USB-IF To Palm: Apple is In-Spec; You, We're Not So Sure 61
Another chapter in the iTunes / Pre Music Sync saga has opened, with the USB Implementers Forum responding to Palm's letter regarding the USB standard. Right, that last sentence might be Greek to you, so let's start at the beginning, which means that you're looking at a long one here, so follow us after the break!
The Story Up to Now
- Palm enables iTunes Sync via a clever hack that makes the Pre identify itself as an iPod made by Palm.
- Apple hints via a snarky note in their support documents that Apple doesn't support 3rd party sync, Palm responds with equal snark that disabling sync would be a 'direct blow to their users'
- Apple snorts, breaks iTunes/Pre sync with the iTunes 8.2.1 update, which appears solely designed to block the Pre.
- 8 days later, Palm releases webOS 1.1, which re-enables sync
- The next day we reveal how Palm re-enabled iTunes Sync, instead of just pretending to be an iPod, the Pre pretends to be an iPod made by Apple.
- That same day it is revealed that Palm sent a letter to the USB-IF complaining that Apple was improperly abusing the USB spec by blocking certain vendor IDs in iTunes (this despite the fact that Palm itself was abusing the spec by having the Pre pretend to be something it's not).
- As time goes on, the mainstream media takes note.
- With the major release of iTunes 9, Apple once again breaks iTunes Sync.
- We anxiously await webOS 1.2, to see if Palm will once again play this iTunes / Pre Sync game of cat and mouse.
Today's Chapter
Ok, so today's development, courtesy of Digital Daily's John Paczkowski, relates to step 6 of our timeline above. Here's the deal: the USB-IF, which oversees the USB spec and approves vendor's ability to use the USB logo, got the aforementioned letter from Palm complaining about Apple. Their findings: Apple's probably cool:
In the view of the USB-IF, Palm's allegation (if true) does not establish that Apple is using its Vendor ID (VID) contrary to the USB-IF's policies. [...] Therefore, under present USB-IF policies, the USB-IF does not consider the alleged use, without more, to be 'improper.'
That is a swat, eh? If we were the guessing type, we'd say that the USB-IF is taking the tack that Apple's hardware implementation is within spec, and what they do with their software (iTunes) is out of their jurisdiction.
Not outside the USB-IF's jurisdiction: spoofing another company's Vendor ID. See point 5, above. When Palm alerted the USB-IF to the fact that they were doing that (and likely felt justified because Apple fired first), the USB-IF responded with a curt "ORLY?"
I attach for your information the USB-IF's adopted and published policy regarding Vendor Identification Numbers (VIDs). Under the policy, Palm may only use a single Vendor ID issued to Palm for Palm's usage. [...] Please clarify Palm's intent and respond to this potential violation within 7 days.
Now to be clear, the USB-IF appears to be responding to Palm's original, pre-webOS 1.1 intention, not to an intention to re-enable sync for 1.2. Still, not a good sign for the future of iTunes sync for the Pre.
Palm has this to say:
“We engaged with the USB-IF because we believe consumers should have freedom and choice in how and where they use the non-rights managed media they already own. We are reviewing the letter from the USB-IF and will respond as appropriate.”
Hey, Palm, we know a lot of people love soap operas, but we're starting to get a little tired of them. We're coming around to the argument that you shouldn't have a core feature subject to the whims and fancys of a direct competitor who clearly isn't interested in making nice. There are plenty of other, safer ways to get iTunes sync going that, while they require 3rd party software, can't be as easily smacked down by the big A. "Freedom and choice" might include the freedom to not have to wonder whether your music sync will work and the choice to use something else.
Thanks to everybody who sent this in!
61 Comments
Bored with this whole saga. Palm needs to just move on. It was a dumb idea.
+1
+2; time to focus on what's important, getting webos as a potential and equally capable alternative to android and apple.
I actually think it was kind of a cool idea, and Apple are being jerks for intentionally breaking it. But I agree it's probably not worth pursuing at this point (and spoofing someone else's USB ID is not a great idea).
I'd much rather have the 1.2 functionality over itunes sync. Are there really people out there who are crying into their warm milk before bed every night because their Pre won't play nicely with itunes?
This is a perfectly written article. Love the playfulness and agree that it is time for Palm to move on. Apple has taken their ball and gone home... time to find a new friend.
Microsoft should allow Palm to sync with Zune 4 for the hell of it =D. It's better then itunes anyway.
