What causes those recurring webOS updates and how to fix it 59
Sat, 24 Oct 2009 12:09 pm EDT 
Since webOS 1.2.0 landed, many readers have reported to us that they keep getting webOS update notifications, even though they installed the update the first (or second or third) time it asked. We’ve been puzzled for an answer and the only thing we could think of was that somehow their update installation had gone screwy and the Update app had detected that something was wrong and decided to redownload and reinstall the update just to be safe.
As it turns out, we were thinking in the right area, but not quite specific enough. Our man Chuq von Rospach of Palm chimed in on our forums with the answer: something that you installed (i.e. a homebrew app) put a file (or files) into the root folder and the Update app is seeing that as something wrong.
Sadly, deleting the app won’t fix the problem, nor will installing that update the phone keeps begging for. Even running the WebOS Repair Utility won’t make it all better, as that only looks for changed files, not added files. The only way to fix it is to run the webOS Doctor and start from scratch. The Doctor is available from Palm.com - be sure that you get the version applicable to your carrier (we wouldn't want you to flash an O2 Pre with a Sprint ROM and have a shiny, but worthless, paperweight).
Now don’t be afraid of homebrew apps, as only a few apps actually install things into the root directory (we’re advising our developers to update their apps accordingly if needed), but if you’re having this problem, there’s your depressing solution: doctor your phone. Hopefully future webOS updates will include and update to the Updates app that will only check for corrupted installs and not construe new files as broken files and try to download a new update (too many updates in this sentence).
59 Comments
This has never happened to me since the update once!
Well, goody for you. It hasn't happened to me either, but it apparently has happened to others. Chill out.
Why wipe the whole Pre with webOSDoctor? If stuff's being installed in the root directory of the Pre, use terminal access via the SDK and/or Putty to just go in and remove what's not supposed to be there.
Can we get a list of the homebrew apps that are installing files into the root folder?
My question as well. A list of the apps that cause this would be great.
Here's the list:
- Sprint apps on non-Sprint (which I'm personally not convinced would cause the error given on the Sprint ROM, they're installed to root anyway)
- MyTether free install script
- MyTether paid version (from what I've been told
Surely there is a way to UN-do whatever MyTether did to the root directory without having to resort to webOS Doctor. Or will that require another "donation?"
MyTether didn't do anything to the root directory, it installed itself to the root partition. You can uninstall it, though from what Chuq says, that wouldn't fix the issue, which makes me wonder if root partition packages are tracked by a system on-device.
I'm glad there is *Finally* someone to back up my thoughts on the 'update issue' that isn't really an 'issue'. I had a few posts on the forums already about users complaining that something was wrong with the WebOS when it was their own tampering that was the problem. Or more specifically their own inability to understand that homebrew is a form of tweaking and with it comes risks that they are unable to comprehend.
And yes, WebOSDoctor is the only way, specifically because 99.999999% of the people having the problem could not even begin to understand how to fire up a terminal access window without explicit instructions. This is a joe-6pack site...not an elite developers site.
Try to remember that.
Actually, I think the vast majority of people who install patches and homebrew are fully aware of the risk/benefit trade-off. And when something bad happens as a result of the risk, that does *not* mean it "...isn't really an issue." You should really step down from the soapbox; we've heard your lecture enough times already, and it's not helpful.
If you were reading the boards on a regular basis, you would find that the "vast majority" of the threads are hijacked by users with 'problems'. Ultimately these 'problems' are of their own creation from downloading and installing Homebrew/tweaks/themes. This simple logic flies in the face of your own statements.
The majority of users are NOT aware of the risks. Hence..... the story on the front page of this site addressing one of these issues.
I'm flattered that you find my 'told you so' post so distressing that you labeled me as a 'soapbox speaker'. I hate to say it, but if I was on a pedestal, maybe more users would have listened and taken their 'issues/problems' to the appropriate threads instead of clouding the waters with the assumption it is a WebOS issue.
I'm a joe-six-pack user. I have absolutely no idea how to root my Pre or open a terminal window. And I will say that you, CanadianPre, have some of the most annoying, insulting, unhelpful posts I have seen. Please don't tell me or my many friends who are Pre-users that we're too stupid to be aware of and understand the risks of Homebrew apps. We are and we do. We appreciate immensely the hard work of all the Homebrew contributors ... too many to mention here. Your posts unnecessarily and unjustifiably insult both me and them.
BubbaHooska, I'm sorry you find my posts insulting to your intelligence when that is not the intent. Feel free to blame my poor of communication skills if you will.
