jobs! ..I mean "Steve"
Well... the things are as they are. Usually something like this takes a least one year and HP started after Apple to do this, so of course they are later.
What were the alternatives? Announce nothing? Announce only the Veer? I guess we wouldn't have a community any more if this would have happened.
The third alternative (announce it and just release it regardless of readiness, software or anything else) would be a sure thing to get everybody happy for some two weeks until they got their Touchpad and realising that the software still isn't ready and that they can't do anything with it, because there is no software for it... Same result as solution 1 and 2.
So, yes... Of course it sucks to wait and of course it would be better if they had released a FINISHED product in January (2 Tablet form-factors and three new phones) but this simply wasn't possible.
Apple isn't anything faster than HP at developing their Hardware, maybe even slower. But they simply are the first-movers (and if needed they cut some things just to release before anyone else, like the Copy&Paste, 3G on their phones, better cameras, front facing camera, APIs, Multitasking etc...). By being the first-mover they dictate the time, what they obviously do very well.
Today is the day the future of WebOS gets even bleaker.
the force is strong.
touchcrap DOA
Not really, though. There really wasn't much in the way of software updates other than new Apple-produced apps. It could have been a lot worse for webOS really.
Honestly I have very little loyalty left for Palm/HP, so I found myself actually rooting for Apple to wow me with some spiffy new software update after I saw what they did with the hardware, but I should have seen the disappointment coming.
Same ol', same ol'. Might come during the summer and still beat out HP, though. Now that'd be truly sad.
It's not. In fact, where I work the general consensus was "meh". They were more excited about the accessories than the actual iPad 2.
So was yesterday, and the day before that.
unfortunately, you're correct, me thinks.
I waited on iPad 1 figuring I'd wait to see what HP would deliver and that the iPad 2 (in typical Apple fashion) would be a significant upgrade. I like the HDMI out (but movies are still limited to 720p by Apple). Love the slender design (HP lags in this area). Love the new cover/stand by Apple. I think I'll still wait for the TouchPad. I think HP has a better vision of integrating devices whereby my phone and my tablet are partners that work together as a pair and also as a team with my desktop.
I'm very anxious about HP improving on speed to market. They may miss the market window, no matter how good the webOS user interface is.
But while tempted by the iPad 2 and the RIM Playbook, I think I'll wait for a Veer and a TouchPad. I'm more work focused than some so that integration is huge for work.
But I also recognize that HP is building a business model that is not constricted to consumer entertainment devices. The first TouchPad has some nice consumer focused features like Beats Audio (an advantage over iPad 1 or 2). But webOS is targeted for devices far beyond the hardware we're debating today. Successful integration across devices (including the cloud), will determine webOS's ultimate success, not the first batch of new devices from HP.
HDMI out is a $39 add on. I am sure HP can come up with an add on as well.
I heard rumors that Touchstone v2 is supposed to have HDMI out.
And that the Touchpad (maybe even the Pre 3) might send their signal wirelessly to the Touchstone which has an HDMI-out...
I admit I would pay even $ 79 for such an "add on" (especially as this is also necessary for the transfer of my messages from my Pre 3 to my TP)! :)
I'm afraid that timing-wise the real issue will be TouchPad vs. iPad 3.
Anyone who wants a tablet NOW will go buy an iPad (some will go XOOM), but other than the Palm faithful no one will wait for HP.
TouchPad will come out in summer of '11 and will sell some, but there won't be a pent up demand except amongst said Palm faithful who will be just darned near dead from waiting so long...
HP has a tough road ahead because they need to convince non-Palm faithful to buy. Those folks will have heard how great the iPad is from their friends for over a year and a half (and TWO versions of iPad) before the TouchPad hits the market.
What are the odds HP will price their pad less than the iPad? To me pricing was the real coup Apple pulled on the iPad from day 1. It made Steve Ballmer cry I'm sure. Microsoft pushed tablets for nearly a decade before Apple entered the market and they are in far worse shape at the moment than HP/Palm... $500 is a magic price. More than that and people demand full on notebook capabilities. Sadly for HP to compete they need to be at least $100 less than the iPad. Then they will pick up the people who really want an iPad, but who still think $500 is too much.
I've read the debates in the Android forums as well. Those folks are sneering at the iPad2's specs vs the XOOM. Problem is the average consumer (and largest customer base) has no clue what the specs mean, BUT sure as heck know what higher price means to them. If your specs are higher than the iPad and so is your price, then your specs are too high...
Having said that, I DO understand the specs and want an epic-speed demon device, BUT I'm also a cheapskate and won't spent much cash. (I did just buy an HP notebook that I'm loving.)
What Apple has done very well is find a sweetspot of specs/price.
I'm pulling for HP to really do well with WebOS, but so far I'm not sold. The POTENTIAL is there for them to pull a real game changing move, BUT potential has to be realized to become fact. I hope they can do it.
ipad2 is hardly out-speced by any android tab. RAM is hardly an issue with the IOS now cuz it simply runs just fine and doesnt multitask at the lvls others do so its really not a point to b discussed... start talking to me about specs on a tab when its running windows 7. other than that i dont care too much
I don't give a **** about either of them.
youre my mother?
