What kind of desktop sync do you want? 53
Fri, 27 Nov 2009 6:35 pm EST 
If the recent mess with Palm Profile backups has shown us anything, it’s that you all still want a desktop sync app. We don’t blame you - the cloud is nice until it starts to rain. With that in mind, we thought it time to take a look at the possibilities for a desktop syncing app, especially with respect to your Palm Profile. The question is “how do we get this data from your webOS phone to your computer?”
There are a couple of options, the most obvious being the classic-style Palm Desktop sync. You plug your phone into the computer, hit a button, and sync away. This provides a backup and sync of your data on your desktop, but it locks you into using Palm Desktop.
Given Palm’s emphasis on syncing with the cloud, we think that if there were any chance of there being desktop syncing it would come from the clouds. So that opens up two possibilities: sync to a proprietary app like Palm Desktop, or simply providing open standard feeds like CalDAV. The later would provide Palm an opportunity to flex their open source muscles by helping the WebDAV group expand to support more feeds, such as contacts, memos, and tasks. It would also take the pressure of building a desktop app off Palm's shoulders - all you would need is any one of several compatible desktop apps to handle the syncing.
Lastly, there’s the Google-esque solution, which would be to provide a way for you to access all of your synced data from the web, through a Palm Profile version of the Google PIM webapps (e.g. Google Contacts, Google Calendar, etc).
So the question we find ourselves pondering is: which would you prefer?
53 Comments
I don't really use desktop apps that would benefit from a sync solution. Even my mail program is just a fat client for GMail.
Now - a real backup solution... that'd be worth it.
I agree, more important than a symc is a backup/archive feature. In a special set of circumstancs, a corrupted database or *lost* data might be assumed as *deleted* and the sync copy will erase itself the next time it syncs. With a backup/archive, you have a higher guarantee of recovery from an extreme situation, like the recent palm profile/upgrade problem or the Danger/Microsoft Sidekick fiasco. The saying goes, your data is only as good as it's most recent backup. Having a cloud sync/backup is handy when resetting/migrationg/recovering from hardware failure etc, but the end-user has no control over the integrity of the cloud and the people running it. Allowing the end-user to manage their own copy of a back, even if a manual process, is still more convenient then having no data as a result of a tiny logic error resulting from an unforseeable circmstance.
I've found the Palm Garnet desktop and apps best,so I've been manually making my "synch".
But Orange (new Palm) likes the cloud. And I think that's great, because it will make it that much easier to transition OUT OF PALM for my next phone.
For me, PocketMirror is the solution.
It syncs Contacts, Calendar and Notes to/from Outlook on the PC.
Contacts and Calendar go straight into the WebOS apps, with Notes going into a fully searchable standalone new Notes app.
Once they do the same for Tasks it will be perfect.
By syncing over WiFi it saves any hassle with USB leads.
I know this will not suit those that work away from home/office a lot, but for more traditional situations it is difficult to beat.
Whole philosophy of palm pre is to fly away from the desktop, and any wire whatsoever too. So your pre is really independent, is just it and the cloud.
If it needs to be done I woulndt want palm to waste resources in going back in time and making a desktop application.
So Id prefer a web front end to manage palm profile data with options to export that data to a file we could download in an open format.
@Muesli_
I completely agree. By not having a desktop chain, I can go anywhere and perform the same. I had my Treo fry on me while traveling and was able to get it repaired but it was wiped in the process. I was stuck w\o any contacts or apps until I could get back to the office.
With EAS and Goog for personal, last time when my Pre screen died, I picked up the replacement and was back in action before I was at the 2nd light from the Sprint store. :) (minus patches of course)
Palm already has a Profile portal on their site, all they need is to add functionality to allow me to see backups, download them, and view\restore files from them.
1) I agree, cloud syncing with
2) multiple back up points with the ability to sync to any of those points.
3) These "cloud points" should be editable or at least explorable.
4) It should make back up of e-mails, notes, music, sms, call logs, calender, pictures, apps
5) Ability to sync these multiple cloud points with the computer (through wifi)
6) Since this is an open source phone, there should be an extra-backup called "Pre-image" that makes an exact image of the pre down to all the patches. This pre-image can be on cloud or through wi-fi on your own PC. It is just like making an image copy of your computer hard drive. Again this should be explorable.
