Verizon Wireless to customers: GPS issue? What GPS issue? 125
As many within the PreCentral and broader webOS community know, I have been actively working with Verizon Wireless to try to resolve the longstanding, well-reported, and serious GPS problem with the Palm Pre Plus smartphones it has sold: Assisted GPS, the quickest way to get a fairly accurate fix, is (probably deliberately) limited so that it can only work with Verizon's for-pay Navigation software. When users don't have or wish to pay the $10/month for VZ Navigator, they must still launch the app as far as the splash screen (either manually or via James Harris' excellent GPS Fix app and patch) in order to wake the GPS for other location-enabled apps (Foursquare, Minimap, Twitter clients, Navit, YPMobile, etc.). This problem has existed since the launch of the Pre Plus on Verizon Wireless in January 2010, and has persisted through continued (and delayed) webOS updates, including last evening's 1.4.5.
The saga of my efforts to get a straight answer from Verizon and their MiniTrue-inspired final answer after the break.
My active efforts began in late May via a call and e-mail exchange with VZW's Executive Support team, and after no action for six weeks, I escalated in early July by copying VZW's CEO, Lowell C. McAdam, on an e-mail message. That led to a few weeks of back-and-forth e-mails and conversations with two more Exec support staffers, finally leading to a meeting with Verizon Wireless's local Data Solutions Manager, David Besemer on July 28th. At that meeting, I demonstrated the issue to Mr. Besemer, and even (at his request) traded my Pre Plus for a brand-new one so that he could return mine to Palm "for testing." Throughout this time, I at least felt I was making some progress, however slow, to justify my extensive time and effort spent.
A few more weeks went by without any follow-up by VZW until a conference call on August 25th, led by yet another VZW person, Bruce Simon. That call took a sharply negative turn, as Mr. Simon repeatedly claimed that Google Location (a software-based option within webOS that reports data to Google, and that does not provide the speed, altitude, and similar information available from the hardware GPS) was "acceptable to other customers." Mr. Simon also confirmed the VZ Navigator workaround, but stated that it was a "hole" that Verizon Wireless intended to close. At the close of the conversation, Mr. Simon requested that I write a memo to him with my summary of the call and that, before I posted anything publicly about the discussion, I give him and his colleagues a reasonable time to draft their own response. I agreed to do so, and offered to wait until Friday, September 10th for the reply.
In fact, the reply arrived late last night (September 14th). Here is the gist of their response:
Verizon Wireless admits that aGPS is limited on the Palm Pre Plus and their 'resolution' is a promise to offer Verizon-specific APIs instead of using the standard location services built into webOS.
Or, to be more detailed, here is how Mr. Simon puts it in the letter:
Both standalone GPS and assisted GPS (aGPS) are available from Verizon Wireless on the Palm Pre Plus, however, aGPS is only available in support of VZ Navigator. We are working on offering location APIs / LBS enablers for our developer community. Please check the http://developer.verizon.com for updates. Later this month at our VDC Conference 2010 event, we will be talking about these LBS/location enablers in detail. More information can be found at http://www.vdcconference.com/techtrack.html. Standalone GPS is available to support third-party applications. David Bessemer confirmed this availability in tests of Google Maps and Minimap; he conducted his test outdoors, with auto-locate turned off.
There are some other troublesome bits in the letter, but that's the key part.
As for me, I'm done trying to get this fixed. I appreciate the support I've gotten from the webOS user community, but I have two day jobs (outside of my freelancing here!) and a family, and can no longer waste any more of my time or energy on this failed attempt to 'collaborate' with Verizon Wireless. While I do not know (and will not speculate) whether the GPS issue is by accident or design1 , Verizon Wireless expressly refuses to acknowledge its existence in the face of overwhelming evidence. As for my own Pre Plus and Verizon Wireless account, I'll continue with both for now, because (other than the GPS issue) they're still my best choices for my needs. Your mileage (and decisions) may vary.
1. Ed note from Dieter: Jonathan is very generous in his restraint. I am compelled to suggest that readers looking to gauge whether this is a bug or an intentional decision by Verizon should note two things: that Verizon has a longtime practice of hobbling GPS and that aGPS works by default in webOS. I suspect it would take more work to break it than to leave it fully functional
Excerpts of some of my communications with Verizon can be downloaded at this PDF link. Here is Verizon Wireless' 9/14/10 response in full:
Dear Mr. Ezor:
Thank you for your feedback and for your patience in explaining your questions and allowing us to investigate the answers. As I now understand it, your basic concern is the availability of standalone GPS and assisted GPS (aGPS) on the Palm Pre Plus, particularly to support third party applications.