TOOOOOOOOOOOTALLLY! AGREE!
I think Palm should really focus on other things, but if they can poke Apple at the same time I don't mind, I don't use iTunes, but I love seeing Palm fight Apple.
I think it's obvious Palm is just using this as a press vehicle - it gets free news stories in major outlets for the Pre and drums up groundswell support for Palm as the "underdogs" fighting for the common people and big bad Apple as the evil monopolists locking everyone out.
I foresee Palm fighting it one more round with 1.2/1.2.1, then if Apple blocks it again, releasing a BB Media Sync type plug-in with a press release to the effect of, "We tried to offer the user the best possible experience for their media, but Apple has decided to fight the wishes of the consumer, so we've been forced to offer this not-as-user-friendly method," just so they can twist the dagger once more.
Do I care? Not really - iTunes sync is nice, but I've been recently (especially post-Zune 4.0 with Smart DJ) moving back to my Zune for main media consumption, and worst-case scenario is I can just use doubleTwist for iTunes sync. Hell, if Palm really wants to make me happy, they could build in MTP support so I could just plug-in my Zune library into WiMP and sync with my Pre (although they'd really need to license PlaysForSure to make that really worthwhile... which would be AWESOME - Pre compatible with Zune Pass = Zune killer. And yes, it's possible to do PFS with a Linux OS - Archos has done it for years, and is actually doing it with their new Android tablet.).
Interesting that the USB-IF should say this. Seems a little counter-intuitive to me. What's the point of the USB spec, if not to allow hardware to integrate seamlessly with software? The point of USB was supposed to be that if you plugged, it played -- with whatever USB-aware software you were using at the time. This kind of thing opens up the door to rival companies locking each other out via USB, and Apple should be very careful about opening that door. What happens to iPod/iPhone sales if suddenly Windows doesn't recognize them as USB devices? Sounds like a way to drive Zune sales to me. (I'm not suggesting that Microsoft would render all current Apple iPhones/iPods inoperable. But I could see MS deciding that syncing future iPhones/iPods shouldn't be a walk in the park.)
I know that itunes is ubiquitous, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck.
I like drag-and-drop just fine. Palm should wave bye-bye to itunes as it disappears in the rear view mirror.
why on earth would anyone want to run itunes on their PC if they don't have to? that is one buggy "virus-like" piece of crappy slow software.
when I got rid of my iPhone, I deleted itunes, reformatted my pc and never looked back.
1998: real player
2009: iTunes...except this time everyone just loves apple so itunes gets a pass
Palm really should use its pull with Elevation Partners and the music industry, add playlist management directly to their music player app (it's been done by homebrew), and omit the desktop option entirely by allowing people to download music from the Amazon music store (or similar) directly to their device and charging it off their cell provider account, similar to how folks without data plans pay for text messaging, etc. I've long felt that hooking up to a desktop or laptop to manage your playlist and buy music is clumsy. You shouldn't even need that stuff. This is supposed to be a cloud device, here. You're supposed to make multiple providers sync together...that would be a fine example of doing so.
Sorry, but people still want music on their desktop(s) PLUS an easy way to take it with them.
I totally agree with you in principle - I've taken to playing music, podcasts, Pandora, Accuradio, and MLB audio from my Pre instead of my desktop, even when I'm at my desk. However, in practice:
1) The Pre can't rip a CD I already own
2) Managing files in webOS isn't as convenient as on a desktop, especially if you need to do tagging, file organizing, format conversions, etc.
3) The Pre only has 8GB, which isn't enough for your entire music catalog if you happen to use it for significant amounts of other media or data (apps, video, photos, work files, etc)
4) I can't stream or share music from my Pre to my TiVos or other home computers.
PLAY THE GAME PALM THERE IS NOTTING CHEAPPER THAN FREE PUBLICITY.
but bad publicity is expensive. and bad publicity is what palm gets. for me, as a customer, not apple is the bad guy, but palm. I have nothing bought from apple, so if I buy a phone from palm, its there business that the phone is working as promised. if something breaks the functionality, palm is the evil. I, as a customer simply want something that works and I don't want the think whether something breaks if I am updating a third party software.
palm plays childish games that lowers there credibility as a phone selling company.
my iratation with this is, I own 4 different macs and would just like apple to understand that it is not just a war with palm but with palm users that are also mac users and as a long time apple user as well as a long time palm user the whole contraversy realy irratates me !!!