Only is wishes come true :)
Cloud is nice, but nobody guarantees that your date is secure. Also, the interfaces for the Pre calendar and contacts are BRUTAL and ineffective. For professionals with highly sensative info in contacts and calendar, the cloud in its current state is a disaster waiting to happen. If you disagree, send me your 401k or Etrade account info, I'll store it in the cloud for safe keeping for you.
"And in today's technical news, Google revealed a security lapse that has put the private data of 3.2 million users in jeopardy..."
Sometimes, clouds make dangerous lightning or tornados that suck up everything you've got.
I really don't see why we can't have both. Cloud and desktop. Palm can kill a few birds with a desktop app; not only can they make it to sync PIM, they can make it to sync your media (maybe even partner with Amazon MP3) and provide another avenue for software updates ... especially for those with poor EVDO coverage. The cloud would be a backup to your backup. Now that would be the "Palm" thing to do in my opinion and give the company a leg up on the competition.
I don't see why we can't have both, either. The way you get to five 9s reliability (99.999%) is to have a minimum of 3 backups. The more the merrier.
If Palm is truly intending on ONLY doing cloud backup with no local backup... I will truly be disappointed. But of course, other solutions will arise.
I just think it's a shame that a company like Palm is trying to copy this "vendor lock-in" scheme of not really being as open as they look. Palm needs to have worthy backup data in three locations for EACH user. Really, the user should have this himself, but Palm should certainly be helping them find their way as easily as possible... and that would definitely include pointing them to PreCentral.net, too. ;)
Really... what is Palm without 99.999% backup and functional PIM? A ghost.
For a second I thought Kevin got lost in the cloud too.
Unless I can sync music, photos and soon videos onto the Pre from a desktop app, I don't need any more wires. I already have an ipod dock, a camera usb, blackberry usb, and I don't need another usb for the Pre, when I get get it from Verizon. Soon, I hope.
I personally came from the iPhone world and liked the idea of backing up all of my data to a server that, in turn, updated my computer at home. Then if anything happened to my phone, I could download everything from the server to my new device, or if anything happened to the server, all of my information was safe on my MacBook Pro at home.
The best way to do this, that I have found, has been with Google. Calendars and Contacts all sync to the Google servers and they sync with address book, and iCal on my Mac. Email is obviously through Gmail and I am using Mail at home. Through this setup, I have everything I need in a mobile device!
Use use Act! for my business. Eveything so far seems like a work-around and misses lots of info like contact updates and makes several duplicates of events. I liked good old Act! to Palm Hotsync.
Something similar for Pre would be outstanding.
If a desktop sync were available, I would want something that was:
1) Open Source, so it can be worked on by multiple people in many different ways. It could evolve and grow.
2) Open Protocol, so everyone knows how it works. Then there could be more than one type of sync program, independent of the WAY it talks (just like it was with the old PalmOS).
3) Multiplatform, so it will run on all operating systems. Linux, MacOS, MS-Windows, etc.
4) Wireless: can sync not only through cables, but also over WiFi/TCP, and perhaps anywhere.
5) Independent, not requiring or depending on some other company's network or services (like Google or Palm).
Well, you asked us what we would want :)
Having web access to my synced data is probably the only thing I miss about my older phones. I think that was the best way to back up my data because I could edit my contacts and calendar over the net from anywhere and it would automatically by on the phone when I saved. And for a little extra security there was always the option to download your data to your computer from the web.
I already use a similar setup to the commenter above: sync to Google, and from there to my Mac. Google takes care of my mail, contacts, and calendar (all of which then sync to my desktop via Mail.app, Address Book, and iCal seemlessly). I use Evernote for my notes, which syncs to the cloud and back down to my desktop via Evernote's desktop app.
This gives me the best of both world: cloud-accessible, always connected backup with no wires -- but also offline access to my information on my Mac.
Oh, and I grab Podcasts with Dr. Podder, so don't even need to connect to a computer for that, either. The only thing I'm missing is a way to load music on the Pre without connecting a cable.