Both standalone GPS and assisted GPS (aGPS) are available from Verizon Wireless on the Palm Pre Plus, however, aGPS is only available in support of VZ Navigator. We are working on offering location APIs / LBS enablers for our developer community. Please check the http://developer.verizon.com for updates. Later this month at our VDC Conference 2010 event, we will be talking about these LBS/location enablers in detail. More information can be found at http://www.vdcconference.com/techtrack.html. Standalone GPS is available to support third-party applications. David Bessemer confirmed this availability in tests of Google Maps and Minimap; he conducted his test outdoors, with auto-locate turned off.
A secondary issue raised by your August 25, 2010 memorandum was the disclosure regarding aGPS and GPS on the Verizon Wireless website. At the time you wrote, the disclosure read “Assisted and Standalone GPS”. It seems that you may be reading that disclosure as “Assisted and Standalone GPS in support of third party applications”, however, the underlined language is not part of the advertising. While Verizon Wireless believes this reading is a stretch, we are in the process of removing the reference to “Assisted”.
We recognize you are disappointed with your experience with third-party applications and that you sought an explanation within the original 30-day Worry Free Guarantee return period. Because you first raised the issue during the 30-day Worry Free Guarantee return period, we will extend the Worry Free Guarantee return period to October 13, 2010. This will allow you the opportunity to return the Palm Pre Plus you purchased for a full refund (issued as a credit to your account) and a restoration of your equipment upgrade eligibility date. To take advantage of this offer, please return the phone, along with the battery and charger to the attention of Dory Kincaid at the following address by October 13, 2010:
Verizon Wireless
Executive Relations Department
3601 Converse Drive
Wilmington, NC 28403If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please feel free to contact me at 908-626-8482. If you have any additional concerns regarding Verizon Wireless services please contact Customer Service at 800-922-0204.
Sincerely,
Bruce Simon
125 Comments
VZW is the devil! Switch to Sprint where we not only have no GPS problems, we get Sprint Navigator FREE on plans that cost less than VZW's. Oh, plus free roaming, free mobile to mobile, annual upgrades, etc.
Regardless of sprints "preformance," my AT&T pre works as a decent gps through google maps. It's sad that Vzw are so concerned about money that they would sink a phones ability to do it's intended job.
At this point I wonder if the reason it's taken so long to get the iPhone on Verizon is Verizon's desire to get into the code to screw around with it and add a bunch of their own crap apps. I'm sure Jobs has been balking at it for the last 3-4 years.
I must say, part of my decision to stick with Sprint for the last many years has been due to their never purposely hobbling any device (and providing fixes where a screw up occurs) while quietly allowing (or at least ignoring) the work of polite devs/tweakers.
I don't like carriers screwing with my hardware. At least to a point. They get that where the other big two seem to just not sometimes, especially VZW.
wheres @palmprelawyer because verizon customers may have to result in a class action lawsuit much like blackberry did....which blackberry users won.
he's the guy who wrote this article.
He goes by @webOSquire on Twitter now.
Yep, I do. :) Thanks! {J}
As for where I am re: class action lawsuits, I'm not and never have been a litigator. I've spent my entire career working on (and teaching) collaborative legal methods, aka contracts. I'll leave it to others to consider the litigation side of things. {J}
Unless I misunderstood what VZW was saying, they're suggesting that app developers use VZW specific APIs in order to get access to aGPS. How well will those APIs work on my Sprint Pre? Not so well, I'm guessing.
So Verizon appears to be asking app developers of location aware apps on the Palm platform to write apps that will only work on Verizon's network.
A) If app developers do this, then Verizon is screwing Palm by disabling key functionality on non-Verizon networks
B) If app developers don't do this, then VZW is screwing Palm by disabling key functionality on Verizon's network.
Am I missing something?
Dear developers: Please, do *not* write to APIs that are tied to a specific network.
Dear Palm: Please, do *not* accept any apps into the app catalog that are written to non-universally available APIs
Dear Verizon: Bite me! Screw w/your customers if you like, but leave me alone! I have no relationship with you. I'd like to keep it that way.
As a developer of a location-aware app, I will absolutely include the Verizon APIs in foursquare.
Verizon is doing a terrible thing. Offering proprietary APIs when the OS handles it just fine is a terrible decision. However, I want every possible webOS user to be able to download foursquare and use it. There is no way I will leave out Verizon subscribers because of VZW's bad decisions.
Not only that, VZW does not care if users can't access your app. All they care about is that monthly bill getting paid. You're in a contract and there isn't much you can do about it but complain.
But as a developer, it would be a bad idea to exclude Verizon users, especially if you have a paid app.
It seems to me that it would be better to simply develop a "repair patch" that overwrites Verizon's code breaking and restores the stock WebOS functionality.
Of course, I'm not a programmer, but what little I do know about programming in a Linux-based environment (as that's what WebOS is) tells me that software in Linux is essentially big "text" files with code in them. Just find the right portion(s) of the right files and perform an overwrite with the stock information. Voila! You have aGPS functionality back on a Verizon Pre!