IDK, from a spec + app perspective, IP2 looks impressive and I am a DIEHARD Palm fan. I may have to co-exist in both worlds and go with an IP2 and a Pre 3 (if it ever comes to Sprint). I don't think TTS would be enough to convince me otherwise.
Maybe you can convince Zhephree to make an iPad version of Neato!
I liked the iPad 2 hardware, but I think I might swing for the original now that it's available for $350 as an Apple sanctioned refurb. Then I can just sell it if something better comes along because Apple stuff has such good resale value.
EDIT: I'm not sure you even can make an iPad version of Neato! The reality of the walled garden sets in...
Both devices will be wasted if you only buy one product from HP and one product from Apple.
Sure the Touchpad is the thickest of the bunch, but that's a small price to pay to keep the advantage of a slide-out keyboar.....wait ..what?...nevermind...
nice
I'll take some added size for better audio. Beats Audio is an advantage over iPad 1 or 2. Sound is part of the experience.
Maybe the extra thickness is due to the gesture ar...um...due to the rear-facing camer...ahh...it must be due to the replaceable batter...err...oooh...it is the SD card slo...*sigh*
[EDIT: In all fairness, I have no idea how much thickness the induction (TouchStone charging) and communication (Tap-To-Share) coils add.]
I don't like Apple products, but dammit if they don't know how to hype up their products and ship them out quickly after an announcement. That being said, I still plan to hold out for the TouchPad...I like WebOS and the features they showed at the Think Beyond (Tap to Share, receiving texts on tablet, etc.) cement my decision. I have no use for a rear-facing camera, so that addition to the iPad means very little to me..to be honest, I never understood why people demanded one anyway...front-facing, sure. But a rear-facing camera is just clumsy and really serves no purpose on a tablet of that size.
you read some previous posts? they make some good arguments for the rear camera
There is no good argument for a rear camera for a tablet. A 10 inch tablet is too large to make people want to use it for a camera, and unless you expect to put a tablet to your ear to make a private call, you will have a cell phone with you in addition to a tablet, which will be far better for taking a picture due to device size.
yeah there is... all the major competing tabs have one and the TP doesnt. SOME people might prefer it. one lacking feature on a product like this could cause some1 to buy something else yuh know?
Nope. I would have already had an Ipad if I was that excited about it. The Ipad2 doesn't do much for me either.
However, the Touchpad doesn't have a video out (HDMI, port, something!?) which is really disappointing. And no, DLNA does nothing for me at work or anywhere else that hasn't and for cost effective purposes, will not be adopting it anytime soon. *sigh*
yeah no video out is a huge fail to me. i really want to be able to mirror my tab on my big tv.
i still like the TouchPad for everything it has to offer, but I'm a bit turned off by its bulk and weight. the iPad 2 is much slimmer and lighter, and yet Apple manages to do this while continually having the best build quality when compared to its competitors. The other thing that worries me is that iOS 5 will likely be announced in April which could be a major overhaul of the OS and shrink the software gap that webOS has over iOS at the moment.
No, I don't think that this will be a major overhaul. Now the hundreds of thousands of Apps and the competition are going to really disturb Apple. They don't want to loose the compatibility to their existing Apps, because an iPad or iPhone without Apps (or lets say "just" 20 to 40% of the actual ones) would be just a huge invitation to the competing platforms.
And they won't be able to do a major overhaul without loosing some compatibility to former iOS-Versions. At some point they will have to do it, but not now just yet... They really have to suffer before they do that.
For me the announcement of the iPad 2 was the point when Apple jumped the shark. Let's see when everybody else realises it too.
You're right, it's NOT just about the specs. Today it is also about the PRICE. The iPad 1 is now selling for $399. That is almost too good to pass up.
Price/Value proposition is heavily weighted on the 350,000+ apps that it can run. i know quality vs quantity but there's so much quality apps that aren't on the horizon. Netflix, Hulu, Epicurious, Every Major Cable News network...the list goes on and on...
im not convinced that webos has much life left in it. WebOS is by far more intuitive then it's competitors but i can't seem to convince anyone at all that it's a real competitor to android muchless iOS and if we can't increase the user base there's no hope. P.S. Navigation software is a huge gap that i can't defend.
its called ZERO mindshare.
Entirely right. No one knows what WebOS is, and there isn't anything anyone can point to to say 'this is why you should care'.
Tap to share! share what? You have few apps.
Multitasking! neat, but you have like 3 apps you use, do they really need to be open all the time?
Its not an apple device! So it will be unsupported, abandoned by its parent company, and take years to produce an upgraded version.
Its black! Well, ya got me there...
There are many pluses when it comes to WOS versus iOS and others, but the problem is, they are things the normal person doesn't give a **** about. Easier to develop for? But I won't get but 100 customers... Most people can barely set the time on their microwaves, let alone program for a mobile OS, so at what point does it matter? WOS is destined to languish in the hearts and minds of technogeeks that know they have a superior product, but can't explain it to a bystander without a full lecture on how a computer works. Luckily, I don't need my phone to be capable of all the things it never will do - so I'll remain loyal for the time being, and enjoy being a technogeek.