Looks like I just missed this comment. I do the exact same thing. It's a perfect set up. Evernote as well for important notes, but the majority of the notes I keep in the notes app are ok to lose. If something is important, it will be synced with Evernote.
I use a setup as the one above. I am happy with Pandora for music and net2streams. It would be great if there were a WIFI method of putting my music on my Pre. I send my pictures to photobucket for backup off of my Pre. If there was a problem with the Cloud backup though, I do agree it would be nice to have a backup elsewhere to restore my phone if necessary.
Through four phones and numerous reinstalls, I have never lost data on my iPhone. The iTunes sync is the industry standard for desktop sync, and MobileMe is unmatched for the cloud. Between the two, it is almost impossible to lose anything, including your personal settings and the apps you purchase. When I walk out of an Apple store with a new phone, it has my emails, contacts, and calendars on it before I leave the store. I would never even consider a phone that didn't have this level of sync capability.
I can understand having a cloud solution as a supplement. But having no desktop sync seems like lunacy to me.
I've just detailed a way I do the same thing as you without paying for MobileMe (with the exception of notes though, but I really can do without backing up those) Should be below.
For the cost of iphone service, they should follow you around with your contacts printed out on a gold leaf black book.
For contacts, calendar, and email, I currently use Apple Mail with IMAP (using Google Apps), iCal with (Google Apps) for my calendar, and Address Book synced to my Google App domain. Apple and Google have provided the tools for me to sync my contacts, email and calendar, so I just use that, and it's all pushed from one device to the other whenever a change is made.
I then use dropbox to back up my Address Book and Calendar using Apple's Backup utility. Dropbox also maintains a copy on my computer so I can have access to those files even when there is no internet connection.
Seems like the best route to go, at least for Mac users. Set up my pre and the wife's this way. Love it. Seemless and works without having to think about anything.
I personally don't like the cloud concept for data at all. It might be useful as a processing tool, but as a backup solution, I'm not a fan. At least not as a first line of defense.
I don't understand why big companies can't come to grips with people wanting control over their own data. If I mess up and lose my own data, well then I'm an idiot and should have been more careful. If Palm loses all of my data then I'm furious in the extreme. Possibly to the point of litigation if I depend on my phone for business (which I don't).
To me this argument is loosely related to the concept of DRM. I want to own my own data. I want to know that 20 years from now I still own that same data and it can still be accessed. I don't want to be dependent on some company to be able to get at it.
Go install Thunderbird or Outlook or any other desktop email client, and sync it with your Google account. Problem solved. If I had to bet on whether your desktop or Google would still be around in 20 years, I would be on Google.
If there's anything wrong with Palm's solution, it's that they haven't done a good job of explaining the concept of cloud computing to people coming from the old fashioned desktop-centric world.
Lets keep it simple PALM - your desktop never failed me in any sense. A cloud backup is a great idea. Attaching the cloud to my desktop is perfect. If my desktop fries - I have the cloud. If the cloud bursts then I have my desktop. It doesn't get any easier!! And while your at it - how about a better PIM? Would this be asking too much??
It's always been possible to "attach the cloud to my desktop" - that's kind of the point of the whole thing.
I want MobileMe on my Palm Pre
read my comment above and you've got mobile me on the pre and for free (rhymes, wow,)
Okay, even though I'm a super Palm fan boy, I have always had a problem with Palm's PIM software. At some point, before I got to Palm devices, they said, we can't compete with Outlook or ACT so lets not try, and that's too bad.
They could have made Palm Desktop a true competitor to Outlook, but they didn't. I'm sure they had very valid reasons; why spend the dwindling resources that they have to compete with Microsoft. Fair enough, but...
Why didn't Palm just buy Agendus? From my limited experience with it in the Treo 700p days, I found it extremely functional. Maybe a little too functional, but solid programming. Maybe they don't have the money to buy Agendus, but even making it a launch partner would be better than nothing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm using Google Calendar, and I have now become a cloud convert, but if Palm had put Agendus on every Pre with a desktop download and wifi sync, then THAT would be something. Anybody else remember Agendus?