It can't be THAT hard to fix for the kind of people that can create a non-damaging overclocking kernel, can it?
If it isn't so hard...
...then it would have been done already.
Or possibly none of the developers have considered it a big enough issue to be worth their while. Now they might.
Never assume that just because nobody has done something that it can't be done.
;)
With the talents of WebOS Internals and Jason Robitaille in the community, it would have been done by now if it wasn't a big deal. It goes without saying that the demand exists.
I'm not denying that it can't be done. It's just not easy.
;)
So, you're going to write two versions of the app? One that works on VZW and one that works on everyone else?
Is palm going to enable APIs that are available only to verizon customers? Or will Verizon create a V-CAST app store for Palm, in addition to Android:
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/091410-verizon-v-cast-app-store.html
Oops! Dupe.
Vzw = Blowhards
THis is sad. I would be interested in switching to Sprint...but at this time my company supplied pre is on Verizon, and my company isn't planning to switch. I might move my family plan over to Sprint though. None of them have smart phones, but with Sprint they could and we would still be spending less or the same as we do at Verizon with multimedia phones and basic phones.
Hobbling does not make long term customers. This is why I have for many years and will continue to support Sprint.
The unfortunate part is that Verizon is a large telephone company. They act with the arrogance of a large phone company. The GPS issue won't get resolved easily.
Why does literally every major wireless carrier suck? Isn't there room for one of them to...you know, NOT suck and corner the market on lack of suckage?
One might hope...
If I had a Star Trek transporter, I'd beam you a cigar (or an alfalfa sprout - your choice). Bravo... :)
See, that's the thing. You can say Sprint is better than Verizon, or AT&T is better than T-Mobile, or Verizon is better than AT&t...but in the end, it's all Big Telecom and they all have their warts. It just so happens VZW's is their hellbent desire to cripple native functionality on smartphones. They've done it before, they'll do it again...I have just come to live with it since, in every other regard--for me personally--Verizon is awesome. Coverage is unmatched where I live. Customer service is friendly and helpful, whether I'm calling them or visiting one of their stores. And their upgrade policies, at least to me, have been very generous. I won't switch networks because of crippled GPS functionality. I didn't buy the Pre Plus only for the GPS, but for all the other wonderful things it can do and does do on the Verizon network.
Glad I'm on Sprint, even though I'm stuck with the Pre-. I get more than I would on Verizon or AT&T for less money and they don't pull stupid bullshit like this. I got my Pre last year in September and I'm already eligible for an upgrade. Now I just need Palm to actually release something. They have until the EPIC gets froyo to make an announcement.
I'm glad I got my FCC letter on Monday. I will be calling them and letting them know of this decision of Verizon.
I just wish Sprint had better coverage. My buddies on Verizon here in south central Wisconsin get better coverage. Better coverage means better battery life, without the Palm always searching for a better connection, which is what it does when roaming.
you could switch it roaming only
= NO data, NO MMS messages, NO emails. Unless you find Wi-Fi (but still no MMS messages)
Wrong... I've data roamed many times... you just need to enable it on the phone. no patch needed...
they are even dumber than I thought.
but the good news is that their answer indicates the existence of API's that palm could (and should) write to within webOS to resolve this.
my bet is that google did that and that is why vzw doesn't have the same issue on their android phones.
it also says that vzw was clueless about LBS when they designed their GPS/aGPS infrastructure, and they clearly don't plant to fix it until is resolves itself through LTE.
hopefully palm will fix this in webOS 2 and start selling on-locked phones that work well on a carrier network in spite of the carrier's stupidity.
You want Palm to fix this, really?
Verizon breaks it and Palm has to fix it. WOW
Um, why should Palm add custom code for this one carrier that refuses to use the standard?
If Verizon wanted it to be fixed, they wouldn't give it to developers - they would give it Palm. And since Palm's updates have to be approved by Verizon, don't think for a second that Verizon wouldn't mandate that Palm's fix be stripped out before they approved it for release.
This is insane. I had to deal with this crap with my BBerry 8830 until VZW submitted to the class action lawsuit and fixed/unlocked gps with the .45 update on the blackberry world phone.
I think VZW customer support is excellent and their service is as well, but this moronic GPS lock down to make an extra 10 bucks a month is so short sighted and so brutally unfair to their customers.
More and more smartphones are so valuable for location awareness especially with all the apps that can utilize it, it amazes me how someone up top doesn't realize themselves how annoying it is to see the gps showing you 30 miles away from where you are now.
vzw = $$$$
I'm done with VZW, they did this with me and my BB 8830. That is one reason I went to AT&T and got a BB 9000. I came back to VZW for Android and GPS works fine. VZW just wants and extra 10 bucks.
I think it's time to go back to AT&T. VZW needs to learn sometimes it's the little things that keep customers.