This. +1 from a fellow technogeek.
You're right with zero consumer mindshare of WebOS but that's why HP has its distribution channels where they can move it through their VARs. As long as the Touchpad isn't complete **** that's lots of bundled sales in education, industry sectors. Then as that takes off, consumer mindshare will start to develop slowly. (hopefully)
Over the next few years, apps are going to die out, just like they did for desktop OSes. Most people just fire up a web browser, and get their information that way. I don't need a weather app, have a bookmark. I don't need a stock app, have a bookmark.
I surveyed a dozen people with iPhones at my job about the apps they have and use and they all said that they really don't use much. Pretty much the major one people mentioned was Shazam. That's something that you can't do with a browser (which will change as HTML5 evolves to build-in microphone access). Oh and they mentioned games like Angry Birds, but those are already on webOS.
WebOS is ahead of the curve by realizing that people interact with the web today. Apps, with few exceptions are mostly so Windows 98.
When everything is on the web, it won't matter what OS you have as long as the browser is good. It's why you don't see too many Linux people complain about lack of apps. It's not an issue.
Yes, but I prefer having a custom ui, especially on a small screen. The browsers ui is made to work with every website, while an apps can be specifically made for that function.
webOS is sooooo ahead of the curve, that actual web apps (ie in the browser) don't even have access to GPS. In 2011. Something that was available in Android and iPhone 2 years ago.
Nice try though.
Really? Notice that without Flash, Apple devices need custom built apps...apps are going to die out WHEN?
Even on the PC side, you have people using web based e-mail, but the moment they start to use a real e-mail program, they have a hard time going back to web based client.
I really hope HP can beat it in price.
i dont believe it can. OH, and if you want the original iPad, Apple is selling it for $399.
fyi...
Or as a refurb with the same 1 year warranty for $349.
I think the place where HP loses, Big, is the Bottom Line - Available? What was that I Heard? "As Cool as HP?" - I vaguely remember some one saying that.
Apple announces 3/2/11, and Available 3/11/11
HP announces 2/9/11 Available "Planed" Summer(?)2011
"Apple announces 3/2/11, and Available 3/11/11
HP announces 2/9/11 Available "Planed" Summer(?)2011 "
It's called "Anti-trust". If you lock up your competitors from being able to do business because it's Taiwan and there's no FTC or DOJ there, what can you expect.
What it M$ had code in Win7 that prevented any other browser from being installed\working? That be fair? or AT&T blocking other CLECs from using their towers so you can't get Comcast services because they can't run the lines on the existing poles...fair?
Apples doing the low-down-dirty to ensure they keep iPad from losing #1 spot like the iPhones did (currently #3 and declining.
Didn't keep the Motorola Xoom or the original Samsung Galaxy Tab from getting to market. *shrug* If the TouchPad used the exact same components as the iPad2, maybe I would agree.
The delay on the TouchPad is totally software related. WebOS3.0 is simply not ready to launch at this time. Hardware manufacturing can be nailed down to specific dates, that's not an issue for large companies paying partners to produce units, it's all laid out contractually. Software, on the other hand, is extremely difficult to estimate. Not to mention waiting for software partners to polish up the apps you want your device to launch with.
Uh-huh...
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2380531,00.asp
I'd like to see a "fully optimized and finalized" version of webOS on the devices HP is already shipping!
wait a few more months.
As usual.
I will wait for the TouchPad. Not that impressed with iPad2.
The TouchPad will be late to the party and probably get the rear facing camera for the TouchPad 2. They aren't very practical, but people still want them and the product loses value to them if it doesn't have it.
Is a front-facing camera really necessary on a 3G phone? Probably not, but it's nice to have and you are behind now if you don't have one. At least the Pre3 is getting one.
Do they really want a rear-facing camera?
Yes.
y not?
Yes, I really want one. I have my departments testing the efficacy of using tablets to quickly document product failures, and send out rapid notifications on the fly without having to return to their desks.
In reality, all Apple was able to provide was improved specs and more speed. It's about as much of an improvement over the past iteration as the iPhone 3GS was over the iPhone 3G.
Hardware is nice, but software is the difference maker. To that end they showed off some incredible apps available for up sale but not much in iOS 4.3. I guess that they're waiting for iOS 5 to show off what they've done over the last year with their OS, their native apps and their SDK. And like last year, iPad owners have to wait a few months for the features that they were hoping for.
My guess is that HP was on the sideline cheering because their vision for a connected device ecosystem remains better than what Apple showed off today. Apps are still in silos and so are devices unless you pay $99 per year for Mobile Me.
Look at the big picture here: Apple has actually begun developing a separate OS for their pad... this is a commitment of resources, and when they do that, it usually happens in a big way. This tells me that iPad1 was merely a testing of the markets, and a way to generate the revenue to get into the 'pad market in earnest, and truly develop a usable product. Something tells me iPad2 will put them squarely in the tablet lead for several years to come. Until someone out-innovates Apple, or gets to market faster than them (and I bet iPad 3 is already spec'd, priced, and planned, so this wont be easy) that won't change.