I use Agendus (Palm Desktop) syncing with Companion Link up to Google calendar and then to my Pre. I would love to see Agendus on my pre
There are a few things that Agenus could improve on but there are a Tonne of things they got bang on.
Are they working on a WebOS version?
Anybody know?
phone to cloud and be able to go online and make a back up or sync to my address book and ical would be perfect!!! plain and simple. for either a sync or just a back up copy to save on my desktop is an easy and reasonable solution.
that way i dont need any extra software to handle all of that, wont have to worry about dealing with missing sync or buying any other software that SHOULD BE A NATIVE FUNCTION. people like to keep there data saved and synced, so why not make it easy to sync with outlook or macs address book and ical. then form there have those synced to google or what ever email/calendar client then to your phone. the 3 prime devices we use. COMPUTER -> WEB EMAIL/CALENDAR -> PHONE, its SHOULD be a standard to have sync ability with all 3, PERIOD!!
I don't see how people are satisfied with 'I sync my x via y and then use z and I then sync my a with b but I can't yet sync w' relying on google or outlook or exchange or what ever, relying on third party software/servers to do what Palm should have had the Pre do out of the box: back up everything to a desktop app. One piece of software supported by Palm with no concerns about anyone's servers going down and no concerns about file format changes that 3rd parties don't know about. And, good grief why is there not an SD card backup for when you are away from your computer or the cloud is not accessable. The cloud saves folks who don't understand why one backs up anything but it does not always save them. We should not have be waiting around for some one other than Palm to do this crucial task.
I don't see how people have absolutely no concern whatsoever about their privacy. Seems like 99% of people are willing to hand over any type of information about themselves and others, in exchange for convenience.
Google- now has the potential to watch all your desktop searching at home, at work, on your phone. Watch all the sites you go to at home, at work, on your phone (cookies, adsense, and referrals). Knows all your contacts (Google contacts). Knows where you are most of the time (GPS). Knows what you buy (Google checkout). Has access to all your Email (Google Mail). Can watch your instant messaging (Google IM). Knows where you live and want to go (Google Maps). Etc, etc.
Quite scary
privacy is a myth. People should just get over it.
Well, for me, I have quality desktop apps that I already like such as Apple Mail, Address Book, and iCal. Why would I want some half baked solution to sync stuff up together. Those products already do that for me... and it works.
I had problems with 3-way sync: Google Calendar, Pre, and Outlook. I was one of the people who lost stuff syncing between my Pre and Google calendar after my syncing that way had been working fine for about 2 months(I hope it was not a pre-Droid release conspiracy against the Pre). I used gSyncit for a while and also tried CompanionLink but also had some issues and now I just sync my calendar, contacts, notes (& soon tasks) via USB (no cables!) with PocketMirror. PocketMirror is fantastic!!! I used an older version with my Palm Vx years ago. My email is still through Gmail (IMAP with Outlook), Sports calendars through Yahoo but all of my important calendar and contact stuff is no longer in the cloud. I back up my Outlook data frequently because I always like to have at least 2 copies of all of my data. If you have multiple copies of your data you are ALWAYS better off. I have lost stuff in the past due to computer crashes, etc. and the cloud is NOT immune to that. With the cloud remember: the bigger they are, the harder they fall.
Been using Palm devices since 1997. The Pre is the first time they "expect" us to share our calendar, contacts and such like with "unknown third party cloud providers" and I am really upset by that fact. I want my Pre to do USB / BlueTooth /WiFi local desktop syncing to Palm Desktop. Even the 3rd party apps that claim to do this, have little clauses, where they say "you connect to our servers first and then we connect you to your PC to do the sync" - why does everyone want to get involved in my Syncing? What deals did Palm sign up to with Google? What does Google do with all our information...
It's a simple request - local syncing without anyone else involved.
Palm have invested so much time in trying to make the Pre appear like an iPod to iTunes... for what?
Why could Palm not spend a little bit of (quality) time making a "Palm m505" or "Palm Centro" interface for the Palm Pre - then we could sync the Palm Pre with the Palm Desktop - the Palm Desktop would think that it is syncing with an nice old Palm m505 or Centro or whatever.