Why would any Pre owner upgrade their iTunes when they know the only new feature is that it won't work with their Pre????
I use iTunes for my old iPod, which means it is easier to add my Pre than have another app for its sync.
Which means now I just ignore the pop-ups to upgrade to the newer versions.
One reason someone might upgrade is that Apple has made iTunes 9 a requirement to get video programming from the iTunes Store. You can still download music but video is out for 8.2.1 and earlier.
I always thought #6 was kind of ballsy, since Palm was clearly skirting standards themselves to get working with iTunes. It sort of felt like the Kamikaze approach - "we don't mind getting slapped down on this as long as Apple does too, since it would open iTunes to everyone"
I thoroughly enjoyed the cat-and-mouse game, but I'm sure this was not the response they were hoping for. The buzz and negative Apple publicity was nice while it lasted, but I now concede that it's time to end it.
...unless they have another quick iTunes work-around they can throw into 1.2, since it makes me giggle :)
i personally hate itunes. When i ditch the iphone i ditched itunes as well, but i applaud palm for fighting apple for this feature. I know many people enjoy itunes syncing,why, i can't say.
I think that iTunes does a better job than DoubleTwist, and it transfers the artwork and playlists.
However, I do think that Palm really has nothing to lose, and only free press to gain by continuing.
I'm really torn on this one...
If Palm's in this for the publicity that's one thing, but it seems pretty childish to keep going with all this iTunes back and forth. Frankly as others have stated, I'm getting kind of tired of it. It smacks of pettiness and I'd rather see Palm taking the high road.
iTunes is crappy software and a crappy store. Music Sync is way overrated, especially for a device that's supposed to essentially be its own computer. The Pre should be able to manage media files on its own, including purchasing, downloading via EVDO (already available via a WebOS Internals hack) as well as WiFi, and not rely on the (demonstrated lack of) goodwill of a direct competitor.
Instead of Palm spending time and energy figuring out how to poke Apple in the eye, how about beefing up the music player so Pre owners don't need iTunes or to sync to a computer just to manage their music?
FYI, based on the leaked firmware, 1.2 brings Amazon mp3 over EVDO, no need for a "hack".
Palm....strike a deal with DoubleTwist....DVD_Jon will figure it out. That would irk Apple even more.
I personally think the cat and mouse game is funny. Apple designed iTunes with the intentions for people to get digital music and make your CD's digital with music we own, so why can't we sync music that "we own" to the phone "we own"? What Apple is doing is illegal from the getgo. Mind you Palm is hacking into iTunes is illegal to but shows president. Everybody has the right to sync "their music" to waht ever device they want? Apple is becoming a monopoply.
"president" or "precedence"... LOL
Fuck iTunes. Why would anyone not shackled to Apple's tower of mutually proprietary hardware & software want to use iTunes of their own free will?
Palm is setting Apple up for anti-trust lawsuits. Apple already has the market share, they just needed to do something anti-competitive.
sorry this is a long post, lot of frustration, not at this soap opera, but at apple...
face it apple has turned into a crap company. i used to like them when THEY WERE THE UNDERDOG.
now all the stupid commercials with those 2 douchebags, i repeat 2 douchebags. coz there both really annoying. has everyone all f--king goo goo ga ga over apple.
last time i checked apple DOESNT WORK WITH SH-T. my brother has a mac book and he CAN'T run have the software i can on my PC. plain and simple.
APPLE's are for the unintelligent populace who cant do anything on there own. they need a stupid f--king moron on TV or a "APPLE technician" (oooooh) to help them out with they're faulty equipment and Ipoo's that are programmed to die right after your precious warranty expires. i swear its a conspiracy.
granted- its nice to use the pre with Itunes. im using 8.0 and i stopped downloading the updates coz they want TOO MUCH control over "YOUR" music. f--k off its my music. i bought the f--king music with my money why can't i listen to it on my friends computer...oh i can only allow 5 computers to access my store bought music... oh thank you, thank you, thank you, apple... yea right!
the record companies are going under. nobody buys full albums anymore. record sales are horribly low... the only money artists' make now is from ticket slaes and merch. the rest goes to one of the 3 big labels that produced the crap(TOP 40)(joke haha). theres other companies and sites you can download music from. and software to manage it. i hope very soon that apple can still talk with that foot in its mouth. i dont see them being around very long. they are becoming more and more desperate...
added extra: i bet palm could make one of hell of a bad ass replacement for that POS they call a iPOD
bhartman36 had a very good point.. this could very well spark some changes in the way companies use their usb rights.. apple would be very hurt if microsoft decided no to "recognize" their devices.. interesting
honestly they made a whole fricken operating system for a tiny phone. They can't make just a media player for a big powerful desktop computer?