The point of my posts is that if there is ever any issue with the a phone in the hands of users like yourself, the first thing users like yourself do, is make multiple threads every where possible about how your phone is no longer working and that it Palm's responsibility to fix it because you are a paying customer.
Instead of listing all information about what happened and what is installed on the phone so that people can help correct the issue they do not supply the fact that they have installed any homebrew apps/tweaks/themes/etc. Essentially they believe that the problem could not be associated with the products they installed. After all, it *must* be something else. Especially if they have *paid* for a homebrew app.
So you'll excuse my frustration in dealing with 'joe6pack's posts. I would LOVE it if they limited their problem posts to the homebrew forums, but they always land in other forums, because "it has nothing to do with tweaking/homebrew/modding/themes".
In conclusion I would LOVE to be more constructive...but its tough to do that when the 'users' you are so valiantly trying to defend, never post anything more than 'Palm needs to fix my stuff...cause I paid for it!".
You might not want me to flash my O2 Pre with a Sprint ROM but that is precisely what I am doing at the moment.
Oh yea? What kind of results did you get? Did it even let you do it or did it let you and leave you with possibly a really expensive paper weight that glows for a couple of seconds as it tries it's very best to become a phone. ;)
1.2.1 right ?
removed double post
I don't totally believe this...
My phone I hadn't installed apps to just tweaks, and it wouldn't stop asking.
My Sisters phone had nothing done and was totally stock and it asked about 6 times now.
a Co-workers phone only has dev-mode and MyTeather and it asked at least 2-3 times that he told me about.
Well, that'd explain you're co-worker's phone, but it'd make sense that there are other causes of the issue. Seems Chuq wanted to get the most-common cause out in public spotlight
Any TWEAKS is a modification. Sigh...
Your sisters phone could simply have a currupt download/update file, assuming by stock you mean she has never downloaded ANY homebrew or tweaks.
Simply use the WebOSDoctor and that should correct it.
Either way, their's something wrong in the webos to which the erases cant fix, just run webOS doctor and be done with it.
It's no problem to patch an O2 Pr? with a Sprint ROM - at least the german version. Typing this comment on a German/Sprint 1.2.1 right now ;-)
can we address the issue of 1.2 users that never got the 1.2.1 update message? I'm still running on 1.2 and everytime I use the updates app it always says my phone is up to date.
Your phone update mechanism could simply be borked. If you are concerned enough, you can always use the WebOSDoctor. It won't matter if you have ever loaded or installed any tweaks or homebrew. Just make sure you download the latest WebOSDoctor for your phone and it will install v1.2.1.
Feel free to progress from there. :)
It wouldn't be all that hard to modify the
WebOs Repair Utility to detect new files as
well as modified ones and give an option to
delete.
I'm still not totally convinced that this files in
root partition is the answer though. There
are too many people with bone stock Pres
who are getting re-update notices and of course
thousands with heavily modified Pre's who
are not seeing the problem. It sometimes
takes days even weeks before the re-update notice
so just because someone did something and
they haven't seen it in a while, is unconvincing.
This is another reason why I'm not doing homebrew or patching my Pre. I don't want to had to manage these patches and apps while Palm is still actively adding features and updates to webOS.
Nothing wrong with that choice. :)
I was tweak/homebrew free until after the 1.2.1 version. Mostly because it was so flaky to install/use. The latest versions of the installers are much improved and the homebrew apps offset the fact that being Cdn, we only have 1/2 of the apps that the USA people do.
Wouldn't the proper way to fix it be to fix the update thing to not care about stuff outside of the OS's files. It seems to me that it is the root problem and not our choice of apps and custimizations. Why was it designed to care if something adds a directory or file somewhere other than the application directory. Not to mention why the claim removal of said file or directory doesn't correct the problem if it is the cause. It seems to me like this is one of those things like sprint repair techs blaming anything that isn't preloaded on the device for any problem even if it is not possible for it to cause the problem just so that they don't have to deal with repair or replacement. What I'm seeing here is contradictory evidence from described user experiences that point to the claimed problem not being the root of the problem. Sure doctoring the device fixes it because it wipes it completely clean and installs just like formatting your PC HD and installing the OS again. Isn't it rather funny how you can do that and install everything to how it was before and not have the problem you had to format and install for? I'm curious to see how this plays out as I don't think the root of the problem is what is getting the blame. I understand that using beta software there can be problems but we are too often putting blame on the stuff that it is scaring people away from it and ultimately from the webOS. Do we really want prospective customers to think oh my gosh should I really get a pre or pixi look at all these problems, I'm not going to be able to do what I want with it. All because of a vocal minority or misplaced blames. At least this is the way I see it.