I am sure the USB organisation wouldn't flame Palm for doing that ;-)
Of course if we were able to use WebOS 1.1.3 with Classic 2.01 then we could have a Centro on our Palm pre - but Classic Sync doesn't work on WebOS 1.1.3.
Of course if we were able to BUY Classic with webOS 1.3.1 in Europe then we could use Classic Sync with the desktop. But we can't buy any paid Apps in Europe.
Stroke of Genious Palm.
One can't help bein left feeling there is a "submarine agenda" going on here stopping us from using our devices te way we want to.
Really bummed European Palm Pre user.
From reading the comments, and from my own experience, it seems you could make the largest number of people happy with some kind of three-way sync, which I'll call a "golden triangle" approach:
Phone cloud something that's not a cloud
My ideal scenario:
Pre Gmail/Contacts Outlook/Desktop
I'm a very long time Outlook user, with a long history of Palm devices, most recently 755p. Due a change in work situation that more or less coincided with my purchase of a Pre in June, I have been migrating from MS Office to heavy use of Gmail, Google Calendar, Gmail contacts and Google Docs.
In so doing, I lose some excellent functionality, esp. in Outlook, but I gain the ability to sit down at any computer and work in the same environment, not to mention sharing docs with my coworkers.
I have my personal domain email set to go through Gmail (in other words, I can use Gmail to send FROM my work address, as well as my personal domain), and I have my Gmail account set up as IMAP in Outlook, meaning that all email is copied to Outlook on my desktop. I can interact with Gmail either on the Pre, or in Gmail or in Outlook, and via IMAP it all syncs nicely. (However, lately Gmail has been acting goofy on my Pre.)
The weak spot is syncing contacts. Using Soocial, I uploaded all of my Outlook contacts (about 3,000) to Gmail, from where they synced with the Pre. Soocial stopped working for me, and now I'm searching for a solution that will make Outlook sync contacts with Gmail.
I have found it much easier to get contacts OUT of Gmail than INTO Gmail. The field mapping for Gmail import is very finicky and I haven't yet found a smooth solution.
Also, I have made extensive use of "categories" in Outlook, which I use to send emails to various groups of people. It's very powerful and easy to do in Outlook.
The categories don't map well to Gmail's contact groups. And I don't think the Pre has any function like this at all. (Using the phone, how would you send a quick email to everybody in your book club?)
There are a lot of improvements needed to the Pre's email, contacts and calendar apps (not the least of which is speed), but what would make me happy right now is a reliable way to sync contacts between the desktop and Gmail (e.g., correctly mapping firstname and lastname, multiple phone numbers and emails per contact, categories, notes, etc.).
Windows Mobile is the benchmaek here. Seamless desktop sync with outlook (and media files) and MyMobile does likewise with the cloud, automatically backing up anything I choose (inc music, phots etc) to the cloud. If I wipe my phone I can restore from my desktop or over the air via Mymobile and unlike apples shoddy Mobileme, its completely free!!!
Might be the benchmark for those who don't mind being locked 100% into Microsoft products.
Having used palms for ever I find that although the various palm sync methods worked fine I would just not remember to sync often enough at my desk. I think my first palm (palm III) automatically synced every time I put it in the cradle.
The google sync for calendar is working well, but I only have the calendar working, it gives me backup, multiple ways to enter information and multiple places to reveiw it.
I've found that in google calendar, I would enter an event for a specific time and then moments later it has been reset for an hour earlier. This is not good.
Make sure your google account isn't set on another time zone.
Two reasons I want a desktop solution:
1. The cloud isn't always there. I sometimes visit relatives or offices that are either in BFE outside the networks or in signal-proof bunkers.
2. The cloud data is unverified. I'm not going to bother to check every day to see if the cloud's backup is complete. Not going to happen. But you know what'd be nice? An MD5 checksum mechanims I could compare to the palmdatabase.db3
So I'm more than happy to let the cloud try and make my life easy but I *need* to have a way to make confirmed archives that I can utilize away from the cloud.