I don't mind them screwing with apple but it seems to me that they easily do just as good as itunes. i say just do both.
I think it's obvious that Palm no longer wants to write or be obligated to support desktop OS software.
Agree. I have been saying the same thing. Palm should either create a bb style means for syncing or partner with a third party to bring that functionality. I personally don't have any of my music in Itunes, I prefer drag and drop. Palm should partner with the makers of MAGIX MP3 maker, (or other)that suite syncs with almost any device including digital camera's.
"I personally don't have any of my music in Itunes, I prefer drag and drop."
Why? Why limit yourself when Napster, Rhapsody, Songbird, and others that will allow music\video\playlists to be managed through the app and transferred to your Pre.
Jobs RDF is some TRULY powerful sh!t since people thing if they can't\won't use iTunes, there nothing else besides usb drag-n-drop. (o_0)
Come on guys! End the contest and run your business with your strengths, not your egos.
My suggestion is that we just get a ruler and see who wins!
I prefer the itunes sync to work - so I'm glad palm has enabled it... I hope 1.2 fixes the sync with itunes 9. I have no idea if they *should* do it - but I'm glad they did do it...
Yall on that itunes sync bulls**t again. See who palm is really working for. when is palm going make its own pretunes. stop kissing apples ass.
Wouldn't it be quite easy for Palm to store their Vendor ID in some well-defined and read-write location, so that it allowed a third-party developer to replace it by any other Vendor ID (including Apple's)?
I like that it has itunes sync, I know a lot of ppl who use it. I would of course prefer something else since I've switched to foobar. And making playlists on the device should have been there from the get go, regardless of how it would sync.
but how is this free press good? people keep saying this but how in the world is bad press any good in this case? palm doesn't need to be labeled as an idiot (which seems to be the case given there were better alternatives to using itunes). they could have done what BB does and fought apple w/o spoofing their own ID.
Here is the address to give Apple feedback.
http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunesapp.html
personally I think it is offensive that they deliberately stop another device from syncing.
USB (Universal Serial Bus) is supposed to be all about allowing any device that meets the spec to plug and play. Palm work with the spec - Apple are out of order for deliberately excluding the Pre.
Why are they trying to piss off iTunes users?
Thanks for the link. I submitted my feedback, and it wasn't pretty. I personally can't stand Apple or iTunes, but my family has ipods so there you go. Was nice using one set of software while it lasted. I'm all for Palm bending the rules. Palm is the new underdog. Apple is the new Microsoft.
I came here to see why the heck anybody would even want to use Itunes. I use Windows Media Player and that works just fine. I've always used Amazon MP3, since the day they opened their MP3 store, so I'm hardly dependent on Apple for my music. I've noticed other people here are asking the same question. Screw Apple. Those douches over at apple are bigger corporate douchebags than Microsoft ever was.
Two comments:
1. Since the Pre only mimics an iPod when in Media Sync mode, I don't see this as a violation of USB specs. It is clear that this is only to circumvent Apple's semi-monopolistic device lock-in.
2. The easy way out would be for Palm to license one of the 3rd party sync tools and offer it as a free download to Pre/Pixi buyers. Palm doesn't want to do desktop software anymore but a simple cross-license agreement shouldn't be too bad. This lets Palm continue to advertise iTunes compatibility while not having to skirt standards and constantly come up with new hacks.
Oo man...not these comments again!
Palm! listen us, we want our own PALM created syncing client. Create your own, or partner with an existing client that works and is functional. I don't too care about syncing with itunes. Warn your customers to turn off automatic update on their existing itunes software.
Palm make your own player or enable support for windows media player or something.
Though a non microsoft, non apple client would be much better.
Again...WHY the need to create a new client? SEVERAL existing apps work 100% RIGHT NOW!
See my post: http://www.precentral.net/usb-if-palm-apple-spec-you-were-not-so-sure#co...
If apple is locking people out of itunes sync via usb....I say micosoft should step in and lock all apple devices out of windows via usb...and see if they like the effect it'll have on apples little mobile toys...bet you they'd open up itunes to 3rd party syncs then fully supported.