It is entirely feasible to make the logic assumption that a tiny portion of the users receiving OTA updates from Palm end up with a 'bad' install. Unfortunately, assumptions/issues like that are extremely hard to track as the people on this site are typically homebrew/tweakers.
If there ever was a potentially serious issue with the phone, the first thing Palm would need to do is terminate all sideload access(ie. ALL tweaks/homebrew).
Dev's would simply get either a hardware encrypted or specialized ROM. Over the air rotating and changing confirmations could be used to ensure a pretty complete lockdown. That would remove 99% of the users from having problems or accessing anything that would hamper issue causes.
The real problem: THe Palm Pre has been rendered a BRICK by its own manufacturer. Way to go Pre.
http://www.precentral.net/sites/precentral.net/files/articleimages/featu...
I knew it was just a matter of time before you popped up again with the brick comments, TROLL. Do us all a favor and get rid of your Pre and get a Hero or iPhone and stop posting your BS on here.
It is simply not possible to brick the Pre. A brick is a device which cannot be recovered by software means. The Pre can be recovered from 99.999999% of problems by the WebOS Doctor, and the other 0.000001% (so small that has not happened to *anyone* yet, and *cannot* be caused by end-user use of homebrew) can be fixed using an emergency bootloader recovery technique developed by WebOS Internals.
I know not to feed the troll, but the facts need to be stated.
-- Rod
Ensuring the integrity of the device firmware installation is a very intelligent thing for Palm to be doing. The root partition is designed *never* to be modified in the normal operation of an unmodified webO device.
When you are forcibly pushing updates to millions of phones in the field, you don't want to be getting millions of support calls because your latest update happened to collide with some poorly-written piece of homebrew which has no regard for the sanctity of the original webOS firmware installation.
The only way for Palm to guarantee the integrity of the device is to do this check on the root filesystem and force a correction if it is not what is expected.
It is clear that thousands of people are running homebrew installed with Preware with no problems, so the technique that Preware uses to install homebrew is not at fault (and we expected this, because Preware uses *exactly* the same installation locations and ipkg database as the Palm SDK uses - if Preware was to be causing problems with repeated updates, then anyone using the Palm SDK to install a package would also be having problems).
Palm is doing the right thing here.
Note that from day 1, WebOS-Internals wiki instructions and Optware and Preware and the Package Manager Service have always installed packages using "ipkg -o /var install" (which specifically uses the /var partition rather than the root partition) or "ipkg-opt install" (which specifically uses the /opt partition rather than the root partition).
We did this *specifically* to avoid the issue that chuq is identifying.
We also advised other developers who were using the root partition instead of the /var partition to do the same. Most of them saw the rationale and modified their installation procedure to match ours (which, as stated above, matches the installation locations and ipkg database that Palm itself uses for developers that install packages using the official Palm SDK).
Unfortunately, some did not. Specifically, there are some homebrew applications (not listed in any Preware feeds) that are installed using a custom author-provided installer instead of using a standard advanced homebrew installer like Preware, and which use "ipkg install" intead of "ipkg -o /var install" meaning that the Palm ipkg database in the root partition is modified (something that Preware will never do for the reasons chuq states).
These homebrew applications may or may not be the cause of this problem, but it definitely is the first place I would suggest is investigated ...
Of course, there could be many other possible reasons, and I do not want to specifically blame any one application until we know more (which is why I have not named the applications that install directly to the root partition ipkg database) - since we don't have the source code to the updating routines, we can't know what exactly Palm is checking.
-- Rod
One flaw in your excruciatingly long premise.
If Palm's update mechanism were designed to
to do what you think, then it should be fixing
what it thinks to be a corrupted root fs with
each update. It does not. It updates then updates
again and again without actually fixing anything.
So either its algo for detecting corruption
is broken, or the mechanism that
should repair the corruption is broken,
or the whole thing is a false premise and
it's doimg repeated updates for
some other reason.
excellent point.
Don't forget that Palm's engineers probably only have requirement to handle corruptions that can occur on devices that only use apps from the Palm App Catalog. They have no responsibility to make things work for people who install homebrew. That's why we do our best to make sure that homebrew does not trigger behaviour such as this.
It is true that Palm could do things in a way that takes into account what homebrew does, but even then, it seems that it is a minority of people who are having this problem, so it's unlikely to be the "normal" homebrew things which are causing this. And it simply is too much to ask for Palm to handle every single weird homebrew installation method that is out there - I would much rather they concentrate on adding new features and fixing bugs and leave the homebrew community (of which I am a member) to sort itself out.