People can say what they want about AT&T, but some combination of my wife and I have been with them since 2004, and I honestly have no complaints. No cell phone company is perfect, but the way Verizon treats its customers is ridiculous.
I made the mistake of trying them for less than a month back in May, and after I canceled within my 30 day window, it was like pulling teeth to finally get my final bill and refund from unused service. I canceled on June 3, and I just got my final bill (or what I hope is my final bill) and check for my refund last week.
GLAD to be back on AT&T.
Could it be time for a class action lawsuit?
For all wireless carriers, it's all about how to maximize the revenue out of each and every client. And if you have to do that by artificially - and unethically - restricting the clients' choices and forcing them to pay you exorbitant fees for second-rate services, so be it.
I hope and pray that the day will come when wireless carriers are just that - carriers - and nothing more. Nothing! I want to be able to buy any handset I want DIRECTLY FROM THE MANUFACTURER - NOT!!!! - FROM THE WIRELESS CARRIER. And I will sign up with whatever carrier gives me the best service. Month-to-month, if need be. And if they try to screw me, I switch to another carrier.
I'm sick of handset manufacturers being forced to sign 'exclusivity' agreements with carriers just to get them to allow customers to buy their products. If that's not evidence of anti-competitive behaviour, I don't know what is! I'm not forced to buy a Bell deskset for my landline, why am I forced to buy a Bell phone for my cellular service?
They are all unethical scum, and they deserve nothing but our contempt. Oh, and maybe some guerilla consumer action.
+1
This is what Google attempted to do when they agreed to pay the reserve price on the recent FCC 700MHz auction. They didn't get all of their open stipulations passed but they did get two of them.
1) Users can use any wireless device they wish
2) Users will be able to download any applications and content they wish.
+1000
Damn right. I'm pretty sure that with the way smartphones are taking off, and with landlines going to the wayside for normal consumer use, we'll see some major changes in the next 10 years or sooner.
Consumers don't like to be restricted, and manufacturers will want the same autonomy eventually.
I can't wait.
Welcome to capitalism folks. They all ready made their money off ya and locked you in for the two years.
Actually, capitalism promotes competitive behavior. This is anti-competitive.
In theory, yes, but unrestricted capitalism almost always leads to monopolistic situations. Only government regulation prevents that.
How come the Droid's GPS is not hobbled?
What they fail to address is the disparity between how aGPS is treated on the palm platform and how it is treated on their beloved DROID platform.
This is just more confirmation to me that I did the right thing by returning my Verizon Pre+ within my return window and that I will never EVER do business with Verizon again.
Their doublespeak and refusal to just admit that they have created a hierarchy of smartphone devices is just ridiculous.
--Matt
So can anyone tell me does gps work for 3rd party apps after vz navigator has been activated?
For now, yes. When they patch the "hole"? Probably not.
Well this is a bunch of bull shit... I am on sprint but i have a verizon pre plus on sprint even with the un-modded verizon rom GPS worked fine while on sprint just like the sprint pre did before i got the plus I have since flashed it with the sprint rom and changed all the tokens to sprint But i used it with the verizon rom for a week or 2 before doing so and GPS worked 100% while on the sprint network so this tells me its something they have set up on there towers and not the phone?
Time to contact the BBB also and maybe whoever oversee advertising as we do not have true gps
...and when they simply change advertising literature?
At least people will know and be able to make informed decisions. And then maybe -- hopefuly -- Verizon will become known to even general users as the carrier with bad GPS.
Doesn't addresss the fact that Android works as everyone expects it to.
I now know why Verizon's main color is red BLOOD red... :( I am glad i stuck with sprint through the good and bad times... I feel sorry for people who went over to verizon...
Glad I left Verizon for Sprint... slow updates and nonsense like this GPS issue not to mention their up-charge for these "services". Eff you verizon.
I do feel for the people on VZ tho so let me know if there is any group event to get this resolved and I will participate.
If vzw does make their aGPS/LBS enablers available it seems to me that someone could hack the kernel to know when it is a vzw phone and to hook into those API's so that the application software can still use the standard webOS API calls and get back the information without the specific apps having to be aware of the carrier.
Yeah, but that is way too much like the web browser compatability issues of yore and the code gymnastics website designers had to do to get content to display consistently across all browsers. This has gotten better, but the scars are still there.
Forcing Devs to fix what Verizon shouldn't have broken in the first place is every kind of bad.
Contracts makes us a slave to the carrier for the term of the agreement. I agree with MVpreguy above. They should just be a service provider. It gives them too much control over manufactures and customer choice. I will remember this VZW when my contracts are up. You need to remember who pays the bills.
Cant we complain to FCC somehow? Plus what about a twitter melodrama again?
Can you give us Bruce Simon's e-mail address? When I cancel my VZ Navigator subscription, I'd like someone other than the customer service rep to know that it is out of frustration with their handling of the GPS/aGPS issue.