At the moment I'm.....accepting that I can copy the palmdatabase.db3 file to my laptop and have a reasonable backup of my core functionality. Given that sqlite is freeware and runs on all platforms, it seems like it would be easy to whip up a simple front end that would let us confirm all the data in a backup and do csv/tab/pipe delimited output.
Simple question:
Why can't there be a cloud-based version of Palm Desktop? Simply make it using open-standards. Just like Google lets you log into your Google account and have cloud based applications, you could simply log in with a Palm account (or Google) and have access to a Palm Desktop-like contact manager you could sync to. It isn't rocket science, guys.
*clone itunes layout and general functionality (easy podcast downloading and importing from itunes, three columns up top of genre artist album,
*add outlook contacts, calender, tasks compatibility and importing ability as well as Google should people choose to sync with "the cloud."
*Amazon music store purchasing
*Palm app catalog icon
*photo browsers to sync photos.
*For music, What itunes lacks: no hassle background folder monitoring. should be as simple as clicking yes or no.
*video browser, that displays Palm Pre compatibility and file details. If it's not compatible color the detail text in red that is incompatible.
*Playlist should import from Itunes, winamp, with one click.
for columns on the left just
*Hopefully not a resource hog.
Music (Includes audiobooks)
Podcasts
Video
Photo
Contacts
Calender
Tasks
Palm App Catalog
Amazon Music Store
Playlists
Done
looks and ease of use matter. Don't make it some overly complicated software that appeals to only tech geeks. Make it simple and attractive. Importating from other software people use has to be simple. It's about ease of use and making it as no hassle as possible for people to switch from itunes. People will say itunes sucks. Ignore them. It's layout is clean and though it's a resource hog and has plenty of it's own issues. Most people like it. The goal is to get most people. But it's not perfect and someone with vision can make a better, clean, simple desktop platform. Oh and it can't lag when loading media like doubletwist often does. Bottom line it can't fail in most areas. It can't be half ass done. It has to be hands down better then Itunes or just as good. Other then buy stuff form the apple store it has to measure up or people will stay with itunes. They couldn't release it like the Pre with features like video recording or a voice recorder missing. That is it can't come out without music features and expect people to sit and wait. won't happen. you'll be stuck with just the fanboys and they alone don't make blockbusters of cell phone products.
Your first two words said it all; "Clone iTunes." That seems to be the solution to all of Palm's problems. They set out to make a better iPhone by grabbing as much of the form factor and interface as they could but tacking on a keyboard. They tried to simply steal iTunes functionality by hacking iTunes. Your strategy is almost the same as Palm's. You say "clone iTune"; Palm says, "Steal iTunes". Either way, it is shameful. If you want iTunes sync, buy the hardware it was made to run on. KIRFing someone else's products is not competition; it's envy.
Using PocketMirror. It does 90% of what I want. The remaining 10% are syncing tasks (has been promised in the next few weeks), USB sync (for when I'm away from my home wifi network), and support for multiple calendars or Outlook categories (probably as multiple calendars). It would also be nice to have a full system backup.
I'm not really interested in media sync, I like the complete control I get from drag-and-drop. Although playlists (NOT from iTunes) would be nice.
I know this thread is dead, but has anyone tried the Missing Sync? Any problems?
Interesting, 159 people voted that they use a 3rd party app.
However PocketMirror alone has been downloaded 118,828 times.
That may give us folks at PreCentral the good old H2G2 "Total Perspective Vortex" effect :)
No local sync?
So ... Palm's another example for companies that know exactly what their customers (have to) want ...
My TX has all I need. Pre doesn't offer me the continuity as former Palms (and other PalmOS devices).
Interface different to PalmOS and _no_ local sync (cloud only, like Androids) - what's the reason to stay at Palm?
Maybe somewhere exists a local sync app to keep the cloud out of the Pre, but I don't want to search and spend money for basic functionality for my needs.
If my TX will die some day, I could switch to Nokia desktop.
Simple.
If there was native Hotsync, I would already had bought Pre.
Instead, Palm Desktop is still usable via Companionlink, but the Sync operation is "two step" because of WebOs limitations, so I keep on Hotsyncing my Palm TX and Palm Desktop 4.2 and wait...