1 - Create an "audio" folder in your Pre via USB drive
2 - Copy MP3 files to that folder
3 - Download Music Player Remix (currently a homebrew app)
4 - Don't complain about I-Tunes when you don't even need ANY program to put songs on your PRE
5 - Enjoy the fact that Palm is not run by Nazis like Apple and you can do WHATEVER you want on your awesome Palm devices...no limitations as long as people exist that can write code and as long as Palm doesn't force you to only use their approved apps
Thank you...that is all
I still use Itunes because I still use my Touch for long trips. So syncing my Pre to itunes is key (e.g. playlists, music organization, etc.). It's a pain that I now have to find an alternative just to sync my Pre and basically have two music management programs. Apple/Palm figure something out!
It was a good try, but the USB-IF is basically saying even if you are a failing company, the rules still apply to you. Palm was attempting to play the "Poverty equals Piety" game, basically saying "We're not talking about a lot of users here, look at our market share, can't we just break the rules so that at least they can use iTunes?".
If the USB-IF were a government entity, it would have worked. Apple would be viewed as "successful" (a synonym for "evil" in government speak) and Palm as "needy" (translates to "wholesome" at gov.org) and Apple's rights would have been scuttled.
I have a Palm Pre - I do not use iTunes.
Precentral doesn't speak for all of us! I for one want Palm to keep fighting the good fight. There's really only one more round of this to go - there's nothing else Apple can do to block the Pre after this new fix.
Apple is the biggest online music retailer in existence. Not only that, but they're the biggest music retailer in the U.S. period. And it's expected that we can only listen to that music on iTunes or an Apple approved device. Sorry, but I don't buy it. If Microsoft can't tell you what browser to use, Apple can't tell you what device to use to listen to MP3s.
I'd love to see another sync solution, but I'd say Palm is smart for enabling iTunes as an option. Like I said, we can only possibly have one more round of this.
Plus I like watching a good fight. I can't believe you guys would rather not.
As long as it doesn't delay WebOS releases who cares? Seriously as long as it's not hurting you then why get your panties in a twist? Palm aren't listening to you anyway (probably a good thing).
The big irony here is that much more time has been put in here arguing that Palm should drop iTunes sync (or use something else) than Palm have put into maintaining compatibility!
I'm guessing with the 1 man-week time limit Palm seem to have set for how hard they're willing to maintain iTunes compatibility there's not going any more schedule impact than when a single Palm developer takes a single week of vacation!
Besides I think the box mentions iTunes compatibility, so spending a man week to keep things running is a lot less effort than creating sticky labels to cover that line on the box and applying them.
Really, this is simple.
What if Jeff Hawkins was having an AWESOME family reunion, with food, music, free "I'm Pre, R U?" shirts, etc., but they had a guard at the door who would only let you if your name was "Hawkins"?
Well, everyone would print up fake ID claiming to be named "Hawkins", right? Otherwise, you couldn't get in to enjoy all the cool music and great food! And just because it would be wrong... well, this is GREAT food and REALLY COOL music, so what's right and wrong have to do with it? Forge the ID and get in, and call the cops if they guard gives you a hard time!!!
I don't see why there's so much negativity here with people saying Palm shouldn't bother with this.
I want my phone to just work. I already have my music organized in iTunes, with different playlists for my ipod classic in my car, ipod nano for running, and for pre. I choose Pre because it's easy to do use, and installing some sketchy plugins does not go along that "easy to use" line.
Palm, please keep the iTunes support working.
Was exciting at first but now I'm dreading the drama... I wonder if they keep trying because they don't want headlines such as "Palm loses battle with Apple in sync war" Maybe Palm dug themselves in a hole.
Personally I wish they could drop this but am scared of the negative press.
I am much better off with Amazon MP3 + MediaMonkey
Their are other ways already in play for the webOS to get music. They had a nice run but its time to better spend the limited resources on more productive things like making API support for music playlists or ability to export Palm Profile data to something tangible. Yes we get Apple is a douchebag and those that know this just stop using Itunes. Cough cough the Pre has AmazonMP3 store. Let Apple's douchebaggetry shoot themselves in the foot.
To me, how hard they should fight this is dependent upon how many resources it takes to do. I'm fine with it if it only takes a half hour of development time. I would have a problem with it if it took a whole work week to do (which seems to be Palm's internal limit on how far they'll push this). A whole work week to fix something this unnecessary is excessive.