Bet it won't matter a whit to him.
Maybe not. But, if enough people will cancel VZ Nav, it may get their attention. This has to be a high margin application for them.
If it were, they'd have done something about it by now.
Gah! This burns me up every time I hear about it. I just need to. Punch. Something...
I'll remember this when my contract is up.
Just another item to add to the long list of reasons I'm happy i switched from verizon to sprint years ago and will never ever switch back.
another reason why verizon will never get a cent from me
I'm on Sprint and love their service, but can someone explain how what Verizon does with GPS is so different from what Sprint does with tethering on Android devices? Seems they both lock out features that compete with their paid services
Except that Sprint has no webOS tethering options, paid or otherwise. As far as I know tethering on Sprint is only with the Evo and Epic: i.e. new devices. When Sprint has new webOS devices on offer they will also likely offer tethering as well.
What I was getting at is the fact that Sprint also blocks certain features of a device if that feature competes with a paid service from sprint. I was just wondering if people saw this in the same light as what verizon does.
Thank you for the update, Jonathan. I know a lot of people have been curious about your efforts.
Maybe I'm missing something here (admittedly, I'm no expert) but if Verizon REALLY wanted to fix this, why wouldn't they just release their so-called Verizon-specific APIs to the developer community? I guarantee there would be a patch created within two days that would fix the problem ... probably less.
verizon = over rated
Sprint = happy happy, joy joy
The carriers have to be DEMONOPOLISED This is critical. We've been distracted by Apple v. Google. But that's not the real fight, one for the soul of mobile: http://bit.ly/9ZI5LI
Can at&t users let us know if their gps is working fine? if so, then this is definitely a verizon issue and probably should warrant further investigation. I mean if every other provider is supplying this service, which the phone was advertised at having, and Verizon is the only one who claims to need this API, then there's obviously something wrong going on. I find it unusually odd that all the Droid phones work perfectly fine on Verizon's network, except the Palm devices. Doesn't anyone else find this fishy?
I thought the community might be interested, as a postscript, in the message I sent Mr. Simon (via my Pre Plus, of course) after I received his letter:
Bruce,
I appreciate your providing a response as we had agreed, but I find the actual response quite unsatisfactory, to say the least.
I have spent hours working with you and your colleagues over the past three or four months, and to have that effort end in what is essentially a flat statement denying the problem exists is, bluntly, stunning. Do I understand your letter to state that, after 8 months of *numerous* reports that 3rd party apps cannot reliably access the hardware GPS on the Pre Plus unless VZ Navigator is launched to its splash screen (even with non-aGPS modes enabled in the hardware), Verizon Wireless is basing its position on one set of tests by David Besemer? Even after I demonstrated the issue to Mr. Besemer on a brand-new Pre Plus he unboxed for me? Even after I experienced the exact issue multiple times today myself? Even after developers have catalogued the way VZ Navigator's software library affects the access by other programs to the GPS hardware? Even though identical hardware from other carriers in the US and elsewhere does not show this problem?
This isn't about my desire to return my own Pre Plus past a 30 day window. This is about an entire set of Verizon Wireless customers with Pre Plus phones that, by accident or otherwise, do not function in accordance with their specifications, or permit use of numerous software products far beyond road navigation that require access to the hardware GPS.
As we had discussed, I intend to share your letter and my own with the broader webOS community as well as with my contacts within Palm, and am considering what other action I might take. Beyond that, I do not intend to further pursue resolving this matter with Verizon Wireless, as it appears that my significant time and efforts have been, and would be, wasted. {Jonathan}
Nice reply. very well thought out.
Thank you. {Jonathan}
I just don't understand this... I know Verizon is a bunch of money grubbing faceless corporate drones (like every big company), but they made the wireless hotspot feature free! If it was just about money, why would they make a feature on the Pre free that they charge for on more popular platforms (like Android)? And then why would they effectively charge for a feature like aGPS that just about everything else does for free?
Not to mention if it were as simple as charging to get fully working aGPS w/no hassle, I might almost suck it up and just live with it. But it's not! If you want to do geocaching, or get a gps track of your biking/running routine, or any other 3rd party gps application, even when paying for their Navigator program you still have to do crazy gyrations on the phone to get everything working properly.
I am a Sprint customer and fan but Verizon offers free WiFi tethering and free upgrades after ten months instead of twelve. Those who choose to violate Sprint's Terms of Service have Verizon partly to thank.
I'm on my 3rd "certified" phone and I actually PAY for Nav and GPS still doesn't work. It will often, but not always, detect where I am if I am still, but start driving and turn by turn stops working, as if I never moved from the start.
1.4.5 didn't fix squat.
Awful.
I still need to restart my phone about once a week to keep VZ Nav working. Another reason I am cancelling it. A cheap stand alone GPS with on board maps will do a better job than VZ Nav and be cheaper over the course of a year.