Are there people who have *never* installed any homebrew, patches, tweaks, mods, themes, etc, and are having this problem? I haven't personally seen any such reports, but I haven't looked too hard either (since it's not happening to me, and I develop and run advanced homebrew apps, patches, etc all the time).
-- Rod
Yes there are reports from those who've never installed
*any* hacks/tweaks/hb apps with the same re-update problem,
both in the comments above, and in the other active threads
that discuss this thread. Such reports are generally
ignored, because they don't fit the tidy theory that the
"hackers are doing this to themselves".
And if Palm were actively looking for modifications to the
root partition to clobber with an update, then it should be
affecting a much much larger number of people, all the time,
as there are a huge number of folks here who've installed
myTether and other tweaks which are installed on, or modify
files on the root fs.
My counter-hypothesis is that this problem is just an ordinary
bug in the update mechanism, that it's affecting people
more or less randomly and that there seems to be a strong
correlation between modified Pres and the re-update problem,
only because there's a much higher percentage of modified
Pre owners who post *here* in the forums.
Someone with a stock Pre generally won't care when they
get re-updated because there are no apps/tweaks/hacks to
break, and even if they did notice, they've little reason to
come here to report it.
A very lucid set of thoughts and ideas. :)
A couple of things that affect your comments though. I have read multiple threads where users swear they are running stock Pre's, and are having problem's. Yet later you find out one of their 'problems' is that their old 'theme' is partially borked or crashes their phone. Strange...don't remember the Pre coming with themes.....
On your 'counter-hypothesis', your suggestion of a 'bug' is logical, but it is statistically more likely that the users encountering the bug are merely suffering from a bad upgrade. One file that is slightly corrupted. In that case it might be beneficial for Palm to introduce a few more checks into the update system but that's where the rest of your comments really strike home. Separating the wheat from the chaff is nigh impossible here from a QA perspective.
The way to root out these people (pun intended) is to say something like this:
If you have done any of the following (this is not an exhaustive list), then you are not running a stock Pre:
Installed any homebrew application (for example, via Preware or filecoaster or WebOS Quick Install (WebOS QI)
Installed any patch (for example, via Preware or WebOS QI or ...)
Installed any theme (for example, via Preware or WebOS QI or ...)
Performed any action that required setting your Pre to developer mode.
That is, if you have *never* set your Pre into development mode, there's a very good chance that you are running at stock Pre.
I don't know whatz the trouble.....I never get this.....and I have installed some tweaks.....could just be ur phones....
can anyone help me out. i been having problems with the fowarding on the pre. i tap on the message and it asks if to foward or not and i press yes and thats it nothing happens. the phone getts stuck there and i would have to close the page and reopen the text message in order to continue with my messaging. if anyone has a solution that could help me out that would be great.
alechuga0459 you are deffinatly asking in the wrong place! Next time try the forums that's what they are there for...lol I've never had my Pre ask for an update...when I got mine earlier this week the first thing I did was run update
novaterm
cd /usr/bin
chmod -x UpdateDaemon
killall UpdateDaemon
Problem solved (thanks WebOS Internals)
Ya, that's what I've done.
I figure someone else will eventually get to the
true root of this problem (so to speak) and
I'll re-enable the update mechanism then.
Anyone who has a hacked/tweaked Pre should turn
off the Update mechanism anyway, as they'll want time
to uninstall their tweaks/hacks or wait for the updated
versions of the patches and such before applying the next
WebOS version.
Mine updated three times shortly after they pushed the update, but hasn't attempted since.
I have the Tethering app installed. I had the old version &
then got upgraded to the newer version 2.0.2. I also have the fileCoaster app and about 10 apps installed from that. I have no patches.
It was my understanding that the 'tethering app' is one of the apps that does not 'comply' with current homebrew installations and the reason for a seperate install package/procedure/etc. As far as I know the only way it CAN function is to PATCH your WebOS.
I could be wrong about this as my information is about 2-3weeks old and that's like months in this world. :)
I found the problem homebrew app causing this...It is Auto Correct installed via web OS quick install. I installed this app yesterday (love it by the way for shortcuts) and since that moment my pre is saying I am not updated to 1.2.1 web OS...although system info says that I am.
I never installed autocorrect and I have the problem
Same. WebOSDoctor did fix the issue, but none of my contacts came back.
If you use a sprint rom on an o2 pre, will it work on sprint?