The issue (VZW's perspective notwithstanding), though, is not how or whether VZ Navigator functions, but whether all other location-enabled apps can work properly on the VZW Pre Plus. Which they cannot. {Jonathan}
That has happened to me. I am going to call and cancel the VZ Nav today.
I am on my second Palm Pre Plus because of the issue with VZnav that mbm mentioned. I canceled my Nav plan with Verizon after 2 weeks of misery and having to buy maps of the Southeast USA while on vacation with my first phone. Verizon's replacement Pre+ GPS performance was even worse than the first. At least with the first one, it would find a satellite after a few minutes of searching. My location was intermittent and would throw VZnav out of turn-by-turn navigation mode but the replacement Pre+ GPS consistently doesn't work at all. I think a Class-Action Lawsuit against Verizon is a great idea. Someone mentioned that the DROID and other VZ phones with GPSes do not have this issue so why pick on the Palm Pre?
I should have mentioned that GPS location services have never worked on both of my Pre+'s.
I'm a happy Sprint customer.
Here's a conspiracy theory: What if Palm actually did try to fix the aGPS problem, and that explains the long delay in releasing 1.4.5??? Huh? Whadya think?
I think it is more like Palm fixed it and Verizon's delay was for them to break it again.
"Mr. Simon also confirmed the VZ Navigator workaround, but stated that it was a "hole" that Verizon Wireless intended to close."
Verizon is know to do things that some would think were underhanded. So as patches are written will Verizon continue to break them?
Sounds like we need to organize a scheduled:
-public complaint againt Verizon and their aGPS restrictions (that anybody on the net will find without even trying)
-class action lawsuit as someone mentioned was done against them w/Blackberry
It's ridiculous that Verizon constantly figures out ways to restrict what hardware does, just so they can try to charge you more.
BTW my cousin's Droid X has some GPS issues also, just not as bad as the restricted PrePlus.
Sounds like we need to organize a scheduled:
-public complaint againt Verizon and their aGPS restrictions (that anybody on the net will find without even trying)
-class action lawsuit as someone mentioned was done against them w/Blackberry
It's ridiculous that Verizon constantly figures out ways to restrict what hardware does, just so they can try to charge you more.
BTW my cousin's Droid X has some GPS issues also, just not as bad as the restricted PrePlus.
I love my PrePlus, but sometimes I wonder why I stay with Verizon...
Sounds like we need to organize a scheduled:
-public complaint againt Verizon and their aGPS restrictions (that anybody on the net will find without even trying)
-class action lawsuit as someone mentioned was done against them w/Blackberry
It's ridiculous that Verizon constantly figures out ways to restrict what hardware does, just so they can try to charge you more.
BTW my cousin's Droid X has some GPS issues also, just not as bad as the restricted PrePlus.
Ha, I'll speculate enough for everyone. This is the same Verizon that completely removed the Google search bar from their version of the Samsung Galaxy S (you know, an ANDROID device) and replaced it with Bing. ON PURPOSE doesn't even begin to cover it. Verizon's got whole departments devoted to finding specific ways to eff over each device.
Sounds like we need to organize a scheduled:
-public complaint againt Verizon and their aGPS restrictions (that anybody on the net will find without even trying)
-class action lawsuit as someone mentioned was done against them w/Blackberry
It's ridiculous that Verizon constantly figures out ways to restrict what hardware does, just so they can try to charge you more.
BTW my cousin's Droid X has some GPS issues also, just not as bad as the restricted PrePlus.
I agree.
I think we also need to get as much press involved as possible. That means places like cnet, pc mag etc. With a clear, concise message that middle america can understand. i.e. that its not the "phone that sux for gps" its verizon that is to blame and that "for whatever reason" VZ navigator works fine.
If Dieter or anyone else has connections to other press outlets this could be a good help. Bad press could force their (VZ) hand so to speak.
I'll take free mobil hotspot over free turn by turn GPS, I use that more.
Phone GPS is poor compaired to deadicated GPS anyway.
That being said; not having a gimped phone would be nice.
(Side note: if you stay with Sprint long enough, they will take two months off your contract to upgrade. I was with them for almost 9 years)
"I'll take free mobil hotspot over free turn by turn GPS, I use that more."
There are ways to have both.... So id rather have unhobbled GPS (I dont know of any easy fix) and then add on the mobile hot spot.
+1, though like many I agree that functionality should not be crippled in the first place. But I'm used to it as a former VZW BlackBerry user.
My friend with the $850 3G 64GB iPad was totally knocked out when she was able to browse the 'net using my Palm Pre as a gateway because AT&T couldn't get enough signal to the iPad and there was no other wireless network in range.
Yes, I'll get way more mileage out of free Mobile Hotspot than I will GPS. But there's no guarantee it'll last for any substantial amount time, is there?
while I agree that phone gps isn't that accurate, I typically take advantage of GPS on multiple apps, like YP - where I can search for nearby restaurants or food or other services. I use my gps for golf applications, etc. So there's definitely a need.
Verizon is a for-profit corporation who does everything to maximize profits and keep the stock price moving in the positive direction. Many if not most of us, myself included also work for for-profit corporations and enjoy, myself included, the paycheck we receive. God bless America, I wouldn't have it any other way.
That being said, consumers have tools and resources to help corporations change their practices for the better. Verizon responded to a class action lawsuit in the past and it's time for us to use this tool again to help Verizon see the light on this moronic habit of hobbling phones in order to profit on sales of the only real working application.
I have no idea how to start a class action lawsuit, so I'll start with a thread and move from there to get the webOS community, Verizon customers specifically, organized in order to get this started. Jonathan's has made a yeoman
I have long hated Verizon, but it has mostly been without proper justification. It started with their outrageous data plan pricing and sort of stuck. Now I know I my opinion is well justified.
@Verizon Responds: There's a Map For That!
If only the #Pre Plus' GPS worked right. #VZWgpsfail
http://img.ly/24SZ
I've found that Verizon's technical support is among the worst you'll find anywhere on the planet. If your problem can't be found on a flowchart hanging in their cubicle the support person is generally useless.
In those Verizon commercials, you always have the customer using the phone, and a jillion support people standing around in the background, smiling into the camera. I always kinda found that amusing because that's probably pretty close to real life - jillions of support people, posing as if they're actually helpful.
I would be willing to contribute up to $100 to a pool for anyone who would love to make an "official" commercial from this experience to broadcast on national television. I think if we had enough contributors, we could make this happen. Verizon needs to realize that people are fed up and are willing to pay to bring truth. I think a publicity stunt like this may make them hurt more than they hurt us.
I can envision a commercial that starts out much like the "there's a map for that" commercial - then make a record scratching sound and say something like "wait a minute... what good is a 'map for that' if Verizon won't even give you one?" Then go into this story.
I'm sure there's better ideas, but I'd back anyone who would want to put this together. Maybe that fx guy who did an awesome pre commercial!
I'm beginning to wonder if this is just another one of those things Verizon is doing to get rid of Palm users on their network. Droid works just fine. Verizon and Google logos appear everywhere together. When the 700 mhz band was being bid by Google, didn't Verizon win it? It's making me wonder if there was some "agreement" between the two companies.
While class action appears applicable, I would suggest that antitrust may be more applicable. Specifically, restraint of trade. I don't think it is legal to require VZ Nav to use a 'standard' function of WebOS. It would be like GM requiring a GM manufactured oil filter. I think the laws are clear on this.
As to not leaving VZ because of their cancel fee, seems to me an argument for breach of contract would be worth investigating.
After being on Verizon since the mid-90's I switched to Sprint specifically for the Pre. I was considering switching back once my Sprint contract is up but maybe I will rethink that now. I was hoping Verizon's new acceptance of decent smart phones like the Pre and the Android phones signaled a new attitude there (along with some promise to be more open or something -- did I imagine that?) but I guess I was wrong. SOS.
Just canceled my VZNav. Eat me VZ. This is a retarded way to do business and then expect to keep customers.
We already know your entire management staff feel it's end users are idiots who don't want features or options. Your own CEO has even stated as much in the past in public. Not that you are reading this and even care.
i have had my pre since feb, and i refuse to use vz navigator! anyone know of a good gps program that works around vz navigator?
Ya Garmin :) $99+ one time charge for hardware you pick. You can get updates through um...ya there are updates out there.
Thanks, had one and didnt like it. i want to be able to have gps on my pre like its supposed to.
Shared by John Gruber (Daring Fireball, http://daringfireball.net/):
Fighting The Wrong Fight (hint we should be looking at the carriers)
http://eliainsider.com/2010/09/14/fighting-the-wrong-fight/
Near another Verizon related story:
Verizon launching their own Android app store?
http://bit.ly/bBvqYl
The carrier's limit everyone (remember the MMS, tethering, and other limitations on the AT&T iPhone?). For devices available on multiple carriers, the additional question to ask (in addition to coverage and service), is who is going to let me use all the capabilities of the device? I remember when Verizon crippled Bluetooth capabilities years ago on my old "feature" phone. This GPS one boggles the mind.
Jonathan,
Thanks for all your time, effort and tact on this issue (and at times dealing with some heat from some less than appreciative precentral members).
What galls me even beyond the non admission that there is an issue (so of course nothing to fix), is that Verizon would then actually expend the effort to "patch" the one workaround we have to improve the situation which is to at least temporarily activate GPS by invoking the VZ Nav application, a method used in the (great attempt at a) GPS Fix application.