This still doesn't explain why all my contacts I added before 1.2.1 got erased when I WebOSDoctored my phone. I contacts palm about the issue. Never received a call back. I'm heading to Sprint soon to see if I can get a replacement (other issues... battery issue, oreo effect, missing calls when I have full service) or show them my tech support conversation with Palm and see if I can switch to the HTC hero. I'm pretty fed up with Palm's lack of support, poor QA.
For the record: MyTether was not on my phone when I had the update issue. Its on there now, but I've never used to app.
Possible bug in Palm's OTA update mechanism would certainly be worth looking at as closely as any single/combination of user installed tweaks/apps/themes, especially if those experiencing issues received the 1.2.1 update OTA rather then while their Pres were connected via wi-fi...
When you include the WebOSDoctor fix seems to resolve the problem, I'm suggesting that the delivery method/verification may be the root cause rather then some individual/combination of tweaks/patches/apps/themes. It may not be a bug at all... merely the Pre reporting a condition that it can't resolve without outside assistance?
My Pre was one of the ones doing the whole re-install the update even though I had installed it 3 times. I had to do a complete reset with webOS anyways for other reasons but that stopped the message to update, even though I put all my patches back on my Pre.
I added Mafia Wars, Reset Button, Palm Reader(free version), Fitness Tracker, Debt Free, and Easy Pulse this morning via Preware. I think those are the correct names. My phone just notified me of the 1.2.1 update I currently have installed. I used Preware to remove each one and then my theme. Ran emergency patch recovery via Preware. Turned on Developer Mode and removed GNU Patch via webosquickinstall. I went to tweeks to make sure all patches were removed. There was one still showing on the first page, though I can't recall what it was. When I unchecked it webosqi reinstalled the GNU patch in order to remove the patch. I left the GNU patch installed. When the phone finished resetting I allowed the update to run and install. Once completed I ran Updates. No new updates showed up. Guess I will have to wait and see if it stops giving me the message. For now I will hold off on reinstalling my themes and patches. If it pops up again on it's own I will have to use webosdoctor. m:mafia lvl 35 dungeon quest lvl 25
I am a UK owner and had 1.1.3 running when bought and the phone asked me on Friday to update to 1.1.3
Anyone else have this?
I'm trying to kill that UpdateDaemon...
I'm trying to use WebOS Quick Install's command line - and it doesn't even let me change directories w/ the "cd /usr/bin" - am I horribly missing something?
Here is my latest speculation about why I was having this problem:
1. Because of crashes that cause data corruption when the phone is pulled out of the Quick install USB computer attachment without using windows start, remove drive. I find I cannot remove the phone though since it will let me remove the "d" drive but not the "novacom connection"...even when all programs on the laptop are closed...so after pulling usb plug phone was giving me data recovery error message a couple of times. So... recently I had started quick resetting the phone so I could pull the usb when I could not get novacom to let go of the phone, and this saved me the data corruption corrected error on the phone. Maybe that type of thing causes system errors that triggers Web OS to reinstall OS over old OS? Just a speculation. I have now put everything back including tweaks after OS update and all works fine...update app shows phone is "up to date". This would explain the random issue if it has nothing to do with tweaks but with anyone who is getting corruptions through pulling out of Quick Install and periodically getting data corruptions that Web OS update is noticing. BTW, I should say that the update ran during the night when charging even though I had told it not to when putting on the charger...so all my tweaks were still installed. This morning, after web os update, preware showed tweaks as all still installed when they were not. I ran the "emergency recovery" app in preware, and then reset the phone. All tweaks/patches showed as gone...I then put them all back easily. I think this was easier than having to have removed the one-by-one as above person noted doing! I should also note that this whole update issue started when on wifi internet and not evdo...that is when it checked for OS update...so there may be some truth in above comment about inherent palm problem there. I should also say that after it had downloaded the os update, and when it kept trying to install it, I hooked up to quick install and did the linux command line entry:
cd /usr/bin
chmod -x UpdateDaemon
killall UpdateDaemon
Not sure if that did anything or not...Anyway, it still looks for update when I tell it to and finds none...suspect I might have turned off the way it auto looks for update though if I did the above right.
HEY sorry that im not on subject here but... I tried to activate the "Fwd:Message" for my pre but this STUPID! error thing pops up and at the end it says something about having to "root" Fwd:Messaging... can any! help PORFAVOR!!!
Can't there be some other easier software like Hard Drive Recovery that could actually fix this installation? It's really annoying to keep getting the UPDATE messages. At beginning I tried to delete the app file, but that didn't change anything.