If that doesn't show that they aren't greedy ^&*&%%&'s than I don't know what does.
Why does Palm/HP put up with this?
Verizon accepted their phone for distribution and then modified the phone in such a way as to provide an unsatisfactory user experience. This has damaged Palm/HPs reputation as a phone provider. It also results in less than planned phone sales by Palm/HP which certainly contributed to the downfall of Palm as a standalone company.
Does Palm/HP management have a problem with this kind of treatment by a distributor of their product?
Do any former Palm shareholders have a problem with Verizon playing a role in bringing down their company?
Whether Verizon's initial actions in removing GPS functionality were intentional or the result of incompetence is in question. However, their refusal to fix the problem after 8 months is obviously deliberate.
I have had both Verizon and AT&T in the past. Verizon had awesome coverage and I enjoyed the clarity of the calls on a CDMA network after I switched to GSM with AT&T for a Treo 750. The GSM noise took a while for me to get used to and I was content until I found out about the Pre being released on Sprint, which was back on a CDMA network.
While I was with VZW I totally saw the many ways they try to sap more money from their customers. Even with the Razor, there were so many functions that were handicapped compared to the same phone on other networks. I just got tired of them trying to overcharge me and all sorts of issues that were re-occurring. AT&T cost about the same but the Treo at least wasn't really crippled due to carrier software, I could even tether my 3g connection with my computer.
Overall I've been the most content with Sprint. It's back on a CDMA network which sounds better to me and it's cheaper to get more than the other 2 big carriers are offering. There's a bit of a sacrifice with coverage, but thanks to a patch I got from the homebrew community here, I can force it to roam. If you think about it, one of the only other CDMA carriers is VZW so in most cases you end up roaming on their network. Unfortunately that puts you in 1g for data but at least I can get a good call through if I need to.
I love VZW for having great coverage that I can tap into as a Sprint customer! LOL But I pretty much have resolved that I will never go back to them. That's my 3cents.
Rather than admitting there is a problem and either fixing it or giving us other options Verizon is using the contract to stick it to the Pre Plus users.
One possible hole in their contract that we could exploit is unlimited data usage. How about if we all started using as much data as possible until this is fixed. I'm not sure what uses the most data, but perhaps YouTube? I'm looking into finding a really long video and having it play all the time the phone is on the touchstone.
Anyone have an idea of how to use more data? Perhaps we can turn their contract against them for a change.
Let's see, there are 40,000+ mins in a month....
It looks like Verizon's lawyers are concerned that they are vulnerable were there to be a lawsuit. If you read the paragraph in Verizon's response:
A secondary issue raised by your August 25, 2010 memorandum was the disclosure regarding aGPS and GPS on the Verizon Wireless website. At the time you wrote, the disclosure read
This is far worse than admitting there is an issue that needs to be fixed. The only issue they admitted to fixing is that you can get the GPS to work by launching VZNavigator even without paying (the "hole"). VZW offering their own APIs can only mean they intend to charge extra for GPS functionality.
So GPS will be the new tethering. They probably figure that more people are interested in the GPS functionality than mobile hotspot, so it's a bigger potential income stream.
Serious question. Can someone help me understand the problem here?
I open Google Maps. It asks to locate me. The dot zeroes in on my location within approximately 15 feet. It follows me as I move.
What exactly is VZW nerfing?
Sprint ticks me of sometimes but they never drive me up the wall the way VZW can. I love their coverage in my area but hate the way they nickel and dime people to death.
SolarEclipse, if you are a Verizon Pre Plus user and your phone reliably works as you have described, and you do not need to open Verizon Navigator to make it work as described, consider yourself very lucky. When did you purchase your phone? Are you using any GPS patches?
If you'd like to do something about this to help out Verizon webOS users, and to prevent this sort of shady behavior from Verizon (or any other carriers for that matter), please consider taking a few minutes to join this thread so that we can get a concerted effort to get the words out this coming Monday September 20th, 2010.
http://bit.ly/aH3mOw
thx!
I have a question: does that mean that 911 emergency call location also doesn't work? Because if that doesn't work, wasn't that made a legal requirement a couple of years ago?
How do you know for sure it's Verizon and not a hardware issue with the Pre Plus?
I just updated the GPS capabilities of my Palm Pre Plus on Verizon using Ebag's walk through in the link below and now my location is acquired within seconds with "Use Google Services" disabled to within several feet of my actual location. It is a bit involved, but worth the work if you really want to get the best performance out of your device. It is really a shame that the phones aren't shipped with these capabilities enabled by default.
http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre-tips-information-resources/206982-...
Easy link:
http://bit.ly/cqQOVj
I got mine working using the same system. After reboot, I got an accurate lock (after about 30sec - 1min) without opening VZNav. Battery drain was running at over -600mA when using the Google Maps app. So, that is something to keep in mind.